What is keeping the Sabbath?

ace of hearts · Mar 26, 2019

Dave-W said:
then you disagree with Paul:

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And according to Romans 11:29 - all such giftings and callings frm God are irrevocable, unchangeable and cannot be repented from. IOW they STILL have exclusive right to interpreting the oracles of God.

Your proof that Rabbis have this gift from God is..... well missing. Being a Rabbi isn't a gift from God. They have no exclusive rights to anything when it comes to Christianity.

ace of hearts · Mar 26, 2019

Dave-W said:
2 things:

1 - the "Noachide Laws" were a product of the Mishnaic era Rabbis, and not biblical at all. It has been suggested that the 4 commands of Acts 15 were part of the Noachide laws, but there is no evidence that such a formulation existed that early. At any rate, the Noachide laws are NOT from God and therefore not binding.

2 - there is a difference between something that is a gift and something that is REQUIRED. The Noachide laws were considered (by the rabbis) to be REQUIREMENTS for gentiles to be accepted by God.

WOW! just wow!!

ace of hearts · Mar 26, 2019

Would anyone care to address Ex 20:10?

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
I included verse 21 in there due to the invitation to go learn of Moses on the Sabbath in the Synagogue. Please note it was to Gentile believers, NOT Jewish New Covenant believers. That gets a bit more clarified in chapter 21.

An invitation?
That's not what that says nor what it means.
It meant that the law of Moses was common knowledge.
Neither gentiles or Christians were welcome in the synagogues.

Saul was sent with letters to Damascus to arrest anyone found in the Way. (Christians)
Peter informed the house of Cornelius that Jews were forbidden to associate with gentiles.

An invitation? Not in the least!

Dave-W · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Neither gentiles or Christians were welcome in the synagogues.

Actually both were welcomed at the time. That changed in 70 ad with the siege of Jerusalem that ended with the destruction of the Temple, and had just started getting back to being ok when the Bar Kochba revolt came in 135 ad. That changed it for good.

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
Can you explain why you need the "what" instead of the who? IMO putting things in that order leads to legalism.

Right. If you are going to promote the law don't be legalistic about it. lol
That makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. It's the law, so whatever you feel like doing is fine... Right?

Dave-W · Mar 29, 2019

Not the “Law,” it is TORAH which means teaching and instruction.

It comes to English as “law” due to the translators of the Septuagint using “nomos” (law) to translate Torah.

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

david shelby said:
In Judaism keeping the Sabbath means doing NO WORK. But Jesus reinterpreted it as allowing you to do your own work. As when the disciples plucked ears of corn/grain to eat right then. Or when he healed a man on the Sabbath and told him to carry his bed home. Clearly these people are doing what Judaism would see as work. But they're not doing this work as part of a job. Its their own personal work. Its like the distinction between going to work on the weekend versus fixing your leaking faucet at home on the weekend. Or the distinction between mowing other people's lawns on the weekend for money versus mowing your own because you don't have any other day you can really do it on because the rest of the week you're across town working for the man. So I would say, the moral principle behind the Sabbath still applies (i.e. everyone must be given at least one day off a week), but its no longer to be seen as a ceremonial regulation and strictly followed in a ceremonial way.

Can you identify the wife in the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20?

Exodus 20:8-10
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
Actually both were welcomed at the time. That changed in 70 ad with the siege of Jerusalem that ended with the destruction of the Temple, and had just started getting back to being ok when the Bar Kochba revolt came in 135 ad. That changed it for good.

Are you saying that Jesus was a false prophet? (see John 16:2)
Other references below show that believers were unwelcome in the synagogues.

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.

John 12:42
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

We should also consider the Sabbath commandment from the other set of ten in Deuteronomy. And again, my question about where the wife is in the commandment. It seems that there are only two options.
1) The wife is not obligated to observe the Sabbath. (not likely)
2) The Sabbath commandment was written to both husband and wife.
If so, what does this say about the no "occupational" work on the Sabbath claim?
Also note the designation of to whom the Sabbath was given.
(those who were slaves in Egypt and in the exodus)

Deuteronomy 5:12-15
“Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

ace of hearts · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
Not the “Law,” it is TORAH which means teaching and instruction.

It comes to English as “law” due to the translators of the Septuagint using “nomos” (law) to translate Torah.

Then indeed what we call the law is only suggestions. The problem with that is the law caused immediate death for some.

ace of hearts · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Can you identify the wife in the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20?

Exodus 20:8-10
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Love your question.

ace of hearts · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
We should also consider the Sabbath commandment from the other set of ten in Deuteronomy. And again, my question about where the wife is in the commandment. It seems that there are only two options.
1) The wife is not obligated to observe the Sabbath. (not likely)
2) The Sabbath commandment was written to both husband and wife.
If so, what does this say about the no "occupational" work on the Sabbath claim?
Also note the designation of to whom the Sabbath was given.
(those who were slaves in Egypt and in the exodus)

Deuteronomy 5:12-15
“Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

So I need to ask the general participants here where does the law grant permission to take advantage of anonther's sin?

Dave-W · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Are you saying that Jesus was a false prophet? (see John 16:2)
Other references below show that believers were unwelcome in the synagogues.

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.

John 12:42
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Not at all.

That all happened AFTER 135 ad.

Dave-W · Mar 29, 2019

ace of hearts said:
Then indeed what we call the law is only suggestions. The problem with that is the law caused immediate death for some.

NO. Teaching is not “suggestions.”

Shimshon · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Other references below show that believers were unwelcome in the synagogues.

It seems Dave thinks John wrote about Yeshua teaching this after 135ad. How he reasoned his response is beyond me. But you sir are spot on with your understanding about belivers being shunned and persecuted in the synagogues.

Shimshon said:
In fact we see Messiah telling them that they will be chased OUT of the synagogues for the testimony of Yeshua. He did not teach his followers they would need to learn the rest from the Torah read in the synagogues every Shabbat. He taught just the opposite.

Luke 21:12 ESV
But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

John 16:2 ESV
They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.
So, what was the point in mentioning Moses being read in the synagogues every Shabbat?

Acts 15 verse 18 identifies it.
18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
What things were made known long ago in the Torah that is now being revealed?

Isaiah 45
21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior ; There is none except Me.
What was announced? What was declared? The Law?

God is the ONLY Savior. There is none except him. Yeshua is God our salvation.

What is it? Yeshua

Who has announced Yeshua from old? Who has long declared it? The LORD has! Yeshua et Adonai!

16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
What is restored through Yeshua? The tabernacle of Moses, or of David?

The reason the mention of hearing Moses teachings in the synagogue ever Shabbat is because through the reading of the Torah and the Prophets was the declaration about the coming Messiah, Yeshua.

John 1:45 ESV
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

The Torah leads to Messiah, Messiah does not lead to Moses, Moses leads to Messiah. So the Jews and converts, who were the ONLY ones in the synagogue, did hear every Shabbat about the salvation that is Yeshua HaMoshiach, the salvation of God Almighty. But when most synagogue leaders heard this they ran Paul out of town on threat of death.

But the Gentiles embraced the message, because it was about them too. The Jewish Messiah was being offered for/to them as well. To cover the gentiles sins as well as the sins of Israel. Israel did not like this because it yanked the favorite seat they placed under them right out from beneath them. And put them on equal footing in regards to righteousness with the Gentiles. Both laid out flat on the ground, face to the dirt.

I believe he made it impossible to observe that which we as a people lied about keeping. As if to say....""""you think you keep my Torah?? try keeping it now that you have broken the covenant. Since you broke the covenant I will remove your blessings. The ability to keep Torah as given being one of them. Now be self-righteous, hmm?"""" He humbled Israel. And will humble the nations too, now that they have placed themselves above Israel, and God's words.

Nobody demands complete observance to something and then makes it impossible for them to achieve it. God did not make the Torah great and holy only to make it impossible for Israel to observe it. Yet, it's impossible to observe the Torah the way God gave it to us, here in exile. So this tells me that the Torah given Israel at the mountain is not the means by which he will redeem us here in the wilderness before he gathers us home. Messiah must have spoke and taught a Torah that was not identically observed as given back on the mountain. And his witness and testimony in John 6 definitely play this out.

david shelby · Mar 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Can you identify the wife in the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20?

Exodus 20:8-10
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

That's funny. I'm totally bringing that up if I ever debate an Orthodox Jew.

ace of hearts · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
Not at all.

That all happened AFTER 135 ad.

Sorry but Paul was in as much better place long before then. My sources say he wrote his epistles as early as 50 AD. Remember he was chasing Christians out of the synagogue and other places arresting them with an official letter and military men.

ace of hearts · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
NO. Teaching is not “suggestions.”

Didn't you post the Torah was or is and means teaching and instruction in say post 47?

Saint Steven · Mar 29, 2019

Dave-W said:
Not at all.

That all happened AFTER 135 ad.

Don't be ridiculous. One is a quote from Christ.
The other two were quotes from the NT testament while Christ was alive.
And you say after 135 AD?

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.

John 12:42
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

What is keeping the Sabbath?

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