parousia70

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You do not understand correctly, you're not even trying.
Sure I am... I gave an exhaustive, detailed, BIBLICAL definition of what "under the Mosaic law" and "following the Mosaic law" means.

You, in turn, have invented a wholly unbiblical meaning for those terms that you adhere to for your own reasons, but your personal, private definition would be unrecognizable to the Prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles..
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH,

I'm not prepared to address all of your Scriptural references, but only Colossians 2:8. It is my understanding that 'principles of the world' (or whatever phrase is used in the various translations) in this text is referencing the basic laws that we refer to as 'laws of nature' or 'scientific understandings of how things come about naturally'. In other words, this particular and specific piece of Paul's writing is refuting any understanding that we might have of how the creation came to be through natural processes and the physical laws that we see in the creation. It then goes on to say that any understanding or explanation that is not based on the work of the Christ, is bogus.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hmmm... this sounds like something a scientific creationist would apply to the verse. Not sure it bears out with the context of the rest of the letter since creation isn't really debated by the heretics, but it's interesting to see how it would be applied that way.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for sharing, Ted.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Sure, I see where you're coming from on this, and I wouldn't discount the presence of Jewish philosophical derivatives that floated around along with the other Hellenized odds and ends that permeated the culture of that time. You're description does seem sensible in an intertextual way, especially with the Hellenized, proto-Gnostic, ideas that were being contended with by Timothy and for which Paul felt he had to instruct him so as to stand resolute. It makes sense, really.

Thanks for the insight, HIH!

I know this thread is largely played out now, but just wanted to post in closing that someone posted something surprisingly good at another forum, especially the definition of the term itself which I will be partially adopting (i.e. "the elementary principles of the world"), since it not only conveys an accurate interpretation of the original Greek but the spiritual "childishness" inherent in what Paul was teaching against in some of the contexts:
_______________________

"Being set in contrast with what such Christians now enjoyed, the “elementary things of the world” evidently are the fundamental or primary principles followed by those who are not true Christians, persons who are a part of the world alienated from God. An American Translation renders the Greek expression for “elementary things of the world” as “material ways of looking at things.” Of course, the way a person views things is determined by the principles that he follows.

The text we are considering, Colossians 2:8, indicates that these primary principles or “elementary things” include the philosophies and deceptive teachings based on human standards, concepts, reasonings and myths, things in which the Greeks and other non-Jewish peoples reveled. Additionally, as evident from Colossians 2:16-18 and Galatians 4:4–5:4, the “elementary things” embraced non-Biblical Jewish teachings... [such] as the teaching that Christians must observe the Mosaic law in order to gain salvation.

But was not the Mosaic law of divine origin? Certainly. How, then, could its observance be referred to as one’s being enslaved to the “elementary things of the world”?

We must remember that the Law had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. He was the “reality” to which the Law’s ‘shadows,’ including the temple and the sacrifices there carried on, pointed. The Law had therefore served its purpose and so was no longer the standard for judgment. (Col. 2:13-17) Not only this, but these Christians to whom the apostle Paul wrote were called to heavenly, spirit life. The Law was for humans, was composed of “legal requirements pertaining to the flesh,” even its tabernacle (and later temple) could be called “worldly” (Heb. 9:1, 10, Kingdom Interlinear Translation; “mundane,” Moffatt) in the sense that it was part of the human sphere, something built and used in the world of mankind, not something heavenly or spiritual. But now Christians were called to the superior way of worship based on Christ Jesus, who had entered into heaven itself. (Heb. 9:11, 24) Of Jesus Christ, in a letter to the Colossians, the apostle said that “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” in him. (Col. 2:9) That being so, then Jesus Christ —not humans and their principles or teachings, nor even the now fulfilled Mosaic law— was to be recognized as God’s appointed standard for his servants, hence as the full means of measuring the truth with regard to any teaching or way of life.

As the apostle had counseled the Christians at Colossae, similarly he wrote those in Galatia not to be like children by voluntarily placing themselves under that which was likened to a ‘pedagogue’ or ‘tutor,’ namely, the Mosaic law. Their relationship with God was now like that of a grown son with his father. The Mosaic law had become “elementary,” as compared with the Christian teaching. So it would have been wrong for Christians to turn back to the “weak and beggarly elementary things” of the human sphere. They possessed the full truth."
 
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RDKirk

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There are two different meanings, though closely related. Those "principles of the world" are things we rarely see in modern times. They were the religions of the times among religious people. Ancient Rome was filled with religions, each having its own beliefs and traditions. Each trade guild of the time had its own god.

All of those religious traditions, which Paul accused of being created by men, hence "traditions of men" were competing with Christianity, which Paul saw as from God. That those religions competed with Christianity for adherents was what Paul was warning against, i.e., do not be deceived by the traditions of men.

To the Galatians at 4:9 he warned against returning to those same rituals referring to them as as "beggarly principles". Paul also accused the Jewish law itself of being traditions of men.

I say that we do not see those things today because they were all but eradicated by Christianity in the Western world.

We don't see them presented as gods, per se, but they are still here nevertheless.
 
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RDKirk

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I have to agree with Heikki Raisanen to a certain extent in his book, Paul and the Law, which my summary will not do justice, and will probably turn some people away from reading the book -- but you should read it, its a good book for wrestling with Paul's theory or various theories as to why Christians don't need to keep the law.

And that's how I'm going to summarize the book. Basically, Raisanen is saying that Paul has no one singular theory as to why Christians don't need to keep the law. Basically Paul throws out a lot of different theories hoping one of them will stick. And this theory (i.e. as mentioned by Michael in the quote, and by the OP's verses about "elements of the world"; the theory that the Law was given by angels not God) is just ONE of the many theories. There is also the theory that Jesus nailed the Law to the cross, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (presumably only the ceremonial commandments are intended) that were against us. There is the theory of faith alone that Abraham was justified by faith alone, so we are too, and thus don't need to keep the Law. There is the theory of imputed righteousness. Paul has no single theory, but many competing theories as to how to get rid of the Law so Christians don't have to keep it. And finally Raisanen talks about Justin Martyr's theory, which moves away from all of Paul's theories, towards simply the notion that Jesus' death set aside the Law to replace it with a new law (somewhat foreshadowed already in James), and this theory of course is what Christianity went with until the reformation when a renewed interest in trying to force one of Paul's theories to work or force all of Paul's theories to work together came about and pushed away Justin Martyr's theory which honestly worked better than all of Paul's theories, and still would if we'd have enough sense to go back to it. That's my summary of Raisanen's book. As I said it may turn some people away from reading it, but there's a lot of supporting argument, and a lot more than what I remember, so I totally recommend everyone read it. And honestly, anyone who hasn't read it, I think is unqualified to argue about this issue, because they probably haven't noticed the diversity of Paul's theories about what we don't need to keep the Law and probably won't admit there is any diversity there, and as a result, no honest discussion could be had with them, certainly no profitable discussion. Without exposure to a book like this, or having independently noticed the same things, people will just be too fundamentalist in one interpretation of one of Paul's theories as if its the only one in his epistles, and that leads nowhere good, but just to hurt feelings.

I don't see Paul as having a myriad of "theories," as though they competitive and mutually exclusive, but rather having a number of different arguments supporting the same proposition--and would use whichever argument answered whichever dispute was thrown at him at any particular time.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Its perfection also runs completely counter to the principles of this world. God's love always has. It rejects survival and says I will die for the love of you; it does not return evil for evil but perseveres with goodness despite the intensity of evil

Thanks for your post, John. I liked the above sentences in particular as an interesting take on "principles of the world" vs. the principles of Christ. As with other posts, I think it ventures beyond the scope of specifically what was being taught in Galatians and Colossians, but it's still interesting to meditate on.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks again.
Hidden
 
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Hidden In Him

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Which, as I mentioned, would be a classic "Partial Preterist " position.
What you have just professed is something Only partial preterists believe.
No reason to run from or be ashamed of your own preterism.

Yes it would be fun to explore further w you... drop on by the eschatology board sometime :)

Cheers!

Btw, thanks for sharing this. I hadn't looked into partial Preterism all that deeply, and quite frankly it disturbed me a little to think my position might actually qualify as such, LoL.

For the sake of properly defining myself in the future, let me ask you, I read that partial Preterists believe Matthew 24:1-34 has already been fulfilled. This would NOT be my position. I believe these prophecies were only apparently fulfilled.

Not for the sake of argument but to understand the difference, if passages like Hebrews 1:1-2 and Acts 2:16-17 are enough to qualify someone as a partial Preterist, what distinguishes a partial Preterist from a Futurist?

Blessings in Christ, and I appreciate the heads up.
 
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parousia70

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Btw, thanks for sharing this. I hadn't looked into partial Preterism all that deeply, and quite frankly it disturbed me a little to think my position might actually qualify as such, LoL.

For the sake of properly defining myself in the future, let me ask you, I read that partial Preterists believe Matthew 24:1-34 has already been fulfilled. This would NOT be my position. I believe these prophecies were only apparently fulfilled.

Could you cite one or two examples of this "apparent fulfillment"?
That's a new one on me.

Some time back I provided a verse by verse commentary on the fulfillment of Matthew 24 from the partial preterist view.
Perhaps you could use that as a template to demonstrate how what I assert is "Full-filled", you assert is only "apparently fulfilled"?
You can find it HERE.

Not for the sake of argument but to understand the difference, if passages like Hebrews 1:1-2 and Acts 2:16-17 are enough to qualify someone as a partial Preterist, what distinguishes a partial Preterist from a Futurist?

Blessings in Christ, and I appreciate the heads up.

I tend to think of it in linear terms.

FULL PRETERISM________________________________________FULL FUTURISM

Where on the line would you say you were?

Perhaps here?:

FULL PRETERISM_____________________________________X___FULL FUTURISM

Whereas I'm about here, today anyway:

FULL PRETERISM__X______________________________________FULL FUTURISM

Whereas The partial preterism you referred to form your studies is probably about here:

FULL PRETERISM________________X________________________FULL FUTURISM

Now, I do not believe any Christian can be a FULL FUTURIST, for the reasons I state, so to your question, There are no true, consistent futurists in Christianity, only partial preterists and Full preterists, though there is healthy debate as to whether or not full preterism is consistent with Orthodox Christianity... CF has determined for their forums it is not.

But as I said, and hopefully my linear diagram helps you understand, All Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Could you cite one or two examples of this "apparent fulfillment"?
That's a new one on me.

Simon Magus became a false Christ years later after his encounter with Peter in Acts (Matthew 24:23-24), and the persecutions of Nero might have appeared to be a fulfillment of Matthew 24:9, since the empire might have qualified as "all nations." Inferred by Matthew's account would have been that Rome was the fourth "beast" of Daniel, which I likewise point to as an apparent fulfillment that was not actually the real thing.
Some time back I provided a verse by verse commentary on the fulfillment of Matthew 24 from the partial preterist view.
Perhaps you could use that as a template to demonstrate how what I assert is "Full-filled", you assert is only "apparently fulfilled"?
You can find it HERE.

Thanks. I will try to take a look later.
I tend to think of it in linear terms.

FULL PRETERISM________________________________________FULL FUTURISM

Where on the line would you say you were?

Perhaps here?:

FULL PRETERISM_____________________________________X___FULL FUTURISM

Whereas I'm about here, today anyway:

FULL PRETERISM__X______________________________________FULL FUTURISM

Whereas The partial preterism you referred to form your studies is probably about here:

FULL PRETERISM________________X________________________FULL FUTURISM

Now, I do not believe any Christian can be a FULL FUTURIST, for the reasons I state, so to your question, There are no true, consistent futurists in Christianity, only partial preterists and Full preterists, though there is healthy debate as to whether or not full preterism is consistent with Orthodox Christianity... CF has determined for their forums it is not.

But as I said, and hopefully my linear diagram helps you understand, All Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.

If your contention is true, it would appear we may have to look for new terminology altogether, LoL. But it wouldn't be the first time. I often read debates about "dispensationalism" when the only thing actually being debated is the millennium.
 
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parousia70

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Simon Magus became a false Christ years later after his encounter with Peter in Acts (Matthew 24:23-24), and the persecutions of Nero might have appeared to be a fulfillment of Matthew 24:9, since the empire might have qualified as "all nations." Inferred by Matthew's account would have been that Rome was the fourth "beast" of Daniel, which I likewise point to as an apparent fulfillment that was not actually the real thing.

Thanks for those... I'm interested in how you determine these are only "apparent" fulfillments and not the "real thing"?

What are they missing, in your view, that disqualifies them from being the real deal?
 
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Hidden In Him

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Thanks for those... I'm interested in how you determine these are only "apparent" fulfillments and not the "real thing"?

What are they missing, in your view, that disqualifies them from being the real deal?

Well that's why I was originally using the term "partial," but now I'm rethinking it. I view them as only foreshadowings of far greater fulfillments that will take place in the end-times (ahead of us). Simon is recorded by the fathers (I forget now which one) as having levitated into the sky, which would have fulfilled the prophecy of performing a wonder that was capable of deceiving "even the very elect if possible." But the verse actually says false Christs (plural), meaning many would perform such demonic signs and wonders, and I know of no others recorded in early church history who likewise accomplished such things.

As for Rome under Nero, it didn't really result in the apostasy described in Matthew 24:10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3, at least not on the large scale both Jesus and Paul were talking about. The fourth beast of Daniel was prophesied to consist of ten nation states, three of which the Antichrist would usurp and assume rule over, and I'm not sure what the partial Preterist/full Preterist thoughts are on what would have been the fulfillment of this, but it doesn't seem to correspond well with the Roman Empire, which was ruled by one man during the entire NT era. The closest thing to other "kings" would have been the proconsuls and prefects, but they were a long ways from what one might rightly refer to as "kings."
 
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Then he uses just the word "principles" (στοιχεῖα) as a stand alone in Galatians 4:9, "how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which you again desire to serve anew?," referring back to the full phrase τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου in Galatians 4:3....

I have understood it means people turn to follow/worship nature or false god’s and false teachings of men, not the one and only true God.
 
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