Evening (Sunset) and Morning (Sunrise) = 1 Day

mmksparbud said:

Are you really saying that anyone who lives their day from midnight to midnight is spiritually lost????
Where in the bible does it say that salvation is based on how you measure the day?.

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Please do not confuse knowing the truth with salvation. The Bible is very clear that our faith justifies our works, not the other way around. Works give substance to our faith.
Yes to live our day any other way than from morning to evening: means we are spiritually lost. The reason why is because this is a conscious action. It is not enough for our bodies to simply pass through the phases of day and night, and think that God has no standards concerning them. If this were not the case then God would not command specific observances for the temple services.

mmksparbud said:

You are free to do whatever you want. I chose to go by what God set up---which is sunset to sunset.

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Sister I understand how you feel. I went through the same feelings after having observed the Sabbath from sunset to sunset, then sunrise to sunrise, and now sunrise to sunset. But please, bear patiently and consider the evidence. Please don't take this personal sister.

For all who wonder why time and place matter so much to God consider Daniel 7:25 where the fourth beast shall seek to change the times and the law. The Enemy knows that to observe the law correctly timing is key: therefore he has worked tirelessly to keep a majority of mankind in the darkness concerning time.

mmksparbud said:

Well, right now, you are the one that is trying to change times. I will still stick with what God said. Jesus kept sunset to sunset and so did the apostles---they outrank you! I shall unfollow this thread.

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Well hold on sister...Christ is truth there is no arguing that: the question we are asking here is does my perspective align with the truth?

mmksparbud said:

Not that I can see.
And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God counts one day from the evening---you are free to start it whenever you want.

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Well I wasn't asking about "my" perspective personally speaking in the singular sense, I was asking that question with "my" being plural. Anyways this thread is not about where I choose to personally start my day: it is examining where and when I start my day and seeing if that aligns with scripture. And what better place to start than the beginning? In my opening on the first page you will see that I am specifically focused on Genesis 1:1-5. If we work backwards from v. 5 it will become clear when the day begins and ends:

"[...]And the evening and the morning were the first day."
The morning here is the beginning of the second day. The evening is the end of the first day. This also signifies that 1 Day = Morning and Evening. Therefore the beginning of the day is the morning while the end of the day is the evening.

"And God called the light Day and the Darkness He called Night.[...]"
God names the periods of light and darkness accordingly so we know what time it is when we see these signs. When we see the light it is Day, when we see the darkness it is Night...simple.

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."
God calls the light good and shows through His dividing it from the darkness that they are two different periods of time and, that they are not to be mixed. After God separated the two from one another morning began with the appearance of light.

"And God said, 'Let there be light': and there was light."
God called out the light: and it appeared. And since the darkness was there when He called the light they were mixed which created twilight: a period where there it is neither light nor dark. Here God used His Spirit to help banish the darkness with the light.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
After God created the earth it had no shape at first and was empty of life; and the darkness was covering the waters which blocked out both from being seen. So God sent His Spirit to work.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
"In the beginning[...]" = Time (creation)
"[...]God created[...]" = Creator
"[...]the heavens[...]" = Space (creation)
"[...]and the earth[...] = Matter (creation)
God created time, space, and matter. Therefore the creation of time signified the beginning of time and the beginning of the first day of the week. God also subjected these three creations to be finite (i.e. have a beginning, middle, and an end).

mmksparbud said:

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

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Yes sister and applying the same logic here we see that the evening here is the end of the second day while the morning is the beginning of the third day.

mmksparbud said:

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

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YHWH_will_uplift said:

Yes sister and applying the same logic here we see that the evening here is the end of the second day while the morning is the beginning of the third day.

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And because you brought it up I will finish by including the whole week so it is clear for all to see:

"[...]And the evening and the morning were first day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the first day while the morning is the beginning of the second day.

"[...]And the evening and the morning were second day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the second day while the morning is the beginning of the third day.

"And the evening and the morning were third day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the third day while the morning is the beginning of the fourth day.

"And the evening and the morning were fourth day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the fourth day while the morning is the beginning of the fifth day.

"And the evening and the morning were fifth day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the fifth day while the morning is the beginning of the sixth day.

"[...]And the evening and the morning were sixth day."
Genesis 1:5

The evening here is the end of the sixth day while the morning is the beginning of the seventh day.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made. "
Genesis 2:1-3

On the seventh day it does not end with the usual phrase, "And the evening and the morning were the __rd/th day." but, we may infer that because the seventh day of the week is the end of the week (literally the weekend) that the same logic applies to it as it does to the previous six days of the week. Therefore the evening of the seventh day of the week is the end of the seventh day while the next morning signifies the beginning of the first day of the week.

mmksparbud said:

You logic is not the same as God's. I don't see why you see the morning as the start of the day when God says it's the evening. Jesus certainly didn't see any reason to change this and since He saw no need of change it---neither do I. I leave you to your own theories---good-bye.

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Whoa, whoa...hold on sister not so fast...I did not come to change anything nor anyone only God can do that with the hearts of men and women. Jesus also said that he did not come to change anything either: He came to set the record straight. And following the example of Christ and taking His instructions I came to set the record straight with what He has shown me and, moved me to share with fellow brothers and sisters in His body.

mmksparbud said:

You logic is not the same as God's. I don't see why you see the morning as the start of the day when God says it's the evening. Jesus certainly didn't see any reason to change this and since He saw no need of change it---neither do I. I leave you to your own theories---good-bye.

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While it might not seem like such a big deal I feel that many of us have been so indoctrinated by the way the world defines a day that we neglect that God already defines a day for us and shows where to find the answer in His Word and when the day begins and ends. Consider the following diagram:

Morning to Evening; Sunrise to Sunset = 12 Hours = 1 Day

Day 01|Night 01|Day 02|Night 02|
M__E[T]_____[T]M__E[T]M___E[T]

The above gives us 24 hours between day (12 Hours Light) and night (12 Hours Darkness) for each day and night. This is a grand total of 2 Days and 2 Nights. Here the day and the night are separated perfectly as God planned.

Evening to Evening; Sunset to Sunset = 24 Hours = 1 Day

Day 01.........................|Day 02.........................|
E__[T]__N__[T]__M__E__[T]__N__[T]__M__E

Here we have a complete nightmare! We have the same number of hours but, day and night are mixed which goes against God's command to separate the light from the darkness.

Morning to morning; Sunrise to Sunrise = 24 Hours = 1 Day

Day 01.......................|Day 02.......................|
M__E[T]___N____[T]M__E__E[T]__N____[T]

The nightmare continues here just as it began with the evening to evening example.

Unfortunately our midnight to midnight timekeeping system does not aid in freeing us from the hellish nightmare of the evening to evening or morning to morning examples: only the morning to evening example aligns with scripture and clearly defines and separates the day from the night. The other systems mix light and darkness so that one cannot tell the day from the night.

Legend Key:
[T] = Twilight
M = Morning
E = Evening
N = Night

gadar perets said:

If we are spiritually lost, then Yeshua's sacrifice for our sins was in vain. His blood covers sins of ignorance, which is what the majority of people not keeping morning to evening days would be committing. If they died today, you are saying their sins of ignorance would cause them to lose their spiritual salvation. That is a very serious accusation and judgment on your part. If true, then hopefully, for your sake, you are not committing any sins of ignorance. All your beliefs must be perfect and true or you will be lost as well. Also, what you are saying is that you were spiritually lost until the day you accepted the morning and evening day rather than being saved the moment you received Yeshua as your Savior.

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Slow down there brother....the Torah also states that if one commits a sin unknowingly they are still guilty of it (Leviticus 5:17-18). This example may also be seen in the Torah as it deals with accidental murder: the individual who did not hate not intend to kill their neighbor was not excused of guilt but, was given the opportunity to flee to one of the six cities of refuge and live there until the high priest died: thereby fulfilling the command that that taking of life may only be stoned by taking life. The high priests life acted as a substitute for the life of the murderer and that is why the avenger of blood was not allowed to kill the murderer.

That being said the laws of God hold us to very strict and high standards which move us to closely examine our lives in order to know that the Image and Likeness of God which we bear is free from sin. And please keep in mind that this is not a prerequisite to salvation nor does it negate the sacrifice of Christ. Yeshua's perfect sacrifice does not mean we can be lazy children of God and not examine our lives and keep ourselves free from sin: that is the wrong attitude to have.

And yes I have openly admitted that I was spiritually lost before sharing these truths with the other members of Christ's body. That being said I will not hold onto falsehood once I have been proven to be false just so, I can remain 'sin free' in my own mind. I tried that before and that was a horrible way to live.

gadar perets said:

If BTE = Twilight, then it occurs AFTER the day ends. Is that correct? If so, please consider Numbers 28:4;

The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even ; KJV

The one lamb thou preparest in the morning, and the second lamb thou preparest between the evenings; YLT
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This verse deals with the time of the evening sacrifice. It had to be offered the same day as the morning sacrifice (Numbers 28:3).

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First, the historical testimony of Josephus places the evening sacrifice at "about the ninth hour" or approximately 3:00 p.m. (Antiquities 14.4.3). This agrees with his statement that the Passover lamb was sacrificed "between the ninth and the eleventh hour" (Wars 6.9.3). Two different sacrifices, both occurring at about the ninth hour and both fulfilling the command to sacrifice "between the evenings."

Secondly, we have the clear meaning of two other Hebrew words to assure us of the meaning intended. The word "one" used in verse 4 is the Hebrew word "echad" which can also mean "first" as in Numbers 29:1 and many other texts.

Numbers 29:1a - "And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation;"
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More importantly is the Hebrew word translated "other" in verse 8. It is "sheniy" meaning "double ie: second," according to Strong's Concordance. "Sheniy" is the most common Hebrew word for "second." If the "other" lamb, or more correctly, the "second" lamb, were sacrificed after sunset (during twilight) it would not have been sacrificed on the same day as the first lamb. Both lambs had to be sacrificed the same day, the first one in the morning and the second one between the evenings or late in the day, but before sunset.

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You're the neglecting the different senses of the phrase "between the evenings". While the example with Josephus shows that the evening may be broken up into three parts and thereby fulfilling the command to sacrifice between those two parts of evening: it is not referring to twilight in the sense I shared.

Twilight in nature occurs between the two evenings below:

Evening > Sunset [Twilight] Post Sunset > Nightfall

Therefore during this period it is neither light nor dark. And we see that in some of the cases in which twilight was used as a translation for the Hebrew HaEReBIM, literally "the evenings" the translators were expressing twilight in the sense of two lights as in the example of Josephus: not the time where it is neither light nor dark.

gadar perets said:

You did not address my main point. If twilight is when the evening sacrifice is to occur, then it is NOT within the same day as the morning sacrifice. It must be made prior to sunset which means "between the evenings" must be prior to sunset. The first lamb AND the second lamb must be offered the same day.

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Brother please re-read my reply carefully I clearly said that twilight was used by the translators to be in agreement with the example you gave for Josephus. I never said twilight had only one sense in which it may be used: you're assuming that twilight only has one sense and then you look up every scripture with twilight or the phrase "between the evenings" and say I'm wrong because you failed to see that words have more than one sense.