If you are Israel

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

Copperhead said:
It is not in my pay grade to determine who is who. Neither is it in yours to question who is who. The Lord made the promises, it is up to Him to work it out.

So the people who are a party to that national corporate covenant have no responsibility to KNOW they are a party to it? (whether or not they live up to it is another matter altogether)
What if it's me? what should I do?

But just like Elijah thought there were none left, the Lord told him that He had 7000 in reserve. Seems wise to just believe what the Lord said and let Him work out the details.

And did National, Covenanted, Corporate Israel continue through those 7000 and THEIR descendants? or did it continue through those who bent their Knee to Baal?

In times of great Apostasy, did national, corporate Israel continue on through the lineages of the apostate wicked many, or the faithful obedient few?

This distinction is crucial.

After all, Abraham was declared righteous just by believing the Lord without focusing on how the Lord would pull it off. I rather like that example.

So does DNA trump faith and obedience in your view when it comes to National Corporate Covenants?

And speaking of National corporate covenants, I noticed you didn't address 1 Peter 2:9 which refutes your claim that the Christian covenant is not a NATIONAL corporate covenant.

Does your silence mean you acquiesce the point to me (and Peter) and have adjusted your view accordingly?

JacksBratt · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
IF you believe Ezekiel 38-40 describes the Millennial Temple where Christ will physically sit and reign from for 1000 earth years sometime in our future, then what I mentioned are indeed the core tenants of that belief, and you obviously hold them.

But perhaps I'm wrong and you don't believe Ezekiel 38-40 is Future to us?

I haven't got time right now to research the text you presented.

From what I remember, in the millennial age, Satan will be bound and there will only be Christ, ruling the earth... people will live long lives again and death of a young person will be an embarrassment.

I don't recall the things you mention.. but will look into it later.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 29, 2019

Dave L said:
The 144,000 were from Israel; the innumerable multitude from all nations. Because of this comparison—144,000 from Israel on one hand, and an innumerable multitude of converts from among the Gentiles on the other—it seems clear that the 144,000 were converts from Israel, Israel in the literal sense of the word.

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

However there were certainly Israelites among the innumerable multitude as well. The 144,000 are only those Israelites who are sealed to take part in the first resurrection.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I haven't got time right now to research the text you presented.

From what I remember, in the millennial age, Satan will be bound and there will only be Christ, ruling the earth... people will live long lives again and death of a young person will be an embarrassment.

I don't recall the things you mention.. but will look into it later.

Sorry I meant Ezek 40-44

Here are a few of them:

Ezekiel 40:39
In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.

Ezekiel 42:13
the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

Ezekiel 43:20
'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 43:21
'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

Ezekiel 43:22
'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

Ezekiel 43:27
'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU

Ezekiel 44:9
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:10
"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people

Ezekiel 44:23
"Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.

Do you believe these describe conditions in the future Millennial temple?

OldWiseGuy · Mar 29, 2019

Copperhead said:
Yes they do. Joseph was the father of Manassah and Ephraim. Jacob adopted them as sons (Genesis 48:5). When Joseph is broken into Manassah and Ephraim, there then becomes 13 tribes from which one can select the 12 names. In Revelation, Dan is left out. Joseph and Mannassah are mentioned. One can use Joseph alone, or Joseph and Mannassah, or Joseph and Ephraim, or Mannassah and Ephraim. All it takes is a little study. How much some miss when they don't study the OT.

Manasseh is referred to as the "half-tribe" in many places, therefore there really aren't 13 tribes. Ephraim and Manasseh represent the tribe of Joseph as a whole. Also Ephraim frequently represents Joseph and vice versa; something that Manasseh never does.

Copperhead · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
So the people who are a party to that national corporate covenant have no responsibility to KNOW they are a party to it? (whether or not they live up to it is another matter altogether)
What if it's me? what should I do?

And did National, Covenanted, Corporate Israel continue through those 7000 and THEIR descendants? or did it continue through those who bent their Knee to Baal?

In times of great Apostasy, did national, corporate Israel continue on through the lineages of the apostate wicked many, or the faithful obedient few?

This distinction is crucial.

So does DNA trump faith and obedience in your view when it comes to National Corporate Covenants?

And speaking of National corporate covenants, I noticed you didn't address 1 Peter 2:9 which refutes your claim that the Christian covenant is not a NATIONAL corporate covenant.

Does your silence mean you acquiesce the point to me (and Peter) and have adjusted your view accordingly?

I notice that you fail to adhere to the Torah requirement (affirmed by the Bereans) that a matter can only be established by the testimony of two witnesses. These are two (both OT and NT) that refute the Body is a national entity on the same physical level as Israel. Paul stated (quoting Deuteronomy 32)....

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not A nation,
BY A nation without understanding will I anger you.”

And the context is the believing gentiles bringing Israel to jealousy. No, my silence was not aquiesance to your position. It was time for you to get it right, not wanting to belittle you as opposed to your style. You see, I have no malice toward any other position, I am very comfortable with the one I hold.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 29, 2019

jgr said:
Jesus identifies His brethren.

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

No mention or implication of only "Hebrew people" or "brethren in the flesh".

Rather, "whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Irrespective of their physical DNA.

Only in respect of their spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

The disciples were his spiritual family, but his physical family remained the same. I've had friends that were more of a brother to me than my flesh and blood brother, but that didn't change the fact that my flesh and blood brother was still my physical brother.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

Copperhead said:
I notice that you fail to adhere to the Torah requirement (affirmed by the Bereans) that a matter can only be established by the testimony of two witnesses. These are two (both OT and NT) that refute the Body is a national entity on the same physical level as Israel. Paul stated (quoting Deuteronomy 32)....

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not A nation,
BY A nation without understanding will I anger you.”

Then what Kind of National Entity was Peter referencing?
When He called the Church "an Holy nation", was he just making that up?

I am very comfortable with the one I hold.

Good.
And about the 7000 in Elijah's day that you brought up? Did National, Corporate, Covenant, Physical Israel continue through THEIR lineages from that time forward, or did it continue through the Lineages of the Wicked who Bowed to Baal?

Dave L · Mar 29, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
However there were certainly Israelites among the innumerable multitude as well. The 144,000 are only those Israelites who are sealed to take part in the first resurrection.

I think God keeps them intact for this purpose even though the Church is biblical Israel. Abraham's DNA is probably still within the group.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

Dave L said:
I think God keeps them intact for this purpose even though the Church is biblical Israel. Abraham's DNA is probably still within the group.

If we are talking "probability" then, as jgr has oft pointed out, Everyone on earth today has Abraham's DNA, so looks like all 7 billion of us are all "National, Corporate, Physical, Israel"

keras · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
Do you believe these describe conditions in the future Millennial temple?

Ezekiel 40-48 describes the situation BEFORE the Millennium.
Soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, every faithful Christian will move to live there. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 62:1-5
WE will elect leaders; Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
WE will build God's new Temple; Zechariah 6:15, to make atonement sacrifices and thanksgiving offerings in. Daniel 11:21, 2 Thessalonians 2:4

These Prophetic truths are as Written in the Bible and if people can't see them, it is because they are blinded by false beliefs.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

keras said:
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the situation BEFORE the Millennium.
Soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, every faithful Christian will move to live there. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 62:1-5
WE will elect leaders; Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
WE will build God's new Temple; Zechariah 6:15, to make atonement sacrifices and thanksgiving offerings in. Daniel 11:21, 2 Thessalonians 2:4

And all Faithful Christain Males will once again have to be physically circumcised, right?
Thus Nullifying Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7:19.

jgr · Mar 29, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
The disciples were his spiritual family, but his physical family remained the same. I've had friends that were more of a brother to me than my flesh and blood brother, but that didn't change the fact that my flesh and blood brother was still my physical brother.

Sure. His physical brethren were the sibling brothers of His family. His spiritual brethren are those who do the will of His Father. Those of His sibling brothers who did the will of His Father were also His spiritual brethren.

Those are the only brethren in that passage of Scripture.

Copperhead · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
Then what Kind of National Entity was Peter referencing?
When He called the Church "an Holy nation", was he just making that up?

Good.
And about the 7000 in Elijah's day that you brought up? Did National, Corporate, Covenant, Physical Israel continue through THEIR lineages from that time forward, or did it continue through the Lineages of the Wicked who Bowed to Baal?

I think you answered your own question without realizing it. Peter said a Holy Nation. All that means is a group set apart and not in a physical sense like the physical nations of the earth or physical nation group Israel. But it still remains, Paul quotes Deuteronomy in making the case that the Hebrew people will eventually be brought to jealousy by a group that is not a nation. And it is in the context of Romans distinguishing that the promises and the covenants still belong to Israel and they are irrevocable. The grafted in branches are to make the broken off branches jealous and return to the Lord. But many take the grafted in thing way to far and assume they are now both the physical representation of Israel along with being a part of spiritual Israel.

Physical, national, corporate Israel, all the tribes continued on thru after Elijah. They are all represented in the southern kingdom long after the northern kingdom fell. Over 100 years after the fall of the northern kingdom, there was a gathering of many of the northern tribes to Judah. They were all represented in the return from the exile to Babylon. If you notice, the Lord did not break it down to Elijah how many were from each of the tribes that made up that 7000. So that is a question you can ask Him in the future if it bothers you.

Copperhead · Mar 29, 2019

jgr said:
Sure. His physical brethren were the sibling brothers of His family. His spiritual brethren are those who do the will of His Father. Those of His sibling brothers who did the will of His Father were also His spiritual brethren.

Those are the only brethren in that passage of Scripture.

Not so quick. We have to look at the entire discourse. It has been targeted at physical, literal Jacob (Israel) since Matthew 23:37. The discourse on the virgins is a exposition on Ezekiel 20 which is talking about the Hebrews being separated just like the virgins. Some will go into the kingdom, some will be cast off. Ezekiel really makes that clear.

The virgins cannot be the redeemed of the church, otherwise the church got a down grade from bride to bridesmaid. if that is the case, then who is left to be the bride?

And the sheep and goat judgement is a continuation on that theme and logically follows the judgement of the Hebrew people. It is a judgement of the nations on how they treated the Hebrew people. It is expositional commentary by Yeshua on Joel 3.

And therein lies the key to keep from getting all off track on who is who. The Torah requirement of two witnesses along with the example of the Bereans in Acts 17 shows that any doctrinal concept has to be supported in both OT and NT. I gave the supporting OT references for my position. For the "brethren" of Matthew 25 to be any group other than the Hebrew people, then one has to provide ample OT support. And as of yet, I have not seen any of that coming from those who disagree with me. Essentially the counter argument fails to meet the evidentiary requirements so is therefore invalid.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

Copperhead said:
I think you answered your own question without realizing it. Peter said a Holy Nation. All that means is a group set apart and not in a physical sense like the physical nations of the earth or physical nation group Israel.

Rather, Peter is Quoting Exodus 19:6 and applying it to the Church.

Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Peter's application of Exodus 19:6 MUST BE authoritative for us.

But it still remains, Paul quotes Deuteronomy in making the case that the Hebrew people will eventually be brought to jealousy by a group that is not a nation. And it is in the context of Romans distinguishing that the promises and the covenants still belong to Israel and they are irrevocable. The grafted in branches are to make the broken off branches jealous and return to the Lord.

Which happened throughout the apostolic generation.
Was not Paul Himself one of those branches initially broken off But later grafted back in?

Is not Paul a fulfillment of that? Is not Paul a member of Corporate, National, Physical Israel?

Was not the ENTIRE Chruch simply the faithful remnant of Physical National Israel up to the Stoning of Stephen?

Did that Jewish Church ever stop being Physical, National, Corporate Israel?

Physical, national, corporate Israel, all the tribes continued on thru after Elijah. They are all represented in the southern kingdom long after the northern kingdom fell. Over 100 years after the fall of the northern kingdom, there was a gathering of many of the northern tribes to Judah. They were all represented in the return from the exile to Babylon. If you notice, the Lord did not break it down to Elijah how many were from each of the tribes that made up that 7000. So that is a question you can ask Him in the future if it bothers you.

How many who returned from Babylon were of the lineages of the Wicked who were destroyed in Elijah's day? were there any at all?, or did Physical Israel continue EXCLUSIVELY through the Lineages of the Faithful 7000?

I maintain it's the latter, as it ALWAYS is in Times of Israel's great apostasies.
We must never count the continuation of national Israel through the Lineages of the Wicked who rebel, but always and only through the faithful remnant.

1 Kings 19:17-18 concurs
17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Pretty clear only the 7000 survived, and therefore only the lineages of those 7000 constituted physical national corporate Israel from that point forward.

How many of the Wicked ones in the wilderness got to enter the Promised land?
ZERO.

The same thing happened in the Apostolic generation. The faithful Nazarene sect survived and all other sects were "utterly destroyed" and cut off from the people forever:
Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism/Covenant Israel is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

keras · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
And all Faithful Christain Males will once again have to be physically circumcised, right?
Thus Nullifying Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7:19.

NO, Paul's teaching nullified the original requirement.

Copperhead said:
But many take the grafted in thing way to far and assume they are now both the physical representation of Israel along with being a part of spiritual Israel.

It is not 'too far' to assume that we Christians can be both Spiritual and physical Israel. In fact, according to jgr's genetic dispersion calculations; this is absolutely the case and why not?
This is the perfect solution to God's promises to the Patriarchs and to us Christians, who are the Overcomers for the Lord, His true Israelites.

Copperhead · Mar 29, 2019

parousia70 said:
Rather, Peter is Quoting Exodus 19:6 and applying it to the Church.

Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Peter's application of Exodus 19:6 MUST BE authoritative for us.

Which happened throughout the apostolic generation.
Was not Paul Himself one of those branches initially broken off But later grafted back in?

Is not Paul a fulfillment of that? Is not Paul a member of Corporate, National, Physical Israel?

Was not the ENTIRE Chruch simply the faithful remnant of Physical National Israel up to the Stoning of Stephen?

Did that Jewish Church ever stop being Physical, National, Corporate Israel?

How many who returned from Babylon were of the lineages of the Wicked who were destroyed in Elijah's day? were there any at all?, or did Physical Israel continue EXCLUSIVELY through the Lineages of the Faithful 7000?

I maintain it's the latter, as it ALWAYS is in Times of Israel's great apostasies.
We must never count the continuation of national Israel through the Lineages of the Wicked who rebel, but always and only through the faithful remnant.

1 Kings 19:17-18 concurs
17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Pretty clear only the 7000 survived, and therefore only the lineages of those 7000 constituted physical national corporate Israel from that point forward.

How many of the Wicked ones in the wilderness got to enter the Promised land?
ZERO.

The same thing happened in the Apostolic generation. The faithful Nazarene sect survived and all other sects were "utterly destroyed" and cut off from the people forever:
Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism/Covenant Israel is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

In Paul’s quote the delineation of who is physical Israel and are the redeemed remains. In your analysis, you have speeceded physical Israel with the redeemed. We will one day rule over physical Israel along side Yeshua, but we are not the Israel we will be ruling over.

In the same discourse, Peter also says we are aliens and foreigners. Clearly delineating that his reference to us as a holy nation puts us in a non physical nation sense, unlike physical Israel.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 29, 2019

The descendants of physical Israel have to be somewhere. See Genesis 49.

Amos 9:9
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain (seed) fall upon the earth.

Jesus knew who they were and where they were.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He then left Judea and began his ministry in the region of Samaria.

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2019

keras said:
NO, Paul's teaching nullified the original requirement.

OK, so when you said this:

"Ezekiel 40-48 describes the situation BEFORE the Millennium"

You actually meant to say:
"Ezekiel 40-48 (EXCEPT Ezekiel 44:9) describes the situation BEFORE the Millennium"

Right?

If you are Israel

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