Eric Holder: American Greatness never really existed

bhsmte · Mar 28, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
So how do you explain all the people trying to get in? Are they all capitalist ideologues and not interested in their quality of life?

Many people trying to get in, have never been here before and therefore, likely have limited knowledge of what america is like as a total package and only focus on hoping they can find work.

grasping the after wind · Mar 28, 2019

cow451 said:
A good many of my fellow Christians of the conservative slant are chronic whiners and complainers because of being less able to use the government to help with evangelical endeavors. And getting resistance to government sanctioned prayer and not getting to put up Christian monumoin courthouses. That kinda stuff. Roy Moore-type stuff.

I hear a lot of complaining( I hesitate to use the word whining) by my fellow Christians of the liberal bent who, though they will claim to be against theocracy, expect the government to be a source of Christian charity and are dissatisfied when it does not extend enough Christian charity to meet their liking. I do not look to the government to hold prayer meetings or put up Christian signage nor to do my good works for me. Seems to me way too many Christians of all stripes want the government to act like a Christian theocracy perhaps so they do not need to concern themselves with doing the work of Christ themselves in teaching their children to pray or in exampling the word of God in the public square or in tending to the needs of the less fortunate.

grasping the after wind · Mar 28, 2019

bhsmte said:
Many people trying to get in, have never been here before and therefore, likely have limited knowledge of what america is like as a total package and only focus on hoping they can find work.

Can you then explain why there is not a stream of people lined up to leave after they learn the truth about America's lack of quality of life? The dreamers at least should have become educated enough to realize how unfortunate they are to be in America.

bhsmte · Mar 28, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Can you then explain why there is not a stream of people lined up to leave after they learn the truth about America's lack of quality of life? The dreamers at least should have become educated enough to realize how unfortunate they are to be in America.

Its all relative. The folks who are in dire straits who come here are much less likely to leave.

Here is my point; when you look at quality of life measures, that most people would agree on: access to quality healthcare, education, poverty, crime and economic opportunity, america doesnt even crack to top ten.

IMO, america is so big, it has created a perception of it being a dreamland, but some perceptions dont align with reality.

John 1720 · Mar 28, 2019

cow451 said:
Hmmmm...... you question his accuracy and then make his argument.!?
The end of the Civil War did not usher in equality by any stretch of the imagination. Government sanctioned segregation was long-standing. I attend a segregated elementary school.

Well I'm sure that's not what you meant, since no one in the US attends a segregated elementary school these days. But I assume you meant you attended one long ago and I too grew up in the era of Civil rights. Rarely does one action resolve all problems sir. The fight for justice is never a single engagement but rather a nation must persevere from generation to generation, even when it is not in the public forefront. History shows us that civil rights abuses manifested again after reconstruction when the Federal troops left. On February 25, 1870, Hiram Rhodes Revels was seated as the first black member of the Senate, while Blanche Bruce, also of Mississippi, seated in 1875, was the second. This good will and representation eroded with the resurgence of the Democratic Party in the South after our Federal troops left. It probably would not have happened had not Garfield been assassinated.

Gene2memE · Mar 28, 2019

The actual quote in question:

ARI MELBER: There’s a lot of talk about American being a leader as a democracy, quote unquote, in the 1800s when women and African-Americans couldn’t vote. What kind of democracy is that?

ERIC HOLDER: Well, that’s exactly right and that’s why I hear let’s “Make America Great Again,” and I think to myself “when did you think America was great? It certainly wasn’t when people were enslaved. It certainly wasn’t when women did have the right to vote. It certainly wasn’t when the LGBT community was denied the rights to which it was entitled.

MELBER: Does that phrase echo as discrimination in your ears?

HOLDER: It takes us back to an American past that never in fact really existed, this notion of greatness. You know, America has done superb things, great things, and it has been a leader in a whole range of things, but we’re always a work in process. Looking back, “Make America Great Again” is inconsistent with who we are as Americans at our best where we look at the uncertain future, embrace it, and make it our own.

What bit of those statements is incorrect or unreasonable, specifically?

grasping the after wind · Mar 28, 2019

bhsmte said:
Its all relative. The folks who are in dire straits who come here are much less likely to leave.

Here is my point; when you look at quality of life measures, that most people would agree on: access to quality healthcare, education, poverty, crime and economic opportunity, america doesnt even crack to top ten.

IMO, america is so big, it has created a perception of it being a dreamland, but some perceptions dont align with reality.

You are IMO assuming way too much by saying most people would agree that quality of life can be summed up by the few factors you have put forward. There are so many other considerations. Relationships, both familial and friendships, freedom from government interference in daily life, ability to move or to travel freely, freedom to worship etc. etc. etc.. Did you know that at one time America was not only in the top ten of those categories you mention but pretty much at the top of those categories in relation to the rest of the world? Are you saying that America was once great but now is not? Are you agreeing with Donald Trump about that? Or is being at the top of a list of mostly economic factors not the true measure of greatness. I believe during the 1930's and early 1940's you might have found Nazi Germany at or near the top of that list if one only took into consideration the factors you listed above.

grasping the after wind · Mar 28, 2019

Gene2memE said:
The actual quote in question:

ARI MELBER: There’s a lot of talk about American being a leader as a democracy, quote unquote, in the 1800s when women and African-Americans couldn’t vote. What kind of democracy is that?

ERIC HOLDER: Well, that’s exactly right and that’s why I hear let’s “Make America Great Again,” and I think to myself “when did you think America was great? It certainly wasn’t when people were enslaved. It certainly wasn’t when women did have the right to vote. It certainly wasn’t when the LGBT community was denied the rights to which it was entitled.

MELBER: Does that phrase echo as discrimination in your ears?

HOLDER: It takes us back to an American past that never in fact really existed, this notion of greatness. You know, America has done superb things, great things, and it has been a leader in a whole range of things, but we’re always a work in process. Looking back, “Make America Great Again” is inconsistent with who we are as Americans at our best where we look at the uncertain future, embrace it, and make it our own.

What bit of those statements is incorrect or unreasonable, specifically?

The part where he conflates perfect with great.

bhsmte · Mar 28, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
You are IMO assuming way too much by saying most people would agree that quality of life can be summed up by the few factors you have put forward. There are so many other considerations. Relationships, both familial and friendships, freedom from government interference in daily life, ability to move or to travel freely, freedom to worship etc. etc. etc.. Did you know that at one time America was not only in the top ten of those categories you mention but pretty much at the top of those categories in relation to the rest of the world? Are you saying that America was once great but now is not? Are you agreeing with Donald Trump about that? Or is being at the top of a list of mostly economic factors not the true measure of greatness. I believe during the 1930's and early 1940's you might have found Nazi Germany at or near the top of that list if one only took into consideration the factors you listed above.

All the countries in the top 10, allow all the relationships with other people you wish. Freedom of travel and minimal government interference. As an fyi, there are no communist countries in the top 10.

John 1720 · Mar 28, 2019

Pommer said:
Because the “War of Northern Aggresion” made America “great”?

I reckon that depends on yer perspective Pommer as you can't make everyone happy. My ancestors were fighting for the Union - c/o the NY 69th.

Shiloh Raven · Mar 28, 2019

PeachyKeane said:
Eric Holder: American 'Greatness' Never Really Existed

Appearing Wednesday evening on MSNBC, former Attorney General Eric Holder told Ari Melber he believes the notion of American “greatness” never “really existed.”

As a descendant of the Cherokee and the Choctaw, I happen to agree with him. I don't think 55 years of racial equality for minorities is a monumental accomplishment for a 242 year old nation that claims to be founded on freedom, liberty and justice for all. I've included examples to demonstrate my point.

(1) For 188 years in the United States, Black people and other minorities were racially oppressed, subjugated, segregated, discriminated against and denied equality to white people.

(2) For 89 years in the United States, slavery was legal and Black people were considered to be inferior to white people. From 1776 to 1865 slavery was legal in the United States.

(3) For 99 years after slavery was finally abolished in the United States, the descendants of the freed slaves were then denied equality to white people and they were legally segregated from white people until the Civil Rights Movement in 1964.

(4) For 89 years in the United States, Black people were denied the right to vote (despite the Thirteenth Amendment) until the Jim Crow Laws were abolished by the Voting Rights Act in 1965.

(5) For 148 years in the United States, Native Americans were denied United States citizenship until the American Indian Citizenship Act in 1924.

(6) For 202 years in the United States, Native Americans were denied religious freedom until the American Indian Religious Freedom Act in 1978. Native American religious dances such as the Ghost Dance and the Sun Dance were both illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

(7) For 214 years in the United States, Native American religious sacred sites and burial grounds where the remains of their ancestors and family lie could be desecrated and destroyed until the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act in 1990.

PeachyKeane · Mar 28, 2019

Shiloh Raven said:
As a descendant of the Cherokee and the Choctaw, I happen to agree with him. I don't think 55 years of racial equality for minorities is a monumental accomplishment for a 242 year old nation that claims to be founded on freedom, liberty and justice for all. I've included examples to demonstrate my point.

(1) For 188 years in the United States, Black people and other minorities were racially oppressed, subjugated, segregated, discriminated against and denied equality to white people.

(2) For 89 years in the United States, slavery was legal and Black people were considered to be inferior to white people. From 1776 to 1865 slavery was legal in the United States.

(3) For 99 years after slavery was finally abolished in the United States, the descendants of the freed slaves were then denied equality to white people and they were legally segregated from white people until the Civil Rights Movement in 1964.

(4) For 89 years in the United States, Black people were denied the right to vote (despite the Thirteenth Amendment) until the Jim Crow Laws were abolished by the Voting Rights Act in 1965.

(5) For 148 years in the United States, Native Americans were denied United States citizenship until the American Indian Citizenship Act in 1924.

(6) For 202 years in the United States, Native Americans were denied religious freedom until the American Indian Religious Freedom Act in 1978. Native American religious dances such as the Ghost Dance and the Sun Dance were both illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

(7) For 214 years in the United States, Native American religious sacred sites and burial grounds where the remains of their ancestors and family lie could be desecrated and destroyed until the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act in 1990.

Well as a descendent of some of those slaves, I can tell you that it was great for white people.

Speedwell · Mar 28, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
You are IMO assuming way too much by saying most people would agree that quality of life can be summed up by the few factors you have put forward. There are so many other considerations. Relationships, both familial and friendships, freedom from government interference in daily life, ability to move or to travel freely, freedom to worship etc. etc. etc.. Did you know that at one time America was not only in the top ten of those categories you mention but pretty much at the top of those categories in relation to the rest of the world? Are you saying that America was once great but now is not? Are you agreeing with Donald Trump about that? Or is being at the top of a list of mostly economic factors not the true measure of greatness. I believe during the 1930's and early 1940's you might have found Nazi Germany at or near the top of that list if one only took into consideration the factors you listed above.

No it wouldn't, because those benefits were not available to all regardless of race, creed, color or sexual orientation.

Tanj · Mar 28, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Again, Separate your Trump dislike and his slogan from my question. How does anyone that says America was never great explain the consistent stream of people attempting to get there rather than elsewhere?

Two guys are in the woods when the stumble across a hungry bear. As the bear weighs up its options one of the guys starts to limber up and get ready to run. The other looks at him and says
"Why are you doing that? You'll never run faster than a bear".
The first man replies
"I don't have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than you"

The fact America is greater than its southern neighbors, doesn't make it great.

PeachyKeane · Mar 29, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Again, Separate your Trump dislike and his slogan from my question. How does anyone that says America was never great explain the consistent stream of people attempting to get there rather than elsewhere?

If you're in South or Central America, the US is closer than Canada.

wing2000 · Mar 29, 2019

Gene2memE said:
The actual quote in question:

ARI MELBER: There’s a lot of talk about American being a leader as a democracy, quote unquote, in the 1800s when women and African-Americans couldn’t vote. What kind of democracy is that?

ERIC HOLDER: Well, that’s exactly right and that’s why I hear let’s “Make America Great Again,” and I think to myself “when did you think America was great? It certainly wasn’t when people were enslaved. It certainly wasn’t when women did have the right to vote. It certainly wasn’t when the LGBT community was denied the rights to which it was entitled.

MELBER: Does that phrase echo as discrimination in your ears?

HOLDER: It takes us back to an American past that never in fact really existed, this notion of greatness. You know, America has done superb things, great things, and it has been a leader in a whole range of things, but we’re always a work in process. Looking back, “Make America Great Again” is inconsistent with who we are as Americans at our best where we look at the uncertain future, embrace it, and make it our own.

What bit of those statements is incorrect or unreasonable, specifically?

...here, here. Providing the context of Mr Holder's remarks is clearly out of scope for this thread : )

bhsmte · Mar 29, 2019

wing2000 said:
...here, here. Providing the context of Mr Holder's remarks is clearly out of scope for this thread : )

Yep. Sort of ruins everything, doesnt it?

usexpat97 · Mar 29, 2019

I don't know that America was NEVER great, but starting with Bush, America was committing great sin and far from great. 100,000 dead Iraqis because of WMD that were not there. Rendition. Waterboarding. Launching cruise missile strikes against countries we were not at war with. Murdering our own citizens on 9/11 and finger-pointing at the Arabs.

By the time Russia meddled in the U.S. election, the U.S.had already been meddling in other countries' for quite some time.

bhsmte · Mar 29, 2019

usexpat97 said:
I don't know that America was NEVER great, but starting with Bush, America was committing great sin and far from great. 100,000 dead Iraqis because of WMD that were not there. Rendition. Waterboarding. Launching cruise missile strikes against countries we were not at war with. Murdering our own citizens on 9/11 and finger-pointing at the Arabs.

By the time Russia meddled in the U.S. election, the U.S.had already been meddling in other countries' for quite some time.

The US has always meddled in other countries and even elections. People are either naive to that reality, or dont want to acknowledge it.

LoAmmi · Mar 29, 2019

usexpat97 said:
By the time Russia meddled in the U.S. election, the U.S.had already been meddling in other countries' for quite some time.

Look up Iranian history to see how we not only meddled in the affairs of other countries, but we straight up helped overthrow governments to prop up ones that would do our bidding. Iran was actually a pretty progressive place before we overthrew their government. It was our involvement that let the religious zealots eventually grab power.

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