How would the position of no end of the world be classified?

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

As far as I know, it's only futurists/dispensationalists that believe the world will end - so maybe the best classification would be NOT futurist/despensationalist.

david shelby said:
Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

There is another option.

The verses that have phrases like "last days"....."end of age".....are best explained in the context of the end of the Old Temple system - so, in that sense, they can be taken to be literally "the time of the end" (the end of the Temple - Mosaic covenant....not the end of the earth) as LLoJ laid out in his post.

FireDragon76 · Mar 26, 2019

mkgal1 said:
As far as I know, it's only futurists/dispensationalists that believe the world will end - so maybe the best classification would be NOT futurist/despensationalist.

There is another option.

The verses that have phrases like "last days"....."end of age".....are best explained in the context of the end of the Old Temple system - so, in that sense, they can be taken to be literally "the time of the end" (the end of the Temple - Mosaic covenant....not the end of the earth).

I think its more than futurists that believe in "the last things". By the end of the world, we do not mean that existence ceases, anyways.

It's hard to say exactly what that world would be like, the Bible only speaks in parables and metaphors about it.

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I think its more than futurists that believe in "the last things". By the end of the world, we do not mean that existence ceases, anyways.

It's hard to say exactly what that world would be like, the Bible only speaks in parables and metaphors about it.

I took the OP to be referring to the end of the world/earth to mean as in ceasing to exist (and I thought that's limited to futurists).

There are too many other opposing belief systems related to "the last things" that aren't in agreement with one another - and that's why I posted that it's probably easier to just classify the belief as "NOT futurist/dispensationalist".

☦Marius☦ · Mar 26, 2019

Considering Revelation was the last book to be canonized and the early father's were cautious with it, I take it with a grain of salt.

I do think the end times are thousands of years away. After all it will be like the days of Noah. We are nowhere close to those times.

usexpat97 · Mar 26, 2019

Idealist is exactly how I would classify it.

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

Duplicate post

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Idealist is exactly how I would classify it.

From what I understand, an idealist spiritualizes or allegorizes most of Scripture. Instead of literal meaning - everything is meant to be about the basic struggle of good and evil (so I don't believe that label fits all that are in the other "camps" of not believing in a literal end/destruction of the earth).

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
Considering Revelation was the last book to be canonized and the early father's were cautious with it, I take it with a grain of salt.

The "last days" aren't only written about in Revelation. Much of the Gospels (records of Jesus own words, even) were about the "last days" or the "times of the end". Really, you could even say that a lot of the Bible (first and second testament) is about "the last days".

From Christian Courier----->Several centuries before the birth of Christ, the prophet Joel foretold that the Spirit of God would be “poured forth” in the “last days” (2:28-29; cf. Isaiah 2:2-4). There is no question about when this prophecy commenced its fulfillment. Peter, on the day of Pentecost, quoted the text and announced, “[T]his is that which has been spoken through the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16). He was, of course, referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles on that occasion. ~ A Study of Last Things

_Dave_ · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

I guess it depends on what you consider to be "the end of the world."

If you are thinking that the heavens and the earth will end some day and return to the nothingness, except for God, that existed prior to Gen. 1:1, then there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that will happen.

If you are thinking that the end of the world is the end of the existing heavens and earth, then yes, there is plenty in the Bible to suggest there will be a new heavens and a new earth to replace the one we currently live on.

So, technically those passages quoted in your OP are true, according to Scripture.

How to classify? Someone who believes the end of the world refers to our present world and knows there will be a new heaven and earth is simply someone who understands Scripture.

Someone who thinks it will all end and return to nothingness simply needs to be more diligent in their reading of Scripture.

Foxfyre · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

Because 'the world' is generally thought of as God's creation with all the trees and plants and creatures, including humans, on it, an 'end of the world' scenario would be a dead planet similar to the moon. So I would classify a concept of 'no end of the world' as unscientific. However. . .

Most scientist agree that our Sun is too small to actually go Nova, but eventually the nitrogen fuel that feeds the sun's heat and will be converted to helium that will be so hot it will expand and consume Mercury and probably Venus. They speculate it won't consume the Earth but will penetrate its orbit boiling away its oceans and atmosphere leaving it a barren rock in space but push it out into a much wider orbit. Then as the sun cools, it will shrink into a dead white dwarf and our solar system will be done. But the Earth will continue but as a dead rock devoid of any form of life or material capable of producing life.

I wouldn't worry about it much though as this won't happen for 4 or 5 billion or more years.

Bruce Leiter · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

You might investigate other passages like Rev. 21:1, in which John has a brief glimpse of a new heaven and new earth. The following verses give a symbolic picture of a new Jerusalem coming out of heaven down toward the new earth. The Greek word for "new" is kainos, which means "new and improved," not brand-new, which is neos, the word for a baby or child.

Thus, the earth will not be totally destroyed to leave only heaven, but as Jesus said in Matt. 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." He expands on Psalm 37:11, "But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace." David was talking about the land of promise, Israel; but Jesus enlarged David's vision to the whole earth, which God will perfect when Jesus returns.

As a result, all the often symbolic prophets' visions of a new, perfect earth will be fulfilled.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 26, 2019

Foxfyre said:
Because 'the world' is generally thought of as God's creation with all the trees and plants and creatures, including humans, on it, an 'end of the world' scenario would be a dead planet similar to the moon. So I would classify a concept of 'no end of the world' as unscientific. However. . .
Most scientist agree that our Sun is too small to actually go Nova, but eventually the nitrogen fuel that feeds the sun's heat and will be converted to helium that will be so hot it will expand and consume Mercury and probably Venus. They speculate it won't consume the Earth but will penetrate its orbit boiling away its oceans and atmosphere leaving it a barren rock in space but push it out into a much wider orbit. Then as the sun cools, it will shrink into a dead white dwarf and our solar system will be done. But the Earth will continue but as a dead rock devoid of any form of life or material capable of producing life.
I wouldn't worry about it much though as this won't happen for 4 or 5 billion or more years.

Foxfyre said:
......So I would classify a concept of 'no end of the world' as unscientific. However. . .Most scientist agree that our Sun is too small to actually go Nova, I wouldn't worry about it much though as this won't happen for 4 or 5 billion or more years.

Well that's a relief.

But according to Revelation 18, this event only occurs upon the people residing in the Great City Jerusalem, not the whole planet.

7 And I hear of the Altar saying "yea Lord the God the Almighty, true and just the judgings of Thee.
8 And the fourth Messenger pours out His Bowl upon the sun, and was given Him to scorch<2739> the men in fire<1442>.
9 And the men are scorched great heat<2738>
and they blaspheme the Name of the God the One having the authority upon these blows<4127> and not the repent/reform to give glory to Him. [Ezekiel 22:1-22]

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows<4127>, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire<4442> She shall be utterly burned down<2618>, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
[Ezekiel 22]
===========================================
I believe the City is symbolizing either 1st century or future Jerusalem.
This on Jerusalem.

Isaiah 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear,
And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,” Says the LORD,
Whose fire is in ZionAnd whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 22
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
[Revelation 18:8]

PaulCyp1 · Mar 26, 2019

irrational. No natural thing is eternal. Eventually our sun is going to burn out, as hundreds of thousands of other suns have done, and the planets that are kept in orbit by the sun's gravity will wander off into space. However, life on Earth will cease long before that happens, as the temperature of the Earth will fall to far below what the poles of the Earth now experience.

_Dave_ · Mar 26, 2019

FoxFyre and Paul, fortunately it won't come to that. The Creator of the universe and everything in it has laid out his plan for the earth and its residents, and not even the most outside estimate for the rapture and Christ's second coming put them at 4 or 5 billion years.

In Revelation, God tells us he's going to replace the sun and stars with His own light, as it was in the beginning, so there won't be any need for the sun and moon, and they'll be gone by then anyway.

Foxfyre · Mar 26, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Well that's a relief.

But according to Revelation 18, this event only occurs upon the people residing in the Great City Jerusalem, not the whole planet.

7 And I hear of the Altar saying "yea Lord the God the Almighty, true and just the judgings of Thee.
8 And the fourth Messenger pours out His Bowl upon the sun, and was given Him to scorch<2739> the men in fire<1442>.
9 And the men are scorched great heat<2738>
and they blaspheme the Name of the God the One having the authority upon these blows<4127> and not the repent/reform to give glory to Him. [Ezekiel 22:1-22]

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows<4127>, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire<4442> She shall be utterly burned down<2618>, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
[Ezekiel 22]
===========================================
I believe the City is symbolizing either 1st century or future Jerusalem.
This on Jerusalem.

Isaiah 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear,
And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,” Says the LORD,
Whose fire is in ZionAnd whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 22
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
[Revelation 18:8]

Well, I don't care if you take the verse literally, and I'm pretty sure God doesn't care either. But practically speaking, I just can't buy that Jerusalem is the only place affected. However if we go with the "New Jerusalem" metaphor, we could all be in Heaven which I can believe life on Earth could all be extinct in another 5 billion years or so.

mkgal1 · Mar 26, 2019

Quoting linked article: Jesus plainly said, “Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law” (Matthew 5:18). Surely that would mean all 613 commandments in the Pentateuch must be followed until some cataclysmic events take place.

If “heaven and earth” haven't passed away, we have a backlog of Jubilee years to celebrate, “cities of refuge” to resurrect, and bleeding lambs to burn on an altar. Forget Sunday. We got to go back to the Sabbath rest on Saturday. Throw out your clothes that mix linen and cotton and kill your rebellious children. The Law of Moses has some serious instructions.

So why don't Christians obey every letter of the Law if Jesus said it all applies “until heaven and earth pass away”?

Where Heaven and Earth Was for First-Century Jews

Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

To reflect this belief, the Jerusalem Temple had been built to look like a microcosm of the universe. We typically overlook how literally true the Temple hymn preserved in Psalm 78:69 is: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever." The actual holy place and most holy place inside the Temple building were constructed like earth and heaven. The courts outside represented the sea. I am not making this stuff up.

According to Josephus, two parts of the tabernacle were "approachable and open to all“ but one was not. He explains that in so doing Moses "signifies the earth and the sea, since these two are accessible to all; but the third portion he reserved for God alone because heaven is inaccessible to men" (Ant. 3:181, cf. 3:123). The veil between’ the accessible and inaccessible parts of the Temple was designed to represent the entire material world during Jesus’ day. Josephus and Philo agree that the veil was composed of four materials representing the four elements—earth, water, air, and fire (War 5:212-213; Ant. 3:138-144; Quaestiones in Exodum 2:85, cf. Mos 2:88). Heaven was beyond this material world. It was behind the curtain.

Outside the Temple’s microcosm of “heaven and earth,” the courts looked like the sea. Numbers Rabbah13:19 records, "The court surrounds the temple just as the sea surrounds the world." In Talmudic tradition, Rabbis described how the inner walls of the Temple looked like waves of the sea (b. Sukk. 51b, b.B.Bat. 4a). From heaven and earth inside the temple, you looked out at the sea surrounding the world. Why? Ancients believed the earth had one giant land mass surrounded by sea. The temple reflected that cosmology. The accessible section of the Temple and the surrounding courts embodied both the land mass and sea believed to comprise the earth. The Most Holy Place was heaven where God's presence resided.
~ When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

GingerBeer · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Atheism?

Except that Atheists think that the world will end in a few billion years.

david shelby · Mar 26, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Atheism?

Except that Atheists think that the world will end in a few billion years.

Definitely not atheism. These passages are basically stating that the earth will last forever because that God who created it is so powerful. In fact, thinking along that line, there is another passage in Ecclesiastes 3:14 that explains it essentially that way, i.e. "I know that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; God has done this, so that all should stand in awe before him." That's clearly the thinking behind the statement he makes in Ecclesiastes 1:4 about the earth remaining forever.

Now what I find funny is that atheists do believe the world will end, based on something they will call "science" but it doesn't seem very "scientific" to me. Like, some scientists will say that the sun will burn out in several billion years because it will run out of energy, or others that it will explode in several billion years because it will get unstable. How can they determine any of this? They've never been inside the sun to understand how it is fueled. There is no reasonably sufficient observation of the sun to make such predictions.

david shelby · Mar 26, 2019

PaulCyp1 said:
irrational. No natural thing is eternal. Eventually our sun is going to burn out, as hundreds of thousands of other suns have done, and the planets that are kept in orbit by the sun's gravity will wander off into space. However, life on Earth will cease long before that happens, as the temperature of the Earth will fall to far below what the poles of the Earth now experience.

Ok, because I just was talking about this a moment ago in my immediately above post before I saw this reply, and was wondering where atheistic scientists get this idea. Thanks for explaining it. So its based on the assumption (totally false and unprovable assumption to me) that our sun is no different from far away stars. Sorry, but they don't have close enough observations of the sun and those stars to prove that. Its not like me being able to hold two oranges, one in the left and one in the right hand, and determine they're from the same species of citris tree. They're being arrogant and assuming they know way more than they do.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Mar 27, 2019

david shelby said:
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

Forever in hebrew can mean for a period of time, or long time, as well as eternity. Those verse speak to the earth lasting a long time.
Olam 5769
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,

Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.

alam 5957
forever lasting, old

(Aramaic) corresponding to owlam; remote time, i.e. The future or past indefinitely; often adverb, forever -- for ((n-))ever (lasting), old.

5703 ad
eternity, everlasting, old, perpetually, world without end

From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition) -- eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

From reading the rest of Scripture we can see that the earth will be destroyed and thus the Lord's meaning in those passages was that it would last a long time.
Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17,26:21,2:9; Zephaniah 1:18,2:22,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9,2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9

How would the position of no end of the world be classified?

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