(In response to)..... The Problem of Evil?

cvanwey said:

good-
evil-
moral-
intention-

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The term "good" can be used in many different senses. I can think of at least "good" in a moral and teleological sense. I will just stick to the moral sense here.

Good in the moral sense would be whatever conforms to God's moral will as it is detailed in Scripture.
Evil in the moral sense would be whatever deviates from God's prescriptive will as it is detailed in Scripture.

"Moral" would have to do with God's standards of thought, word, and deed for persons.

"Intention" would have to do with designs, plans, purposes, etc... I'm fine with the standard dictionary definition. An intention would be an aim or a plan.

1.

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What was God's intention when creating the devil? My take... There exists a dichotomy of sorts.... Neither of which appears 'logical'. Meaning, God already knew Lucifer would later rebel, and is merely 'watching re-runs', so-to-speak? Or, God was unaware of Lucifer's later decision/choice to rebel?

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2. What was God's ultimate intention in creating humans, if God might have already known the ultimate outcome in it's entirety; that a deceiving force would later enter the picture?

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God's intentions in all that he does is his own glory.

3.

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If there exists no further sin in heaven, then why can't all humans reside in heaven postmortem? All humans were 'sinners', believers and non-believers. Apparently, the only major distinguishable difference between a human in heaven, and a human apart from heaven was repenting to Jesus (prior) to natural death. Why is it NOT permissible to allow humans to repent after natural death?

That's plenty to get us started. And again, this is an exploratory topic for me....

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People go to hell because they are unwilling to repent of their sin.

This thread should probably be five different threads.

It's my understanding that philosophers have generally concluded that there's no logical problem of evil. Logically, there could be sufficient reason for it. We can't prove that there isn't.

The real problem isn't logical. It's that many people don't find it plausible that there could actually be a sufficient reason. Wikipedia (and others) refer to an "Evidential problem of evil."

cvanwey said:

Attention all theists, please define the following terms:

good-
evil-
moral-
intention-

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good - God is good (His character and purpose described in the Bible)
evil - absence of good or going against good
moral - principles and rules, accepted notions... lets narrow that source down to: the Bible.
intention - not sure what you mean

cvanwey said:

Then please address these follow up questions:

1. What was God's intention when creating the devil? My take... There exists a dichotomy of sorts.... Neither of which appears 'logical'. Meaning, God already knew Lucifer would later rebel, and is merely 'watching re-runs', so-to-speak? Or, God was unaware of Lucifer's later decision/choice to rebel?

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cvanwey said:

2. What was God's ultimate intention in creating humans, if God might have already known the ultimate outcome in it's entirety; that a deceiving force would later enter the picture?

3. If there exists no further sin in heaven, then why can't all humans reside in heaven postmortem? All humans were 'sinners', believers and non-believers. Apparently, the only major distinguishable difference between a human in heaven, and a human apart from heaven was repenting to Jesus (prior) to natural death. Why is it NOT permissible to allow humans to repent after natural death?

That's plenty to get us started. And again, this is an exploratory topic for me....

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God's intention as far as I understand it, was to create beings like Himself (but obviously not equal) to share in perfect Love, a state of intimate existence with God. God created supernatural beings first, then created humans too. Imagers of God in the spiritual realm and imagers of God in the earthly realm.

Since God did not create automatons to love Him, we need the concept of free will (limited) to contrast that. Created beings were free to choose not to love, and not to love God.

Hebrews 9:27 says after death comes judgement, I don't know why you cannot repent after death, my guess is that after death, we have a new way of looking at time and the point of death to the point of judgement is such that there is no opportunity to reconsider and repent. Luke 16:26 speaks of a great chasm. Also your question assume that people will repent after death if given the opportunity Luke 16:31.

cvanwey said:

I would assume, preemptively, that God created humans in His likeness. Meaning, humans intrinsically 'know' the difference between 'good' and 'bad' instinctually? So when you state 'detailed in Scripture', is this always the case?

Furthermore, doesn't this description seem to indicate a 'moral dictator'? Meaning, 'whatever I don't like is considered 'wrong.' Especially when there may exist invalid reasoning for the disagreement??? Such a response seems to instead imply 'divine dictate', and whomever disagrees, is 'wrong.' But is such a method 'just', or are humans to instead attempt to merely follow commands given by a supreme being?

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I think the idea of "image" is more to do with representation rather than knowledge of good and evil, which as we know didn't happen until the first human couple ate of the the fruit of that tree, an event after man and woman was created.

cvanwey said:

1. An all good and all powerful God would not allow evil to exist unless he had some morally sufficient reason.
2. Evil exists.
3. Therefore an all good and all powerful God does not exist.

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I don't think atheists realize that they are in their own little circular reasoning and self confirming bias trap. They try to make logical appeals like this one, but here is a thought experiment... What if the world is just like this one, but with one big exception there was no evil and pain and suffering. What do you think would happen? Personally I believe such people would likewise deny the existence of God, based on the reasoning of "What do I need God for?"

Pavel Mosko said:

I don't think atheists realize that they are in their own little circular reasoning and self confirming bias trap. They try to make logical appeals like this one, but here is a thought experiment... What if the world is just like this one, but with one big exception there was no evil and pain and suffering. What do you think would happen? Personally I believe such people would likewise deny the existence of God, based on the reasoning of "What do I need God for?"

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I think this could be reframed. Think about the world you are asking us to imagine, one without evil. Would any theist count such a scenario, if it were actual, as evidence against the existence of God?

Archaeopteryx said:

I think this could be reframed. Think about the world you are asking to imagine, one without evil. Would any theist count such a scenario, if it were actual, as evidence against the existence of God?

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Lets reframe again. How about this world just the way it is and imagine there is no God... poof the problem of evil disappears.

cvanwey said:

Furthermore, it seems you are saying many might need to experience some form of suffering, to then call upon a 'saving force'?

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Oh there is something of that, but it also is about human nature as well.

Humans in our fallen nature tend to only miss things that they don't have. In the case, of a perfect world, free of pain, suffering etc. I submit for most their wouldn't be a need for a God, for because they would most likely be happy and content on their own. Because in that world, not only would their material needs be met, but the more Existential ones also. In that world, the only one who would make an inquiry is some kind of scientist who is looking for "The First Cause".

cvanwey said:

Where then does Heaven fall upon this presumed set of conclusions?

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The above was a thought experiment and not me making some type of statement on current theology or epistemology.

cvanwey said:

This thread is in response to the "Logical Problem of Evil" thread recently created. An argument was presented, in which I have never heard before now. The 'theist' states 'atheists' make such an argument. I'm going to 'assume' the atheist is ultimately making the argument that such an asserted 'creating being' would not create the devil? (i.e.):

1. An all good and all powerful God would not allow evil to exist unless he had some morally sufficient reason.
2. Evil exists.
3. Therefore an all good and all powerful God does not exist.

Please note... I'm not sure where I set with this 'argument' yet????

Before I conclude in my position, I think it would be 'wise' to first define or 'solidify' some terms before-hand. Not from the 'atheist' perspective, but from the 'theist's', as theists tend to be the ones whom initiate/assert the 'existence' of 'truth' and/or 'absolute morality'.

Attention all theists, please define the following terms:

good-
evil-
moral-
intention-

Then please address these follow up questions:

1. What was God's intention when creating the devil? My take... There exists a dichotomy of sorts.... Neither of which appears 'logical'. Meaning, God already knew Lucifer would later rebel, and is merely 'watching re-runs', so-to-speak? Or, God was unaware of Lucifer's later decision/choice to rebel?

2. What was God's ultimate intention in creating humans, if God might have already known the ultimate outcome in it's entirety; that a deceiving force would later enter the picture?

3. If there exists no further sin in heaven, then why can't all humans reside in heaven postmortem? All humans were 'sinners', believers and non-believers. Apparently, the only major distinguishable difference between a human in heaven, and a human apart from heaven was repenting to Jesus (prior) to natural death. Why is it NOT permissible to allow humans to repent after natural death?

That's plenty to get us started. And again, this is an exploratory topic for me....

Click to expand...

For those definitions consider the essential basis, essence, of all law from God as given by Christ:

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
Matthew 7 ESV

"Good" is to do for others as you would want them to do for you (if you were in their situation)

"Evil" is to intentionally/knowingly do to others anything you would not want them to do to you.

Example of Good: freeing a slave, by any means possible that doesn't break the rule of what is Good.

Example of Evil: owning a slave (not an employee or only a servant, but an involuntary slave), against their will.

Christians believe in Christ, and aim to obey Him, and that's why those who actually believe (not those who don't actually believe; in other words, only the authentic believers) strive to obey Christ and do Good, including ending slavery.

As history shows Christians worked hard to do, as main workers in the abolitionist movements, including especially by changing minds also with powerful sermons (a multiplier effect where one Christian pastor could teach many tens of thousands that it was needed to not only regulate slavery, but to entirely end it, in keeping with Christ's commands to us.)

The other 2 words are simply familiar english words Americans (and many others) commonly use, so just using the norms:
"Moral" : 'holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.'
"Intention": 'a thing intended; an aim or plan.'

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Before continuing, I should pause in case you have any questions on the above.

Again, nice to meet you!