I thought Satan was cast out of Heaven already?

mmksparbud · Mar 27, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
You don't get both, it's one or the other. Either Christ paid for one's sin, or they pay for their own sin. Those atoned for will get what they've always wanted - an eternity with God. Those not atoned for will also get what they've always wanted - an eternity without God.

I know you don't get both! The wicked is judgement and punishment---the saved it's reward. Again---where does it say the wicked get eternal life? How can you go to hell immediately after death before there has been a judgment that that is where you are going when that doesn't happen until after the 1000 year reign of the saved with Jesus in heaven?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Righterzpen · Mar 27, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Again---where does it say the wicked get eternal life?

Define "eternal life"?

The unregenerate do earn an everlasting punishment. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:13-14

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever..." Revelation 14:11

mmksparbud said:
How can you go to hell immediately after death before there has been a judgment that that is where you are going when that doesn't happen until after the 1000 year reign

"Sheol" which is translated "hell" in English, is not the place of final judgement. The lake of fire is the place of final judgement. "Hell" is a holding place for unregenerate souls until the final resurrection.

mmksparbud · Mar 27, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Define "eternal life"?

The unregenerate do earn an everlasting punishment. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:13-14

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever..." Revelation 14:11

"Sheol" which is translated "hell" in English, is not the place of final judgement. The lake of fire is the place of final judgement. "Hell" is a holding place for unregenerate souls until the final resurrection.

Eternal existence is eternal life.

Lake of fire is the final punishment---where the wicked go after they are judged. They are judged "according to their works." It is an everlasting punishment---not everlasting punishment. Like Sodom and are an example of what the wicked get---they burn with an eternal fire--Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning, but they are still ashes. The result is permanent---the punishing is not. An unquenchable fire is one that can not be put out--it goes out only once there is nothing left to burn. The smoke goes up forever---just as when you blow out a match, the smoke ascends up into the atmosphere.

martymonster · Mar 28, 2019

friend of said:
Revelation 12:8-12

Says that Satan hasn't been cast out of Heaven... but isn't he here operating and controlling the world and plotting at this moment? I'm kinda confused because Rev 12 says Satan will be cast out in the future, so that means that Satan is... still in Heaven? If anyone can lend some insight here that would be great.

The heavens are between your ears. Satan falling from heaven, is him being cast down within you, meaning, he has had dominion over you your whole life, but it will come to an end at the time that the Father has predetermined.

Erik Nelson · Mar 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Well, we know specifically from John 12:31 when Satan was cast out.

The context of Luke 10:18 is that the 70 are relaying to Jesus "We can cast out devils in your name." And Jesus makes this statement about "I beheld Satan falling from heaven." And this being the reason that they can cast out devils; because even at this point; He has dominion over Satan.

Now Jesus making reference to an event that hasn't happened yet, but He's seen it "in past tense"; is probably eluding to what He saw in "eternity" probably prior to being incarnated. Remember, the Godhead planned this entire thing out before creation ever commenced and in a very real way, outside of time that operates in the created world; there still is the "eternal domaine of God".

Jesus is the lamb "slain from the foundations of the world"; (Revelation 13:8) so everything that happens in time, is already happened outside of time. Kind of hard for us to wrap our brains around I know; because we are confined to time as it exists in the universe we live it. Time is a fixed "law" that only goes in one direction. "Eternity" though has it's own "rules".

Think of the created universe like a sphere that exists inside the eternal domaine of God. Inside the sphere, nothing created is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal or immortal; yet "everything" (i.e. God) outside of this sphere is.

So Jesus speaking of bearing witness to an event that hasn't happened yet in "spherical time"; very well could have been something witnessed of in eternity. Or of more probable "revelation" to Jesus "in the flesh"; probably was recollected to his earthly existence in a dream.

Psalm 139 talks about that. A lot of what Jesus came to understand about His life and purpose, came to Him in dreams. His dreams functioned psychologically to the same purpose ours do. They help our brains organize, process and make sense of our waking existence. This is why things we've been mulling over the answers to, sometimes the answer comes to us in our sleep and in the dream it's as clear as can be. (Now how muddy does that become upon waking? Sometimes it stays clear.)

So that is probably the more likely aspect of this "imperfect tense" verbiage.

John 12:31 = cast out of THIS world IE Earth. Not heaven.

Erik Nelson · Mar 28, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I interpret St. Luke 10:18 as saying the devil was cast out at that time. I'm open to correction on that but I don't really see any reason to change my view of it since the text since fairly self-explanatory.

As a Preterist, I see Revelation 20:1-3 saying that the devil is bound from deceiving the nations right now as he did prior to Our Lord's advent.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
= the nativity through ascension, 3BC - 30AD

v13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
= Pagan Roman persecution of Christians Specially under emperor Nero, 30 to 70.

14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
= flight from Jerusalem to Pella from 70 to 73AD

15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
= Jewish War 66-73ad blunted pagan persecution of Christians

the CRUCIFIXION seems to have caused heaven to cast out the fallen Angels to Earth.

The Righterzpen · Mar 28, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Eternal existence is eternal life.

Show me scripture verse that supports your claim here.

mmksparbud said:
The smoke goes up forever---just as when you blow out a match, the smoke ascends up into the atmosphere.

When the fire goes out, there's no more smoke. "... smoke of their torment..." can not "ascend forever" if the torment has ceased. That is illogical.

The Righterzpen · Mar 28, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
John 12:31 = cast out of THIS world IE Earth. Not heaven.

Where is Satan now if he's cast out of this world? Even if we were to say he's chained in the bottomless pit; he's still the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. Satan being "cast out of this world" doesn't make sense? It would make more sense that "the judgement of this world" is now noted because Satan is cast out of heaven.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

mmksparbud · Mar 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Show me scripture verse that supports your claim here.

When the fire goes out, there's no more smoke. "... smoke of their torment..." can not "ascend forever" if the torment has ceased. That is illogical.

Well---what in the world do you think eternal life means? It is a figure of speech---smoke goes up into the atmosphere, it just keeps going up and there is tons of smoke after a fire---just ask anyone who has gone through a forest fire, I have. It just goes up and up and eventually disappears into the atmosphere. It lingers forever. Like when you're waiting at the doctor's office---that takes forever, and getting put on terminal hold on the phone--takes forever. We use that term for everything that takes a long time. Hanna gave her son to work in the temple---forever. It means till the thing ends, or dies.

The Righterzpen · Mar 28, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Well---what in the world do you think eternal life means? It is a figure of speech---smoke goes up into the atmosphere, it just keeps going up and there is tons of smoke after a fire---just ask anyone who has gone through a forest fire, I have. It just goes up and up and eventually disappears into the atmosphere. It lingers forever. Like when you're waiting at the doctor's office---that takes forever, and getting put on terminal hold on the phone--takes forever. We use that term for everything that takes a long time. Hanna gave her son to work in the temple---forever. It means till the thing ends, or dies.

You believe what you want to believe. I'm not going to stop you. You're arguments and lines of reasoning don't convince me. Nor do I see them as Scriptural - but that's between you and God.

You want to convince me of something show me Bible verses.

mmksparbud · Mar 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
You believe what you want to believe. I'm not going to stop you. You're arguments and lines of reasoning don't convince me. Nor do I see them as Scriptural - but that's between you and God.

You want to convince me of something show me Bible verses.

Not trying to convince you. You are interpreting according to what you have been taught instead of through the actual biblical meanings. The concept of an immortal soul came about through Greek philosophy that crept into the church. Just read your verses through a different lens, but everyone makes up their own mind as to what to believe the bible is saying.

The Righterzpen · Mar 28, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Not trying to convince you. You are interpreting according to what you have been taught instead of through the actual biblical meanings. The concept of an immortal soul came about through Greek philosophy that crept into the church. Just read your verses through a different lens, but everyone makes up their own mind as to what to believe the bible is saying.

And..... when I read "the souls under the alter" in heaven; or of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; or "absent from body is to be present with the Lord" Believers are not unconsciously present with Christ in heaven. Your arguments make no sense in light of these other Scriptures and so thus they do not convince me that what you claim is true.

mmksparbud · Mar 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
And..... when I read "the souls under the alter" in heaven; or of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; or "absent from body is to be present with the Lord" Believers are not unconsciously present with Christ in heaven. Your arguments make no sense in light of these other Scriptures and so thus they do not convince me that what you claim is true.[/QUOTE
So you really believe God keeps souls under the altar??? Pretty crammed. That is also one huge bosom. So is the altar on top of Abraham's bosom or under it? You view all the other scriptures, of which there are over 30 that state that there is no consciousness after death through the lens of some Greek philosophers and change the whole rest of the bible to suit this theory---OK--I do it the other way around, I fit all the scriptures together and compare to the character of God before making a decision. I'm not looking to be right----I'm looking to be scripturally accurate. Doing so also means I investigate what the words originally meant to those during that time, in that culture, not to modern western man.

Erik Nelson · Mar 29, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Where is Satan now if he's cast out of this world? Even if we were to say he's chained in the bottomless pit; he's still the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. Satan being "cast out of this world" doesn't make sense? It would make more sense that "the judgement of this world" is now noted because Satan is cast out of heaven.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

the verb tense is future indicative passive. Third person singular

"now the archon of the cosmos of this will be cast out"

It was imminent as of the passion week.

From Revelation 12. The casting out occurs after the nativity and ascension. When God raised JESUS UP to His right hand in heaven. Then The adversary was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

The Righterzpen · Mar 29, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
the verb tense is future indicative passive. Third person singular

"now the archon of the cosmos of this will be cast out"

It was imminent as of the passion week.

From Revelation 12. The casting out occurs after the nativity and ascension. When God raised JESUS UP to His right hand in heaven. Then The adversary was cast out of Heaven to the Earth.

This verse presents an interesting contrast.

"Now" (present tense) is (present tense) the judgement of this world; now (present tense) the prince of this world "shall be" (future) cast out.

Is it imminent upon the completion of the phrase at the time Jesus spoke it? Thus question requires more digging!

The Righterzpen · Mar 29, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Not trying to convince you. You are interpreting according to what you have been taught instead of through the actual biblical meanings. The concept of an immortal soul came about through Greek philosophy that crept into the church. Just read your verses through a different lens, but everyone makes up their own mind as to what to believe the bible is saying.

Like I said; believe what you want. I'm sticking to what Scripture says. If it says "souls under the alter" and indicates that people are conscious after death - than I believe that. It doesn't matter how "big" "Abraham's bosom" or the "alter" is. That's what it says.

The verses you've quoted about "unconsciousness" are not speaking of what you claim they are.

How do you take a bunch of Scripture verses and than "compare them to the character of God"? How do you know what the character of God is other than from the Scripture? That doesn't make sense either.

you say:
"I'm not looking to be right----I'm looking to be scripturally accurate. Doing so also means I investigate what the words originally meant to those during that time, in that culture, not to modern western man."

And how are we told to study Scripture? We are not told to look to what people thought it meant in the past. We are told to compare Scripture to itself to delineate the meaning.

mmksparbud · Mar 29, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Like I said; believe what you want. I'm sticking to what Scripture says. If it says "souls under the alter" and indicates that people are conscious after death - than I believe that. It doesn't matter how "big" "Abraham's bosom" or the "alter" is. That's what it says.

The verses you've quoted about "unconsciousness" are not speaking of what you claim they are.

How do you take a bunch of Scripture verses and than "compare them to the character of God"? How do you know what the character of God is other than from the Scripture? That doesn't make sense either.

you say:
"I'm not looking to be right----I'm looking to be scripturally accurate. Doing so also means I investigate what the words originally meant to those during that time, in that culture, not to modern western man."

And how are we told to study Scripture? We are not told to look to what people thought it meant in the past. We are told to compare Scripture to itself to delineate the meaning.

Believe what you want---I am sticking with the scriptures---all of them.
I don't pick and choose what I want to fit into my belief, I let the verses tell me what to belief. And that does include finding out what certain words meant to those people in that culture.

Erik Nelson · Mar 29, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
This verse presents an interesting contrast.

"Now" (present tense) is (present tense) the judgement of this world; now (present tense) the prince of this world "shall be" (future) cast out.

Is it imminent upon the completion of the phrase at the time Jesus spoke it? Thus question requires more digging!

Think there's only one verb in the sentence, there's just the one verb. "Will be thrown, will be cast"

The Righterzpen · Mar 29, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Think there's only one verb in the sentence, there's just the one verb. "Will be thrown, will be cast"

Well, "is" is a verb too; and the first "is" is in the present tense.

But if we say in English; now I will go to the store. What does that mean? What you are going to do is about to commence. It might not be a completed action, but it has already begun.

Someone in another thread had posed the question of whether or not "the battle of Armageddon" was the same event as "battle of gog and maygog". One commencing at the beginning of the "millennium" and the other at the end? Good question - I haven't researched it yet. Yet if that is the case; maybe this Satan being cast out of heaven is "the battle of Armageddon"? And the "battle" isn't over until the resurrection?

The Righterzpen · Mar 29, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Believe what you want---I am sticking with the scriptures---all of them.
I don't pick and choose what I want to fit into my belief, I let the verses tell me what to belief. And that does include finding out what certain words meant to those people in that culture.

What ever.

I thought Satan was cast out of Heaven already?

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