If you are Israel

Tree of Life

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There is a distinct difference between those of the nations and those of Israel.

I don't think so. I believe that the 144,000 and the innumerable multitude represent the same group. Revelation is funny like that. It's like how the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the Lamb that was Slain also represent the same person.
 
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shilohsfoal

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I don't think so. I believe that the 144,000 and the innumerable multitude represent the same group. Revelation is funny like that. It's like how the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the Lamb that was Slain also represent the same person.

No,they are not the same group.
Those of Israel expirience something far different than those of the nations.
No one can,learn thier song.Not those of the nations.

Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

They are set apart from everyone.
 
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Tree of Life

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No,they are not the same group.
Those of Israel expirience something far different than those of the nations.
No one can,learn thier song.Not those of the nations.

Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

Unless they are the same group! Think about that...

Revelation does this a number of times where two images are given that represent the same reality. It's been a minute since I taught through Revelation but some that come to mind immediately are...

1. The Lion and the Lamb of Revelation 4.
2. The trampling of the temple and the trampling of the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Unless they are the same group! Think about that...

Revelation does this a number of times where two images are given that represent the same reality. It's been a minute since I taught through Revelation but some that come to mind immediately are...

1. The Lion and the Lamb of Revelation 4.
2. The trampling of the temple and the trampling of the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Revelation shows they are not the same.
First there are 12,000 from each twelve tribes of Israel sealed with Gods name in thier foreheads.

Then there appears a great multitude from every nation,and tongue.

John did not see them as one group.He specificly detailed the first 144,000 ,then described the great multitude.
 
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Revelation shows they are not the same.
First there are 12,000 from each twelve tribes of Israel sealed with Gods name in thier foreheads.

Then there appears a greay multitude from every nation,and tongue.

John did not see them as one group.He specificly detailed the first 144,000 ,then described the great multitude.

Yes the images are certainly different. A sealed group of 144,000 called "Israel" is a very different image than a multitude that cannot be numbered and is from every nation. But the images of a Lion and a Slain Lamb are also very different. And yet both of these images are only referring to one person - Jesus.

The image of 144,000 sealed for salvation describes the church as a fixed number that cannot be changed as is kept by God for salvation. It is called "Israel" because it is continuous with God's purposes and promises from all ages.

The image of a mixed multitude from every nation that cannot be numbered describes the church as incredibly large and international.

Both of the images refer to the church, but each images highlights a different truth about the church.
 
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As a parallel, look at the Lion and Lamb encounter in Revelation 4-5. Therein, John does not see the Lion. He hears about the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. But when he turns to see, he sees a Lamb that was slain.

The same dynamic is happening with the 144,000 and multitude. John doesn't see the 144,000. He only hears about them. But when he turns to see them, he sees an innumerable multitude from every nation.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Yes the images are certainly different. A sealed group of 144,000 called "Israel" is a very different image than a multitude that cannot be numbered and is from every nation. But the images of a Lion and a Slain Lamb are also very different. And yet both of these images are only referring to one person - Jesus.

The image of 144,000 sealed for salvation describes the church as a fixed number that cannot be changed as is kept by God for salvation. It is called "Israel" because it is continuous with God's purposes and promises from all ages.

The image of a mixed multitude from every nation that cannot be numbered describes the church as incredibly large and international.

Both of the images refer to the church, but each images highlights a different truth about the church.

So are you of one of the tribes of Israel or are you of the nations?
 
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shilohsfoal

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As a parallel, look at the Lion and Lamb encounter in Revelation 4-5. Therein, John does not see the Lion. He hears about the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. But when he turns to see, he sees a Lamb that was slain.

The same dynamic is happening with the 144,000 and multitude. John doesn't see the 144,000. He only hears about them. But when he turns to see them, he sees an innumerable multitude from every nation.

You must not be very familiar with revelation.
You say John did not see the 144,000.
John says he saw 144,000.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Be careful to tell the truth.
 
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You must not be very familiar with revelation.
You say John did not see the 144,000.
John says he saw 144,000.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Be careful to tell the truth.

Well now you are pulling from an entirely different section of Revelation. In Revelation 7, John does not see the 144,000. He hears them being called out, but when he turns to see, he sees the innumerable multitude.
 
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shilohsfoal

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According to Revelation 7, that question no longer matters.

If you are mot one of the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel,then you are not.
Thetes no shame in admitting being of the nations if that is what you are.
 
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If you are mot one of the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel,then you are not.
Thetes no shame in admitting being of the nations if that is what you are.

Every Christian is part of both groups because the two groups are the same.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Well now you are pulling from an entirely different section of Revelation. In Revelation 7, John does not see the 144,000. He hears them being called out, but when he turns to see, he sees the innumerable multitude.

John testifies,he saw 144,000 standing on mt zion.

There is no great multitude there.
It must be elsewhere.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
 
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No they are quite different.
One group is of the tribes of Israel.

The other group is of the nations.

They are actually the same group. The church is both a sealed group called "Israel" and an innumerable multitude from every nation.
 
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