The pre-tribulation rapture

redleghunter · Mar 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Ok. How do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

It's the age old controversy of some Christians not believing in a literal millennial Kingdom and a literal tribulation. If they don't believe in one or the other or both, then any mention of literal eschatology goes nowhere.

Now, there are many Christians who believe the "harpazo" or rapture equals the Second Coming and Resurrection. Meaning they believe we all meet the Lord in the clouds and come to earth with Him for Judgment day. You can have a conversation with the aforementioned because they believe in the literal events of the Eschaton. This would be the historic futurist view or post tribulationist view.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 29, 2019

HTacianas said:
Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

All it is, is the resurrection. The dead rise first to immortality, then those alive are changed from mortal to immortal.

lsume · Mar 29, 2019

HTacianas said:
Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

“The meek shall inherit the earth” that theme resonates throughout The Word of God. Nowhere does The Word say that the meek will be removed from the earth that I’m aware of. There are places to search via your search engine that show a fair amount of Scripture to back the belief.

Pss.37

[9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Pss.55

[22] Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

There are 3 destinations that I’m aware of. The New Heaven, the new earth or hell.

1stcenturylady · Mar 29, 2019

BCsenior said:
1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead,
and has become the firstfruits of those
who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death,
by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits, afterward
those (firstfruits) who are Christ’s at His coming.

Perhaps, this is the only "firstfruits" reference
that might just possibly apply.

Yes, I recall that, just couldn't place where it was. I still believe that the Old Covenant saints that believed in their Messiah was raised at the same time as the resurrection of Jesus. But that verse is speaking of those who are raised at His second coming. I find it interesting, but puzzling because no one I know teaches this, that the first resurrection at the second coming at the start of the Millennium are martyrs, possible only those out of the Great Tribulation. Those who died for Christ, because they wouldn't take the mark of the beast to save themselves from death. And after the 1000 years the second resurrection happens. It appears that both the saved and unsaved are raised and separated according to if their name is written in the Book of Life or not.

BCsenior · Mar 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Ok. How do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

You obviously do not understand that the church
is made up of vastly different BACs!

BCsenior · Mar 29, 2019

Thanks, dearest SF lady, velly interesting!
As I said, I gave up on eschatology years ago.

BABerean2 · Mar 29, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I find it interesting, but puzzling because no one I know teaches this, that the first resurrection at the second coming at the start of the Millennium are martyrs, possible only those out of the Great Tribulation. Those who died for Christ, because they wouldn't take the mark of the beast to save themselves from death. And after the 1000 years the second resurrection happens. It appears that both the saved and unsaved are raised and separated according to if their name is written in the Book of Life or not.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet found in the Bible, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" are found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead.
That event is described in John 5:27-30.

.

Monk Brendan · Mar 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
The first issue I have with the non-pretrib approach is the logic of it all. We are told that the Church needs to go through the trib as some sort of purification or cleansing measure. If that is the case, then the entire Church would require it, which in turn requires the dead saints to return to participate. But if they have no need in returning to be 'cleansed' simply because they had already died, then a pre-trib rapture would then have an equivalent effect on those still living at the time. That argument is really kind of self-defeating.

Another issue I have is that Isaiah 26:19-21 describes a future event where the dead are risen, and the people of the Lord are all gathered and told to hide themselves away prior to the Lord pouring His wrath out over the whole earth. That sounds a lot like the rapture, and it also is a future event because the result will be the earth will never again cover its slain, and that is something we still do to this day, indicating a lack of fulfillment thus far.

I've been saying for years that those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down to worship antichrist.

At the Mystical Supper, Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do not take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the Evil One."

You and other rapturists pray, "Don't listen to Jesus. Take us out of this world."

Which prayer is the Father more likely to grant?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 29, 2019

Monk Brendan said:
I've been saying for years that those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down to worship antichrist.

At the Mystical Supper, Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do not take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the Evil One."

You and other rapturists pray, "Don't listen to Jesus. Take us out of this world."

Which prayer is the Father more likely to grant?

2 Thessalonians 2:3

ewq1938 · Mar 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Ok. How do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

The entire church that exists on Earth will go through the tribulation. It is pretrib that splits the church in two, making part of the church escape while the rest of the church suffers. So I ask you how do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

ewq1938 · Mar 29, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
All it is, is the resurrection. The dead rise first to immortality, then those alive are changed from mortal to immortal.

You are leaving out that Paul said the living are also "caught up" to the clouds which is harpazo in Greek, rapture in English.

ewq1938 · Mar 29, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I find it interesting, but puzzling because no one I know teaches this, that the first resurrection at the second coming at the start of the Millennium are martyrs, possible only those out of the Great Tribulation. Those who died for Christ, because they wouldn't take the mark of the beast to save themselves from death.

Those people are not the only ones that resurrect at that time. Rev 20 only focuses upon that specific group but Paul wrote the dead in Christ rise first, which is the same wording as first resurrection. So, we know all the saved dead rise up at the same time, martyrs and those who died other ways.

ewq1938 · Mar 29, 2019

Monk Brendan said:
I've been saying for years that those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down to worship antichrist.

yeah possible, but what makes this more likely to happen? What is it about the pretrib doctrine that makes them more susceptible?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 29, 2019

ewq1938 said:
You are leaving out that Paul said the living are also "caught up" to the clouds which is harpazo in Greek, rapture in English.

Yeah, after they are changed...

ewq1938 · Mar 29, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yeah, after they are changed...

Yes I assume the change happens first. I have always said that it makes sense for the change to immortality to happen first because mortal humans can't survive up in the clouds and that's where the rapture takes people.

So the order of events would be: Christ leaves heaven when the second coming begins, the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven and follow Christ along with angels, the living on Earth change into immortal bodies and are caught up/raptured to the clouds of the Earth where Christ and everyone from heaven are waiting, then all follow Christ as the second coming is completed. Then various events of the day of the second coming take place.

Monk Brendan · Mar 29, 2019

ewq1938 said:
yeah possible, but what makes this more likely to happen? What is it about the pretrib doctrine that makes them more susceptible?

Isaac Watts sang, "Must I be carried to the clouds on flow'ry beds of ease/while others fought to win the prize and sailed through bloody seas?"

The rapturist sings, "You'd better believe it."

Pre-trib rapture was never heard of before the 1830's.

1stcenturylady · Mar 29, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet found in the Bible, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" are found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead.
That event is described in John 5:27-30.

.

I agree that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. But that doesn't take anything away from my post.

1stcenturylady · Mar 29, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Those people are not the only ones that resurrect at that time. Rev 20 only focuses upon that specific group but Paul wrote the dead in Christ rise first, which is the same wording as first resurrection. So, we know all the saved dead rise up at the same time, martyrs and those who died other ways.

That is why this is puzzling to me. Do I take the words literally, or do I take a general statement about Christians and do not see any differentiation?

1stcenturylady · Mar 29, 2019

ewq1938 said:
You are leaving out that Paul said the living are also "caught up" to the clouds which is harpazo in Greek, rapture in English.

Yes, at the second coming at the end of the Great Tribulation, not 7 years before in some secret mythological rapture.

BABerean2 · Mar 29, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I agree that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. But that doesn't take anything away from my post.

There are no mortals left after Matthew 25:31-46.

Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
What is the flaming fire going to do to mortals?

How can you have "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and then another judgment of the dead in chapter 20?

.

The pre-tribulation rapture

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