How could an angel rebel against God?

Romans 8 said:

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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Indeed. There are many questions we cannot hope to know the answers to. Rationalizing the actions of God with mere human intellect is one of them!

DamianWarS said:

At best Lucifer is a misnomer for Satan

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I am willing to cede that point. Even if you use the name, Day Star [as given in the NKJV], he was still a good/elevated angel before he turned evil.

Contrary to what people here are saying, I believe the devil absolutely knows what it is like to be good. However the devil has been given over to a debased mind. The devil is probably aware of this but is unable to change it. Evidence that demons and the devil have seen God is the fact that the devil himself saw God and wanted His place on the throne. Also they always immediately recognized Christ when they saw Jesus on this earth.

I don't have as much of an issue over devils and demons becoming completely evil but rather I have a harder time with why apostates are a thing. Why would God allow people to taste salvation and then lose it all? Seems cruel. Why was Judas not protected like the other 11 disciples? Why did Jesus allow Judas to be deceived? It's the same question but for a different set of people.

Romans 8 said:

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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Angels have free will.

Cement said:

I dont know how God elects honestly. I dont think its because of some kind of works we do. Honestly the biggest mystery to me is asking why God loves me? If thinking as if I were in his place I would not even consider myself worthy of such love

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I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10 God knows the heart, so he knows, the elect, nothing is hidden. He loves, because he is love. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 John 4:8 Getting back to the original statement, perhaps Lucifer knowing that it is done unto you as you believe wanted to use this spiritual system for his own selfish interests, perverting the word, which is filled with spiritual power. A warning to those seeking self-aggrandizement.

Well... God knows everything.. but He tests people ALLOT? 1st Satan.. I don't know all the gifts He gave him but beauty wisdom.. "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty". And sin was FOUND in him. "You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever"


So... getting 1/3 to follow. Think.. you know Jesus do you? And yet at time you FREELY sin? Dont you ever wonder at times where that random thought that came out of no where came from?

For me.. like you said.. not really written so.. well take Noah. At that time angels came down and took some women and had kids. Those KIDS were never meant to be. And we have no clue how many were on the earth before the flood... 10k to 4billion or more we dont know. But when the flood happen.. where do you think all those half angels went? I believe those are the demons.. they no longer have a home.. always looking for one. Now there were some fallen angels God could not control that are deep in the earth in chains. The rest? Where does the bible say our fight is? " but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

Adam and Eve.. I am guessing they could understand animals. So did God know what was going to happen? Well God knows all. Yet after they sinned.. what GOD KEPT testing them? "Adam where are you?" "What did you do?" "did you eat of the tree I told you not to" question after question. God was testing them? God kicks them out.. KNOWING what was going to happen? ""lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". Didnt God know?

Since He is GOD... going with this is FAR above my pay grade

Nope. no mistaske. He just made angels with the same gift He made us with - free will. If He wanted robots that were programmed to do only His will, He could have created angels - or us - that way.

Sabertooth said:

They are not born of a common, fallen ancestor as we are. By all indications, they are not "born" at all, but rather, created spontaneously.

We know there are no "parent" angels producing "child" angels, because Jesus said,

"For in the resurrection [people] neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 NKJV

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I was refering you your comment about them not having the natural desire to sin.

How do you know?

thecolorsblend said:

I think it's about knowledge. We ate the fruit. We now have the knowledge of good and evil. It's part of the inherited human condition now.

We will be redeemed some day but that awareness will stay with us.

Angels don't have it. Fallen angels don't know what it is to be good. Good angels don't know what it is to be fallen. We are fallen but we have knowledge of both good and evil.

As you know, we have been bought with a price. After we are redeemed, I think it can be logically argued that we could possibly exist on a different (higher?) plane than angels do because they only know one mode of being whereas we know both good and evil, AND we will have been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

When the faithful experience the Beatific Vision and see God's face, we will be as utterly faithful and obedient to God as any of the good angels. But unlike the good angels, we will have full knowledge of good and evil, which is something they can't possibly know.

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How do you know fallen angels dont know what it means to be good?

How do you know angels dont have the full knowledge of good and evil? Just because man had to learn it the hard was does not preclude angels from also knowing.

You dont believe angels had to weight good and evil before some chose to fall?

Jonaitis said:

What I think about it may not be a biblically strong argument to most, but I do not see them able to fall anymore. Just as there are an elect of men, there are an elect of angels, some to eternal life and others to eternal punishment. Whatever happened made that distinction. Those that did not fall are secured in Christ in some way by his divine power.

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The angels in heaven had free choice (Gods way or their own way) ... they made their permanent choice for eternity. Likewise, we on earth have free choice .... and that choice is/will be permanent as well. Choose God/Christ or not ... knowing the choice will be permanent for eternity.

Natsumi Lam said:

How do you know fallen angels dont know what it means to be good?

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I don't know. I'm drawing upon some of the Catholic Church's angelology and demonology while making some of my own conjectures. I don't proclaim any of this as fact. I do believe it is reasonable, however.

Natsumi Lam said:

How do you know angels dont have the full knowledge of good and evil?

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See above.

Natsumi Lam said:

Just because man had to learn it the hard was does not preclude angels from also knowing.

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True.

Natsumi Lam said:

You dont believe angels had to weight good and evil before some chose to fall?

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I personally don't think they had experience with either before they made their decision to either serve or reject God. I think they were shown all of creation, the earth, the entire cosmos, told that God created all of that and then asked if they wanted to serve God.

You are welcome to believe what you want. I'm just throwing out my viewpoint; I'm not attempting to persuade anybody about anything.

Jonaitis said:

It is safe to say that Satan was on a conditional footing similar to Adam in the Garden, so that he was able to fall by his own will.

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That sounds like a good explanation to me!


I also like what a near death experiencer was shown about the fall of Lucifer:

Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com):
Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"

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Romans 8 said:

If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

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Yes. Rebellion is that of witchcraft. Imo God sees it as an abomination and will not be around it.

Romans 8 said:

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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Like Adam and Eve, they were given a choice. What more can we ask from a loving God.

Romans 8 said:

Source: Christian forums. That's why I asked if this is correct. Thanks for clarifying

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you have to remember the passage is allegorical so the imagery in the allegory may not necessarily be how things went. This is similar to Ezekiel 28 which is like how the Isaiah text is directed to the King of Babalyon, Ezekiel is directed to the King of Trye but both are thought to be allegories for Satan. We know these are allegories because 1. they are explicitly about someone else and from images like saying God lives on a mountain. These should be looked at as broad strokes not fine detail.

Ezekiel has no Latin names but there are verses that stand out

v7-8,12-17 ...and pierce your shining splendor. They will bring you down to the pit ... You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God ... You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you ... You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you ... Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub ... you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth

so if you're looking for more Latin words in your vocabulary try looking up some of those, they are just as meaningful to call Satan any of these names as it is to call him Lucifer.

up until the 16 century before English translations came out and before the printing press was invented (mid 15th century) Latin was the only language of the church (the western church, ie Rome), it still continued after this but the Reformation split it up quite a bit. People favouring Latin words as somehow more important would make sense because the church favoured it and it became a holy language but that's just silliness and is a form of folk-Christianity or a pagan value

Romans 8 said:

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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Again, like with Adam and Eve, this is an issue of free will choice.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:15).

God made angels and mankind with the capacity to obey or not obey. God making a being to have an equal capacity to go in either direction (obey or not obey) does not mean God wanted his creation to sin, and it does not mean God placed inside them some kind of desire to sin (So as to influence them into sinning). 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. James 1:13 says that God does not tempt man to do evil. Man is drawn away and enticed by his own lusts and desires. Again, this is all about the equal choice. God did not build them with inclination to sin. They chose to sin having free will choice to disobey in that moment.

Romans 8 said:

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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There is an answer in God’s Word focusing on your assumption. First of all, Jesus The Christ pointed out that seeing Him was like seeing God The Father. Lowly and meek with infinite power tells me that the fallen had no idea of just how powerful God The Father is. Because of God’s Nature, He wouldn’t show off or give up His Total capability especially to the fallen whom God knew would fall in advance. The fallen will answer and according to God’s Word have already tried to get Enoch to plead with God on their behalf as I recall reading in The Book of Enoch.

Isa.45

1. 
   [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Evil exists to try the faithful.

Jas.1

1. 
   [13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Romans 8 said:

They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them.

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I don't think so. One of a list of things God could not do is to create an equal. God therefore can only create lesser than Him. Attributes given by God that are like God are still there unless they were annihilated completely. Are they still intelligent? are they still of their own volition?. We humans are not without sin and therefore fails the standard of God too.

Romans 8 said:

God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

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I think you are right that it is God's plan. He who has foreknowledge saw what it would cost, nevertheless in order for Love to prevail went ahead and created... first the heavenly beings then the earthly beings. Free will seems to be an important element intertwined in the expression of Love, free will is yes and no, plus and negative, so it carries a nasty side, that is the cost for Agape Love it seems. I believe all heavenly beings like "Lucifer" are endowed with free will (I'm not so sure about those hybrids though but don't tell them I said it when we meet them). And so are we humans, created a little lower than the angels.

Agape Love surely is the purpose of creation for in order for it to be expressed, the creator must express it before the creature could.

It can be a can of worms to open. The simple logic behind all this is that freewill signifies division. Freewill is more like a choice between 0 and 1. If you have ever learned the math of statistics and probabilities, there is something called expected outcome. If people are given the choices of 0 or 1, logically and mathematically some will choose 0 while others will choose 1.

When angels and humans are to be given freewill to choose between God and sin, it simultaneously means they will divide no matter what. By the same mathematical behavior, people are normalized in a bell-shape distribution. God can thus make a cut in this bell shape to say that men are to be saved through the narrow gate.

All left now is for God to choose an environment for both angels and humans to divide as expected but in a controlled fashion. Angels are created/born as servants of God, they are given a lesser degree of freewill than humans. They know God from the very beginning of their lives. Naturally their division is in an environment surrounding God.

While humans have to be divided outside God's dwelling realm ever since Adam was driven out of Eden by God's Law. Satan is very much familiar with God's Law (perhaps except for the part of Jesus Christ somehow). When he tempted Eve and subsequently Adam to break the Law, he knows that all humans afterward will have to live outside God's realm by the the very Law of God. Then not a single human can abide by God's Law to pass the final judgment after they are put to earth which is literally a realm of Satan himself. Not a single human has the hope of entering the final Heaven (after the final judgment, i.e., after the expected division is done). Thus God's plan of bringing humans to the final Heaven will have to come to an end. God is thus defeated.

However somehow, the Law part mentioning how Jesus saves is kept from the reach of Satan. Satan thinks that he can defeat God but he has missed out the part how Jesus can save. So in the end, Satan is the one defeated due to a miscalculation.

To put this in another way, if without Jesus at all the end result will be that more than half of the angels can pass the final judgment to complete the division and to enter the final Heaven, while no men not a single one can pass the final judgment to enter the eternal realm of Heaven (i.e., the mathematical bell curve will fall off completely when making a cut by God's Law).