Food for thought..., what do you think of this?

marineimaging

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Just a thought. And then in retrospect I realized that my journey was one that does not need to be made. The Bible is the source of our understanding of God and does not need any greater definition of how we got here and of faith. Faith arrived without logic, survives without reason, and is blessed by God himself. There is no need for anything or anybody else.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Weren't those bones left here by giant alien picnicers? ;)

On second thought, if we start to see fossils as Lucifer/Satan salting the geologic column, then we must begin to see him as a creator. I believe that leads into some dangerous theological territory.
 
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jayem

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The early 20th century author Anatole France (a Nobel Prize winner) wrote a novel "The Revolt of the Angels." It's a fantasy about an angel who comes to realize that everything people have always believed about God and Satan is reversed. God is actually the evil tyrant, and Satan is the benevolent lover of mankind. God is directly responsible for all the pain and misery in the world. And he inspired the Bible writers to compose a false narrative to conceal his true nature.

So here's some food for thought. Other than faith, how can you know that God is really good?
 
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Halbhh

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The early 20th century author Anatole France (a Nobel Prize winner) wrote a novel "The Revolt of the Angels." It's a fantasy about an angel who comes to realize that everything people have always believed about God and Satan is reversed. God is actually the evil tyrant, and Satan is the benevolent lover of mankind. God is directly responsible for all the pain and misery in the world. And he inspired the Bible writers to compose a false narrative to conceal his true nature.

So here's some food for thought. Other than faith, how can you know that God is really good?

Which one would you think says this:

“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!

"Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow."


and

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

and warns those who believe in Him:

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

-- That they are not to only admire these instructions as if ideals, distant goals to make token efforts towards... But instead must do them now or else in time eventually be destroyed.

Which of the 2 do you think is telling us these commands?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The early 20th century author Anatole France (a Nobel Prize winner) wrote a novel "The Revolt of the Angels." It's a fantasy about an angel who comes to realize that everything people have always believed about God and Satan is reversed. God is actually the evil tyrant, and Satan is the benevolent lover of mankind. God is directly responsible for all the pain and misery in the world. And he inspired the Bible writers to compose a false narrative to conceal his true nature.

So here's some food for thought. Other than faith, how can you know that God is really good?

Obey Him and see what happens. :bow:
 
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Halbhh

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Obey Him and see what happens. :bow:

And might we suggest to the doubtful, it's wise to try out the instructions from the one in post #10, because my experience was it's a lot more the outcome of the very best (the more unusually good) experiences one ever has, giving a good life with good relationships and such, and makes it easier to sleep at night than the other competing ways of life. Why not do what's best for you?

The early 20th century author Anatole France (a Nobel Prize winner) wrote a novel "The Revolt of the Angels." It's a fantasy about an angel who comes to realize that everything people have always believed about God and Satan is reversed. God is actually the evil tyrant, and Satan is the benevolent lover of mankind. God is directly responsible for all the pain and misery in the world. And he inspired the Bible writers to compose a false narrative to conceal his true nature.

So here's some food for thought. Other than faith, how can you know that God is really good?
 
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jayem

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Which one would you think says this:

“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!

"Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow."


and

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

and warns those who believe in Him:

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

-- That they are not to only admire these instructions as if ideals, distant goals to make token efforts towards... But instead must do them now or else in time eventually be destroyed.

Which of the 2 do you think is telling us these commands?

But an evil god would also be deceitful. As I stated, his scripture would contain some worthy teachings, and promises of redemption for those who obey him. All of those Bible passages could have been inspired by God, because that's what he wants you think. But it's only to disguise his true nature. A deceitful god would allow some answered prayers, love, and happiness. God dangles goodness and benevolence here and there because it maintains the deception. If everything was unrelenting suffering, we would know nothing else. And that's not what a deceptive god wants.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Just a thought. I believe in creation and that takes me to a walk with God. God reminds me of His created angel, Lucifer. Lucifer departed heaven and was followed by 1/3rd of the angels who are all doomed to the eternal lake of fire. Meanwhile, they get to play games. The Word of God proves that. If Lucifer got to test the first two humans with his lies, and he was allowed to test Job, and even allowed to test God's only begotten son as well, then what makes you think that he (Lucifer) isn't allowed to test the rest of the world? People get smarter, start digging deeper, they are trying harder and harder to prove that God doesn't exist so that they don't have to follow His rules. So, Lucifer gets to hide bones for people to find and ultimately test their belief. What better to take the mind back to a false beginning than to follow the imaginary life-cycle of critters along the way of time? They can't be challenged because they can't speak. Their only language is that made up by men. The same men who say that a baby in the womb isn't a living creation..., and we are supposed to trust them? Lucifer can just as easily plant bone fragments to lead people on a path of disbelief as he did when taking Jesus to the top of the mountain. Take this thought on a journey and see where you end up.

I took this thought on a journey and ended up at my local ice cream parlor. I opted for jamoca almond fudge.
 
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Halbhh

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But an evil god would also be deceitful. As I stated, his scripture would contain some worthy teachings, and promises of redemption for those who obey him. All of those Bible passages could have been inspired by God, because that's what he wants you think. But it's only to disguise his true nature. A deceitful god would allow some answered prayers, love, and happiness. God dangles goodness and benevolence here and there because it maintains the deception. If everything was unrelenting suffering, we would know nothing else. And that's not what a deceptive god wants.

Then, logically to me, actually at one point in my own life, the solution to the question: Is this the best philosophy or way of life? -- was to actually put the propositions directly to the test, experimentally, repeatedly, for years, to gather data sufficient to see patterns.

Just my own method of knowing, from a hard sciences background. What is a good way will produces good results. What is the best way will produce the best results, better than competing ways. That's pretty clear, and so therefore after the unexpectedly good results of "Love your neighbor as yourself" I then tested additional propositions, past the first, continuing. And then more. Continuing. Over years. Why rush I thought -- I was young, and I liked how my life was sharply improving from His principles put into action. So I tested further ideas (as I thought of them) He had said. You could too, if you like to have definite clear observables, like me.
 
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jayem

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Obey Him and see what happens. :bow:

What would that prove? Isn't it obvious that in this life the righteous often suffer, while the wicked prosper? We can see with our own eyes that there are many people who have lived as exemplary a life as is humanly possible-- who sincerely try to follow God's word--yet still experience pain, injustice, and misfortune. While is exactly what you'd expect in a world ruled by a duplicitous, malevolent god.
 
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jayem

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Then, logically to me, actually at one point in my own life, the solution to the question: Is this the best philosophy or way of life? -- was to actually put the propositions directly to the test, experimentally, repeatedly, for years, to gather data sufficient to see patterns.

Just my own method of knowing, from a hard sciences background. What is a good way will produces good results. What is the best way will produce the best results, better than competing ways. That's pretty clear, and so therefore after the unexpectedly good results of "Love your neighbor as yourself" I then tested additional propositions, past the first, continuing. And then more. Continuing. Over years. Why rush I thought -- I was young, and I liked how my life was sharply improving from His principles put into action. So I tested further ideas (as I thought of them) He had said. You could too, if you like to have definite clear observables, like me.

And that's great. We would all have better lives if we treated each other with kindness and benevolence. But it's not evidence that those virtues are a reflection of God. In fact, that's the message of the novel I mentioned in my first post. The angel who discovers God's evil nature wants Satan to lead a second rebellion against the tyrant. But Satan won't do it. He feels the best way to overthrow God is for people to embrace reason, knowledge, and understanding. If they do, they'll learn that showing love, compassion, decency, and personal integrity are the best ways to live. And these are actually Satan's values, not God's. I know this idea is blasphemous according to traditional Judeo-Christian morality. But my point is that you cannot demonstrate that moral rectitude originates from God. You can only believe it as a matter of faith.
 
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Halbhh

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What would that prove? Isn't it obvious that in this life the righteous often suffer, while the wicked prosper? We can see with our own eyes that there are many people who have lived as exemplary a life as is humanly possible-- who sincerely try to follow God's word--yet still experience pain, injustice, and misfortune.

That's right. Though it's not everything yet, of course. There are additional things that happen in life past the powerful effects of other people doing wrongs to us and good to us, and past the random effects of nature on us to our benefit or harm. Another big thing, perhaps the most important most of the time is what we ourselves do, and the natural and social and internal outcomes/consequences of our own actions that we ourselves choose to do. So, it's a lot of things, together.

While is exactly what you'd expect in a world ruled by a duplicitous, malevolent god.

Only if this temporary life were the only life, so that death of this mortal body was the final death. Then you'd have sometimes (for some people) often even close to the worst of the Book of Job without the unexpected things that get revealed such as in the middle of Job (and of course the reversal in the end). But the point in scripture is that there is more than meets the eye, and outcomes even here and now no one would think possible...if one goes the way (however unlikely seeming), not so obvious, that is being instructed.

You know, I think perhaps Ecclesiastes also will be very interesting (and surprising at times like it is to me) to you at some point. It could also be helpful in that it might show how there are subtle and interesting things in the texts that we would ever expect.
 
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Halbhh

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And that's great. We would all have better lives if we treated each other with kindness and benevolence. But it's not evidence that those virtues are a reflection of God. In fact, that's the message of the novel I mentioned in my first post. The angel who discovers God's evil nature wants Satan to lead a second rebellion against the tyrant. But Satan won't do it. He feels the best way to overthrow God is for people to embrace reason, knowledge, and understanding. If they do, they'll learn that showing love, compassion, decency, and personal integrity are the best ways to live. And these are actually Satan's values, not God's. I know this idea is blasphemous according to traditional Judeo-Christian morality. But my point is that you cannot demonstrate that moral rectitude originates from God. You can only believe it as a matter of faith.

As we know, an actual deceiver tells us some good things in order to mislead us into some bad things.

What would it mean to you, yourself, if every instruction from Jesus, every last one, benefits and makes your life better? If there are none, not even one, that go to a bad place over time (prove out over time, days or months later)? This made a sharp impression on me as I had expected some of them to be impractical or just not working. It went against my expectation when like number #3 I tried worked ("Love your enemies" -- not going to work I thought; the outcome seemed outright impossible, and it took repeated experiences to finally accept it was just the fact I could not deny or discount). And, then later another unlikely one, and then another unlikely seeming one -- each proved out unexpectedly good, when I didn't expect such outcomes (though I was beginning finally to doubt my own skepticism finally -- hit me 6 times and I begin to notice a pattern finally). See, an actual deceiver tells you some good things in order to mislead you into some bad things.

Think on it with a very neutral objective view if possible. It will help a lot not to expect the versions of God you heard about elsewhere are the actual real one in the scripture though!
 
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jayem

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As we know, an actual deceiver tells us some good things in order to mislead us into some bad things.

What would it mean to you, yourself, if every instruction from Jesus, every last one, benefits and makes your life better? If there are none, not even one, that go to a bad place over time (prove out over time, days or months later)? This made a sharp impression on me as I had expected some of them to be impractical or just not working. It went against my expectation when like number #3 I tried worked ("Love your enemies" -- not going to work I thought; the outcome seemed outright impossible, and it took repeated experiences to finally accept it was just the fact I could not deny or discount). And, then later another unlikely one, and then another unlikely seeming one -- each proved out unexpectedly good, when I didn't expect such outcomes (though I was beginning finally to doubt my own skepticism finally -- hit me 6 times and I begin to notice a pattern finally). See, an actual deceiver tells you some good things in order to mislead you into some bad things.

Think on it with a very neutral objective view if possible. It will help a lot not to expect the versions of God you heard about elsewhere are the actual real one in the scripture though!

I have read the 4 gospels. I'm not addressing the salvation aspect, just Jesus's moral teaching. Some of which is good and valid. Though it's not particularly unique. You can find much the same in Lao Tze or Zoroaster (who lived 1000 years before Jesus.) But some of his instruction (assuming he really said it) is highly questionable. 2 examples:

1) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Matt 10:37 (NASB)

In context, Jesus is stating what he expects of his followers. Which amounts to total devotion. But this is what egomaniacal cult leaders, like Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or those weirdo Scientologists tell their followers. Their allegiance to their creed (and by extension, to their leader) should be their highest priority in life.

2) He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Matt 12:30 (NASB)

IMO, this is one of Jesus's worst teachings. He's saying that if you don't follow him you're not just simply mistaken, or even a lost soul. You're actually an enemy. It's extremely prejudicial and almost paranoid. It's a dreadful attitude, which you don't find in other influential moral teachers like the Buddha, or Socrates.

Yes, these are my subjective opinions. If Jesus's teachings resonate with you, then by all means go for it. But I just don't see any way ideas like these would make my life better.
 
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Halbhh

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#1 is about whether Jewish believers would give up on this new Christianity when their Judaic parents, family members insisted they stop following this new way, this Jesus person, and come back to the temple.

#2 See the catch is Jesus's words actually are from God. They are the actual will of God, the new Covenant.

People usually killed prophets. And did again, but this time the stakes were higher.
 
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jayem

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#1 is about whether Jewish believers would give up on this new Christianity when their Judaic parents, family members insisted they stop following this new way, this Jesus person, and come back to the temple.

Jesus doesn't say that you're not worthy if you love your old religion. By the plain language of the text (and the NASB is an accurate word-for-word translation,) Jesus says if you love your parents or children more than me, you aren't worthy of me. As I said, that's the thinking of cult leaders. They expect total devotion to the cult, even if it means rejecting one's family. It's one thing if the new convert decides voluntarily to do this. It's disgraceful if he's pressured into doing so by pronouncing him unworthy if he still still loves and wants to maintain contact with his close relatives. I can't believe anyone would think that's an effective way to evangelize.

#2 See the catch is Jesus's words actually are from God. They are the actual will of God, the new Covenant.

People usually killed prophets. And did again, but this time the stakes were higher.

Again, the text doesn't say that. Your approach is an eisegesis. You're interpreting the passage by introducing a supposition or assumption that isn't explicitly stated, or clearly implied by the context. My Bible professor said eisegetics should be avoided.

But in any event, Matt 12:30 is a dangerous verse. I'm sure it was conveniently used in the past to justify the persecution of non-believers. Modern Christianity, to its credit, has largely grown out of that. I see this teaching as a throwback to old Hebrew tribalism, but now with a Christian face. To me, there's nothing godly about it whatsoever.
 
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Halbhh

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Jesus doesn't say that you're not worthy if you love your old religion. By the plain language of the text (and the NASB is an accurate word-for-word translation,) Jesus says if you love your parents or children more than me, you aren't worthy of me. As I said, that's the thinking of cult leaders. They expect total devotion to the cult, even if it means rejecting one's family. It's one thing if the new convert decides voluntarily to do this. It's disgraceful if he's pressured into doing so by pronouncing him unworthy if he still still loves and wants to maintain contact with his close relatives. I can't believe anyone would think that's an effective way to evangelize.



Again, the text doesn't say that. Your approach is an eisegesis. You're interpreting the passage by introducing a supposition or assumption that isn't explicitly stated, or clearly implied by the context. My Bible professor said eisegetics should be avoided.

But in any event, Matt 12:30 is a dangerous verse. I'm sure it was conveniently used in the past to justify the persecution of non-believers. Modern Christianity, to its credit, has largely grown out of that. I see this teaching as a throwback to old Hebrew tribalism, but now with a Christian face. To me, there's nothing godly about it whatsoever.
Yes we are to love God first, with all our heart, all our being, the widely known greatest commandment I just take for granted you know. To love family more than God is simply disconnecting or disbelief. On these questions we are discussing I can help you a lot more than you are thinking (if you can hear it) as I very well avoid reading my own ideas into the text. I've read the Gospels in that listening way 5-7 times each, many translations (including my old favorite the NASB), and the epistles fully many times, which echo and expand on them.

When the Jewish families became divided over Christ, as He said they would, three against two (Luke ch 12), ok, let's just use that full quote, it will help

"51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Right? Ok, so when This would happen, soon, which He knew His message would cause (check that full context in Bible Gateway passage: Luke 12 - New International Version)....

...ok? Then when it happened, then it's a moment when the believer will either cave to family pressure/harmony (did you see the context in luke ch12?) Or stay true, because they love Him more. See? If they love Him first, they won't cave to the false for harmony.

Here you can expect I know all the context extremely well -- and context for a verse in the gospels is at times not just a passage, but sometimes a full book as a whole, altogether, sometimes even other full books as being alluded to also (which I also know, because of that repeat reading with listening for total context) and so I get the verse meanings from context.

Just so you know how I learn the meanings. If you imagine I'm doing eisegesis, you'll only be imagining an unreal, even if it's what you are used to elsewhere.

I might fail to write clearly, or at not enough length, but you'll be hearing a view from entire books taken as an integrated whole, much like any good scholar source you are used to. But I may write unclearly at times.

So to summarize you are correct in that simple understanding of the verse, but incomplete. It's just the greatest commandment in an actual situation where one has to have integrity to continue in it. It doesn't actually mean we hate our family in order to love Christ even (do you recognize the wording?), but using the hyperbole (as He does in that other passage), it is as if we hate them in comparison to how much we love the truth.

That's actually not so different from an unbeliever family, where a person has integrity, and refuses to go along with something that is a wrong for the sake of easy harmony. Even if it means a fight. Because of integrity to what is right.

It's not that you assume (or every time) that standing up for what is right means you will lose those relationships forever, even if it feels at the moment you are disrupting them by refusing to accede.

You might or might not lose them forever, though often people do find they can reconcile even after days (or worse months, or worst of all, before the end of the mortal life). They can sometimes agree to disagree. Sometimes realize it isn't worth stopping loving over. But....when the ultimate meaning and center of life is involved, as here, in our very relation to what we see as the central point of life, how the Jewish family for instance relates to God, then that disagreement might sometimes not get reconciled anytime soon, and for some just not at all.
 
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Halbhh

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"#2 See the catch is Jesus's words actually are from God. They are the actual will of God, the new Covenant."

Again, the text doesn't say that. Your approach is an eisegesis. You're interpreting the passage by introducing a supposition or assumption that isn't explicitly stated, or clearly implied by the context. My Bible professor said eisegetics should be avoided.

But in any event, Matt 12:30 is a dangerous verse. I'm sure it was conveniently used in the past to justify the persecution of non-believers. Modern Christianity, to its credit, has largely grown out of that. I see this teaching as a throwback to old Hebrew tribalism, but now with a Christian face. To me, there's nothing godly about it whatsoever.

You don't remember it says that? ok. I think it will help very much for remembering and understanding to always read full context with a listening attitude (here I'm treating you like myself, assuming you are both able and humble and I don't have to protect ego -- the text has a lot in it, and who could remember it all with just one or two full readings even?)

This is such a powerful passage, and perhaps it's one I'm well suited to hear fully:

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

This is definitely a key thing to remember if you discuss much on the gospels. Some people say that they cannot be understood without faith, and that is true in some parts I think, because of the way one's assumptions affect one's perceptions. But it may be possible for someone who is able to read with sympathy to hear more than just a cynical reader. If you are able to read with a very full sympathy, that will go a long way to getting more of the meanings and retaining them for context elsewhere. It will also be more appropriate anyway -- why even bother to read anything without sympathy? One wants to be sure they really get the intended meaning before responding. (anything else wastes your own time I bet you'd agree, so this is about the how-to) So, therefore, even if it is an effort, and uncomfortable, the key is to lay aside preconception, lay aside whatever you already said or thought, and try to get it the way it's meant very fully, which relies entirely on the whole of it, that full context, reading as if there are no verse numbers, reading from start to finish, really listening. Even just to be able to respond to it as it actually is, instead of some other thing.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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By the plain language of the text (and the NASB is an accurate word-for-word translation,) Jesus says if you love your parents or children more than me, you aren't worthy of me.

He is also speaking of the future marriage of himself and the church. Here he is laying down the conditions of that betrothal. I expected my (future) wife to love me more than her family and enter into a relationship that did not include them. Recall that God instructs us to leave our parents and cleave to our wives (and husbands). This is the natural order of such things.
 
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