What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Carl Emerson

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Hi Carl-
I am sympathetic to your concern about commercialization, but any such arguments should be grounded on scripture. There is certainly room to critique all kinds of financial abuses and misuses in modern churches and plenty of Biblical grounds to do so. However, I disagree with your use of the Simon Magus story for two reasons:

First, Peter condemns Simon for wanted to "purchase" the power of the Spirit which is freely given to all believers and whose gifts are apportioned among the church as He wills. It is not about remuneration for service.

Additionally, Paul is clear on several occasions that recompense for certain types of service is not only acceptable but right:

In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul equates ruling elders, especially preachers and teachers, with deserving "double honor" - the equivalent of wages in exchange for labor.
"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

To the Corinthians (1 Cor. 9:12-14), although he has never made use of the right, Paul confirms that proclaimers of the gospel deserve to make their living by the gospel (i.e. paid to do it), just like the priests of the temple did.
"Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

Yes as Paul said we have put an obstacle in the way of Christ.

I am promoting the better way that Paul committed to.

The way that rewards fruitful service by love not obligation.

We have a model in Acts to journey back to.

Then we will again see folks by the thousands come into the Kingdom.

We must return to this first love.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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Then your church is the exception; not the rule is it? Therefore it is indeed true that the vast majority of church services function otherwise.
No, actually my church follows the same Book of Worship and supplemental books used by most ELCA churches. We are not an exception. You will see what I described at pretty much any ELCA church that you visit.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Simon Magus story certainly is relevant to this.

We now pay a tithe for a spiritual service.

We were meant to be a community of Jesus love supporting those who He was using to further the gospel.

This is the first love we need to return to.

In returning the church will again impact the world dramatically as before.

Our present system has muted His voice to the world because the world has nothing attractive to see.

The world does not see believers relating together in His love.

Sadly it seems that only persecution will bring about this return - I hope not - we are starting a home fellowship, I hope that our commercial subconsciousness will dissolve in His love.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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Kaon

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Seems like a stretch to fit your narrative. Especially considering what the elders the apostles selected wrote about the authority of Bishops.

Why would Paul be writing to the institutional authority, or ecumenical powers that be when the Word of God Himself spent much of His ministry preaching against what those institutions had become? He was, like all of the "New Testament" upright ones were alluding to things that have already been said many times over - in the "old testament". This is why the alleged "old testament" is necessary if one wants to understand what the Gospel mean.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Why would Paul be writing to the institutional authority, or ecumenical powers that be when the Word of God Himself spent much of His ministry preaching against what those institutions had become? He was, like all of the "New Testament" upright ones were alluding to things that have already been said many times over - in the "old testament". This is why the alleged "old testament" is necessary if one wants to understand what the Gospel mean.

Because the establishments had become corrupt. They didn't start out that way as they were established by God and nothing God founds is imperfect. Not only that but you aren't accounting for the Holy Spirit, who gives men the ability to attain true righteousness. Just as the spirit dwelt within the apostles in a special way of establishing dogma through Christ's teachings, and they were especially authoritative in that way, so we're the men they appointed as elders. Why even have elders if they aren't there for guidance and leadership. That verse is addressed to the Church and is surrounded by verses aimed at the church.
 
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Justified112

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Paul refused the option of having a wage and for good reason.
Paul was an evangelist most of the time. He was not full time pastor with children to raise and a mortgage. Paul was an itinerate evangelist and chose to make his living by his own hands.

In early acts there was a community of believers that naturally supported eachother.
But you cannot superimpose that on a 21st century western context. What worked back then does not work today. You cannot take a historical narrative like that and make a doctrine out of it. The Bible does not hold up what they did as a model for all Christian communities, for all time. It simply informs us of what they did.

Now we have a business that disconnects us from each other.
Wrong. Churches band together all over the US in their various context to provide community service particularly in the event of a natural disaster. They provide not only disaster relief, but also spearhead initiatives in their communities to help the poor year-round. Churches and pastors do a lot to bless their cities and counties. And they do this in unison, across denominational lines. The fact that these pastors also take a salary has NO negative effect on these efforts.

We are exhorted to return to our first love - the love that flowed, breaking down interpersonal barriers, promoted sharing, no one was in need.
Well, looking at what I just said above, your statement is out of touch with what is actually happening on the ground with local churches and the good they are doing in unison with each other.

Why do we not travel back there - because there is a cost.
I think you need to take a better look at the practical good that congregations are doing in the US and even around the world.

We prefer our lifestyles dictated by commercial demands rather than God.
I doubt you are as qualified, as you imagine yourself to be, to sit in judgement on the rest of us.

So we have little impact on the world because the world sees no visible love to praise God about and be drawn into the kingdom.
Again, that statement is out of touch with what is really happening all over this country.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Im not judging anyone - Just being a sign post.

I have tasted this approach to fellowship about 30 years ago and seen the fruit.

You talk of qualifications - we are in danger of missing His voice when we fail to give ear to the least.

I have never said we should leave those called to serve Him full time, high and dry.
It is how we do it that I am questioning.

I am not judging any particular church but if the sandal fits...

If not - move on...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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Oldmantook

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No, actually my church follows the same Book of Worship and supplemental books used by most ELCA churches. We are not an exception. You will see what I described at pretty much any ELCA church that you visit.
Do you not see the discrepancies in your replies? Why do you refer to someone as pastor in your church in the first place as is that not an honorific title? What did Jesus himself state about the use of honorific titles?
Do not be called Rabbi. Only one is your Guide, the Messiah, and all of you are brothers. And don't address as Father anyone on the earth, for only one is your Father, the one in the heavens. Nor be called guides, for only one is your Guide, the Messiah. Matt 23:8-10
The ELCA and all the churches I know of refer to someone as their pastor, reverend, etc. Are you not violating Jesus' command against the use of titles? Our orthodoxy teaches the priesthood of all believers but our orthopraxy contradicts our supposed belief.

How do you define participation in your church? Singing a few songs together led by the worship leader in my opinion does not make for a whole of participation. One could just as easily sit in the back pew, sing songs, listen to the sermon and leave right after the service without interacting with others - which happens a lot.

The "system" does not reflect the NT model.
 
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NBB

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I agree that churches seem sometimes like an organization rather what the bible says, but people who disagree should work with them, not only say they are doing all wrong and you are going to cut yourself from them. Because if not you are not helping at all.
 
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Oldmantook

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Im not judging anyone - Just being a sign post.

I have tasted this approach to fellowship about 30 years ago and seen the fruit.

You talk of qualifications - we are in danger of missing His voice when we fail to give ear to the least.

I have never said we should leave those called to serve Him full time, high and dry.
It is how we do it that I am questioning.

I am not judging any particular church but if the sandal fits...

If not - move on...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
The Simon Magus story certainly is relevant to this.

We now pay a tithe for a spiritual service.

We were meant to be a community of Jesus love supporting those who He was using to further the gospel.

This is the first love we need to return to.

In returning the church will again impact the world dramatically as before.

Our present system has muted His voice to the world because the world has nothing attractive to see.

The world does not see believers relating together in His love.

Sadly it seems that only persecution will bring about this return - I hope not - we are starting a home fellowship, I hope that our commercial subconsciousness will dissolve in His love.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
Yes because of persecution, the sheep will be scattered and because they depended on an under shepherd to feed them who may no longer be around because he was martyred or imprisoned the sheep will be left to fend for themselves. But because they were accustomed to meeting at the church building and having the pastor feed them, they are spiritually under-equipped for the task ahead of meeting in their own homes which are the last refuge of the ecclesia.
 
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Oldmantook

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I agree that churches seem sometimes like an organization rather what the bible says, but people who disagree should work with them, not only say they are doing all wrong and you are going to cut yourself from them. Because if not you are not helping at all.
Been there; done that.
 
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Do you not see the discrepancies in your replies? Why do you refer to someone as pastor in your church in the first place as is that not an honorific title? What did Jesus himself state about the use of honorific titles?
Do not be called Rabbi. Only one is your Guide, the Messiah, and all of you are brothers. And don't address as Father anyone on the earth, for only one is your Father, the one in the heavens. Nor be called guides, for only one is your Guide, the Messiah. Matt 23:8-10
The ELCA and all the churches I know of refer to someone as their pastor, reverend, etc. Are you not violating Jesus' command against the use of titles? Our orthodoxy teaches the priesthood of all believers but our orthopraxy contradicts our supposed belief.

No, there is no violation of any command by Jesus. Pastor simply means Sheppard, a term that is used throughout the New Testament.

How do you define participation in your church? Singing a few songs together led by the worship leader in my opinion does not make for a whole of participation. One could just as easily sit in the back pew, sing songs, listen to the sermon and leave right after the service without interacting with others - which happens a lot.

Did you read what I wrote? Did I say that all we do is sing a few songs, listen to a sermon and then everyone leaves? No I did not say any such thing. Actually at my church we have quite a bit of interacting after the service—people stay to sort food for the food bank, during warm weather people work in our garden where we raise fresh food for the food bank, a ground of seniors usually meets for brunch and coffee and the youth group works on projects. perhaps you should read what was written before you make such comments.

The "system" does not reflect the NT model.

Speaking for what happens in my church, yes it does.
 
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Paidiske

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I believe Athilis is speaking very forcefully against something that many believers have experienced.

When a church leader or church system, not called or ordained by God, perpetuates spiritual or financial abuse in the lives of believers. I have experienced it.

This can happen in many churches, many denominations. Some I believe operate on systemic abuse of the sheep.

Ezekiel 34 speaks directly to this very problem.

IMO we should listen to and help believers caught up in this. I believe the ultimate solution is when the Lord returns, the temporary solution, help the believer to move to pastures new.

God Bless

I completely agree with you. I think the issue in this thread is when people assume that there is this kind of abuse in every church.

Most people are unaware of what pastors do and how hard they actually work.

This is very, very true!

Then your church is the exception; not the rule is it? Therefore it is indeed true that the vast majority of church services function otherwise.

In my experience, his church is the rule, not the exception.

On a typical Sunday morning here, we would have the involvement of a similar range of people who are not paid "up the front." In bigger churches, more people involved.

But to my mind the biggest flaw in this discussion is limiting "church" to the week's main liturgy. Every single person has gifts to use in the church, has skills and experience to bring and a part to play. Every person; and any minister who denies or tries to squash or control that is abusive.

But... for most people, their part isn't in the main service! There are six other days in the week, and the rest of Sunday, in which the church needs to be the church. There need to be people exercising different kinds of leadership, teaching, caring, administrating, and so on... every day, not just on Sunday morning.

Not everyone's gifts will find expression in the one hour of Sunday morning. And as long as the church is actually being faithful in mission and ministry, there will be all sorts of other ways to be involved through the week.
 
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FireDragon76

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Religious Control over peoples is wrong and if the ones doing the controlling are also teaching falsehoods..

I agree, but my church is one of the least controlling churches I've even been in. Lutherans have specific teachings about what the Church can and cannot demand from people, and generally it is very little aside from a basic confession of faith and not breaking our church bylaws, which are merely there to ensure the peace, safety and good order of everybody. We definitely don't believe in placing stumbling blocks up for people.

The very oppisite of Love

If you demand perfection then perhaps you should not be lecturing on love in the first place.
 
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Oldmantook

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No, there is no violation of any command by Jesus. Pastor simply means Sheppard, a term that is used throughout the New Testament.
Do you deny that "pastor" is an honorific title? It is used in the same sense that Jews refer to the rabbi. Jesus forbids the use of such titles. If you wish to do so because of your tradition in violation of Jesus' command, that is certainly your prerogative.


Did you read what I wrote? Did I say that all we do is sing a few songs, listen to a sermon and then everyone leaves? No I did not say any such thing. Actually at my church we have quite a bit of interacting after the service—people stay to sort food for the food bank, during warm weather people work in our garden where we raise fresh food for the food bank, a ground of seniors usually meets for brunch and coffee and the youth group works on projects. perhaps you should read what was written before you make such comments.
I do read but if anything your church would be the exception rather than the rule so that is the indictment of the modern church system which I've critiqued.
 
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FireDragon76

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Do you deny that "pastor" is an honorific title? It is used in the same sense that Jews refer to the rabbi. Jesus forbids the use of such titles. If you wish to do so because of your tradition in violation of Jesus' command, that is certainly your prerogative.

"Pastor" is primarily a job description, just as "rabbi" is. It is honorific only in a derivative sense.

Jesus often speaks in a hyperbolic way. Even Jesus did not object to being called "rabbi".
 
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Oldmantook

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In my experience, his church is the rule, not the exception.

On a typical Sunday morning here, we would have the involvement of a similar range of people who are not paid "up the front." In bigger churches, more people involved.

But to my mind the biggest flaw in this discussion is limiting "church" to the week's main liturgy. Every single person has gifts to use in the church, has skills and experience to bring and a part to play. Every person; and any minister who denies or tries to squash or control that is abusive.

But... for most people, their part isn't in the main service! There are six other days in the week, and the rest of Sunday, in which the church needs to be the church. There need to be people exercising different kinds of leadership, teaching, caring, administrating, and so on... every day, not just on Sunday morning.

Not everyone's gifts will find expression in the one hour of Sunday morning. And as long as the church is actually being faithful in mission and ministry, there will be all sorts of other ways to be involved through the week.
Part of what you write is true but the main question in my mind is what percentage are we referring to? Do you think Paul was referring to 100% participation in Rom 14:26? Including other days of the week, does 100% of the congregation get involved in some way, shape or forrm?Notice that Paul states "when you meet" implying a meeting of the church which does not include work/ministry outside of the church meeting which normally takes place on Sundays. Does the adage apply that 20% of the congregation does 100% of the work/ministry as has been my experience?
 
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Oldmantook

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"Pastor" is primarily a job description, just as "rabbi" is. It is honorific only in a derivative sense.

Jesus often speaks in a hyperbolic way. Even Jesus did not object to being called "rabbi".
No, your claim is a based on a false dilemma fallacy. It is both a job description AND a title. To deny that is to deny the obvious. Jesus commanded against the use of titles - not job descriptions.
 
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FireDragon76

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I completely agree with you. I think the issue in this thread is when people assume that there is this kind of abuse in every church.

To be blunt, people with certain personality types might be prone to seek out abusive religious institutions more than other people who have more discernment. They could be "asking" for it in the sense of being drawn to totalizing, authoritarian institutions and structures. This is something that only I could understand after my own bad situation with a church, I've learned to take some responsibility for my choices.

This is one reason I spend so much time calling out certain things said in bad faith on this forum, because I know its a dragnet for catching vulnerable people.
 
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