Replacement Theology Refuted

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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LittleLambofJesus said:
Protestantism was apostate?!! Define "apostate"............
Jerryhuerta said: See my posts on the Historicist's threads.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Put a link up to your posts on apostate Protestantism.
Na, you look them up.
Nope. You brought it up......
What do you mean by "apostate Protestantism"?
Jerryhuerta said:
I don’t see where you’ve refuted this evidence that RT been around for a long time; the Roman Church started it and apostate Protestantism imbibed it. And to take the onus off themselves they try and accuse the theology of the two houses of Israel as a cult, like the pot calling the kettle black.

.
 
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jgr

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But they still acknowledge that there was a future restoration for biological descendants. Citing Justin Martyr,

And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.” Justin, First Apology 52, ANF 1:180.​

This is not the supersessionism of the Roman church in that the ante-Nicene's still acknowledged the covenant promises of the biological descendants and the Messianic kingdom in the age to come.

Not limited to biological descendants, for as a scholar and apologist Justin Martyr would have been well aware of Genesis 17:12 and the multiraciality of Israel's tribes. He would have been including any practitioner of old covenant Judaism irrespective of ethnicity.
 
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jgr

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Your confusing racialization with the promises to Israel.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19

You continue to confuse faith and obedience with biology.

You also ignore the reality of Abrahamic genetic ubiquity.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Nope. You brought it up......
What do you mean by "apostate Protestantism"?


.
Nope. You look it up. I will say that the NT substantiates a great apostasy, a falling away just before Christ returns. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Not limited to biological descendants, for as a scholar and apologist Justin Martyr would have been well aware of Genesis 17:12 and the multiraciality of Israel's tribes. He would have been including any practitioner of old covenant Judaism irrespective of ethnicity.
Ephesian 2 says differently; the gentiles, the nations, were aliens to the covenants, without hope in the world. RT speciously asserts there wasn't any difference. The ante-Nicene's held that the biological descendants would be restored to the Messianic kingdom in the age to come. RT maintains there is no kingdom for the biological descendants in the age to come; they lost the kingdom and were supplanted by the gentiles. RT views this age as the promised Messianic kingdom and the commencement of the eternal estate at Christ's return, which the ante-Nicene's clearly did not believe; they were chiliast.
 
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Dave L

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Abraham's descendants were the only ones that were born as heirs to the covenants. And none of them were saved by circumcision, or have you not read Romans 4. Their works, keeping the law, followed their faith; they were saved by faith in the Redeemer to come and God ordained their obedience to the law (Ephesians 2:10). Furthermore, the abolishment of the Mosaic covenant, the end of the need of circumcision, did not end the promises to Israel. You do know that the law Paul is talking about below is the Mosaic covenant, right?

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19​
So what is your point? I don't understand how this relates to Paul saying, “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) = Only in Christ do any experience the promise made to Abraham.
 
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jgr

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Galatians 3:17-19 maintains the promises to the biological descendants of Abraham was not abolished. Revelation 7 substantiates the continuation of the descendants. God knows who and where they are at the end of this age.

There is no mention or implication of biology in Galatians 3 or anywhere else. The promises were to Christ (Galatians 3:16) and those in Christ (Galatians 3:28,29).

No RB there or anywhere else.

You also continue to ignore the reality of Abrahamic genetic ubiquity.
 
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jgr

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Ephesian 2 says differently; the gentiles, the nations, were aliens to the covenants, without hope in the world. RT speciously asserts there wasn't any difference. The ante-Nicene's held that the biological descendants would be restored to the Messianic kingdom in the age to come. RT maintains there is no kingdom for the biological descendants in the age to come; they lost the kingdom and were supplanted by the gentiles. RT views this age as the promised Messianic kingdom and the commencement of the eternal estate at Christ's return, which the ante-Nicene's clearly did not believe; they were chiliast.

RT declares there is nothing for anyone, biological or otherwise. who is not in Christ.

RB declares that biology supersedes unfaithfulness and disobedience.

Also known as BS (Biological Supersessionism).
 
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claninja

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I pretty much agree with most of you post, claninja, or whatever your true name might be, with the exception of your take on 2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 3. In the former, Paul is speaking of the “temporal body” versus the “glorified body,” the latter we receive at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. KJV

so it seems the main difference in our belief is that I believe we go to heaven, while you believe heaven comes down to us.

Philippians 2 must yet agree with Revelation 5:9-10, as the scripture cannot conflict with themselves.

Revelation 5:
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." ESV
The Greek tenses in verse often denote the accomplishment of an act yet consummated in the future

I agree that revelation cannot contradict scriptures. But your "greek tenses often denote accomplishment of an act yet consummated in the future" is not always true.

In revelation 5:9, the greek verb purchased is past tense. Which is consistent with work that was already done at the cross.

Revelation 5:9 for you were slain, and by your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 You are not your own, for you were purchased with a price. So glorify God in your body.

The greek word for "you have made" is the same tense as "you purchased". As they are in the same context, I would argue that your "consummated in the future" does not apply here. Additionally, since peter calls his audience a ROYAL priest hood in the first century, I would argue that revelation 5:9-10 does not need to wait for a future fulfillment, but became a reality in the first century at the cross.

revelation 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Christ our citizenship is already in heaven but heaven is coming here is stages to be consummated when the Father ultimately tabernacles with man in Revelation 21:3.

God already dwells with us on earth, his footstool.

Ephesians 2:22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16 For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them
and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people

Christ did convey “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” in Matthew 6:10

This all depends on how one views the kingdom of God.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” in Matthew 6:10
 
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keras

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so it seems the main difference in our belief is that I believe we go to heaven, while you believe heaven comes down to us.
No scripture actually says the former, while Revelation 21:1-7 plainly states the latter.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No scripture actually says the former, while Revelation 21:1-7 plainly states the latter.
Revelation is a destruction of an old Levitical Priesthood and Temple in 1st century Jerusalem which for the Jews were the "former things" which Jesus and the OT Prophets warned was nigh of vanishing. Hebrews 8:13


Revelation 21:
4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first/former things<4413> passed away<565>.

Heb 9
1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

Hebrews 7:12
For being translated/changed the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a translation/change is becoming
Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New' He hath made Old the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance.
[Revelation 14:8/18:8/]

Why would God/Jesus go thru the whole trouble of writing the Olivet Discourse if it not also used in Revelation?!?

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
2 not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”
Mark 13:1
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
2 Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>
Luke 21:5
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
6 Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rise! and measure! the Temple/Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Temple/Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring,
that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading forty two months.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world......................
=======================
The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover............

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy. Thus terminated the glory and existence of this sacred and venerable Edifice, which from its stupendous size, its massy solidity, and astonishing strength, seemed formed to resist the most violent operations of human force, and to stand, like the pyramids,................

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
 
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TribulationSigns

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Be careful...

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

From what I read your posts lately, Littlelamb, where you often come up with interpretation or twist some Scripture, especially the word from different context, to fit your preterism doctrine. You're trying to figure something out that God has already explained. To over-analyze by throwing in many verses, often not related to each other, from all over the place into one until it becomes convoluted.
 
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keras

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At Jesus’ first Advent, He devoted His ministry to the Jewish people, in the holy Land. He said: I was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and to them only. Matthew 15:24

So the Jews were lost spiritually, but so were the rest of Israel, in dispersion. Paul alludes to them; Acts 26:6-7, and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 also mention those who still remain scattered among the nations. The Jews were and still are, aware that the majority of Jacobs descendants have not yet come back to the holy Land.

John 7:35….will He go to the dispersion among the Gentiles and teach Gentiles?

Note the prophecy of Caiphas: the death of Jesus will result in the gathering of the scattered children of God. John 11:49-52

Now, nearly 2000 years later, we can see how things have panned out. The Jews remain in apostasy and people from every race, nation and language have become Christian. Only a small proportion of the Jews have become Christian, but millions of other peoples have accepted the Gospel, but just how many are actual descendants of Jacob, God only knows. Amos 9:9

However, in order to fulfil what Jesus said about the lost sheep of Israel and so as God will fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, most of the people who will go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of wrath, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17, will be Israelites. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 8:24-26

This ‘Church’, comprised of every born again individual, is no more a new ‘church, or congregation’, than the one of Ezra and Nehemiah’s time, made up of the faithful remnant who returned from Babylon and is simply a continuation of all the faithful ones, such as Enoch, Noah and Abraham.

The Jews who have accepted Jesus are members of the Israel of God, along with all righteous believers, as Isaiah 56:1-8 makes clear.

Many scriptures reiterate the truth of there being only one people of God, John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6. Those who refuse Jesus’ offer of salvation, be they Jew or Gentile, all belong in the other category; godless people who are doomed for destruction. Isaiah 66:15-17 God doesn’t have any special plan for anyone who rejects His Son. The apostate Jews have been broken off from the fig tree and they, plus the ungodly Gentiles are now vessels of God’s retribution. Romans 9:22


Just as there is one ‘olive tree’; Jesus, there is one holy people of God; His ‘ay-daw’; Hebrew, His ‘ekkelasia’; Greek, His ‘kurikos’; Greek, meaning ‘belonging to the Lord, the word that ‘church’ comes from.

It isn’t that God has taken away the special status of ethnic Israel and replaced them with the Gentiles, but they as a nation have rejected their Messiah and so God rejected them and now offers salvation to all peoples. Matthew 21:43, Romans 3:29

Born again Christians, the sheep of Jesus Christ’s flock, John 10:14-16, are deemed by God to be the Seed of Abraham and it is them alone, who are the true Israelites of God. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Galatians 3:26-29

The real fulfilment of God’s promise to Abraham, that he would become the father of many nations, is seen in the myriads of Christians from every ethnicity. Whatever our ancestry may be, if we are by faith and self surrender, a true Christian, then we are of the Seed of Abraham and we are the inheritors of the promises God made to him. Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11
 
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claninja

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No scripture actually says the former, while Revelation 21:1-7 plainly states the latter.

Revelation 21:1-7 does not say heaven comes down to earth. It says the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Additionally, revelation is a highly figurative book, so I wouldn't recommend using revelation to support your argument. Maybe you could provide scripture in the NT, where any one of the epistles state the land of Israel is the destination?

What is the new Jerusalem? Let's use scripture to interpret scripture:

1.) The New Jerusalem and the Church are both the bride of the lamb
revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church

2 Corinthians 11:2 I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ

2.) the New Jerusalem and the Church are both where God dwells with his people.
Revelation 21:3 I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God

2 Corinthians 6:16
For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

3.) The New Jerusalem and the Church are both built on the foundations of the apostles.
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

 
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keras

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Revelation 21:1-7 does not say heaven comes down to earth. It says the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.
Revelation 21:3 says that God Himself will come to dwell with mankind. Where God is, there heaven is also.
Maybe you could provide scripture in the NT, where any one of the epistles state the land of Israel is the destination?
There is plenty of OT prophecy about the Lord's people, now every Christian, going to live in all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 62:1-5, Psalms 37:29
But also in the NT we have Romans 9:24-26, where it says that we Christians will be called the children of the Living God...in the very place that ancient Israel was rejected.
And Revelation 7:9 is a scene in earthly Jerusalem, this is proved by the context of that Chapter.
 
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claninja

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Revelation 21:3 says that God Himself will come to dwell with mankind. Where God is, there heaven is also.

Paul states that God already dwells with us

Ephesians 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

There is plenty of OT prophecy about the Lord's people, now every Christian, going to live in all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 62:1-5, Psalms 37:29

This depends on the correct interpretation, which is why I asked for NT scripture to support your belief. What NT scripture supports your belief that Christians inherit the literal earthly promiseland of Israel for all eternity?

But also in the NT we have Romans 9:24-26, where it says that we Christians will be called the children of the Living God...in the very place that ancient Israel was rejected.

So gentiles believers are not the children of God yet, if they don't live in Israel?

And Revelation 7:9 is a scene in earthly Jerusalem, this is proved by the context of that Chapter.

This assumes your interpretation of a highly symbolic book is correct. To support your position, you should easily be able to supply scripture from the epistles that states Christians inherit the literal earthly land.
 
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keras

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Paul states that God already dwells with us

Ephesians 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Both of these scriptures cite a future time when God will dwell with man, prophesying Revelation 21:1-7
So gentiles believers are not the children of God yet, if they don't live in Israel?
Not yet, but soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has removed all the evil neighbors, including the apostate Jews. Jeremiah 12:14, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Revelation 6:12-17
Romans 9:24-27 states perfectly clear facts: it will be in the holy Land, where we Christians will be told: You are the sons of the Living God.
Jewish Israel will be gone; only a remnant will survive.

I now ask you to explain why you reject this scenario and to provide clear scriptures for whatever scenario that you believe in.
 
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