Does God Get What God Wants?

Ttalkkugjil

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God's the kings' King and the lords' Lord. God has immortality. God lives in light. To God be honor.

God's in possession of heavenly bliss, and God's almighty, Sovereign, Lord, the king's King and the lords' Lord.

All that dwell on earth sink into insignificance beside God. God alone has immortality. God's the one in whom this attribute is God's essence. God's life's Source. God lives in glory's light, which is inaccessible to sinners.

Glory's reflection is unbearable to us. Much less will we be able to look into God's glory itself. No one's eyes have seen nor will see God's glory, not on this side. Glory should be given to God.

Our praise of his essence will continue throughout eternity, long after we've changed our old body into heavenly majesty's body.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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How great is God? Great enough to achieve what God sets out to do or kind of great, medium great, sort of great, great most of the time? Will all people be saved? or will God not get what God wants. This is the only question arminians need to ask. Mic drop.
God's will will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, whether it is done by many or by few. Everyone who accepts the salvation God has provided will be saved.
 
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BBAS 64

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Umm yes he does:

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning

and from ancient times things not yet done,

saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
 
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sdowney717

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Acts 15, says this as well.

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

So this decision was God's to make, not everyone believed the message did they. Those who believed God had determined to save them.

verse 17, the rest of mankind of course referring to the gentiles, not the Jews.
Of those gentiles those that will seek the LORD Jesus and find Him are those whom HE CALLS.
And this calling is the work of the Lord alone and nothing to do with man.

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’


The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works
 
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TheSeabass

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How great is God? Great enough to achieve what God sets out to do or kind of great, medium great, sort of great, great most of the time? Will all people be saved? or will God not get what God wants. This is the only question arminians need to ask. Mic drop.

God has a decretive will where, for example, He decreed the world into existence and no man could stop this decretive will of God. God decreed that salvation would be through His Son Jesus Christ, no man could stop that decree of God either.

God has a permissive will where He allows man to use his free will and God permits man to do as man chooses. God does not make one obey or disobey Him but permits-allows one to obey or disobey Him.

God has a preceptive will in what God desires/wishes man would do. God has given man a plan of salvation through Christ, it is God's preceptive will, His wish/desire that all men choose to follow that plan, 2 Peter 3:9. When it comes to God's preceptive will, man does not always do what God's preceptive wished/desired man would do.

Therefore God's Sovereignty is about control through using His foreknowledge along with decretive, permissive, preceptive will and not causation as Calvinism claims.
 
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bling

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How great is God? Great enough to achieve what God sets out to do or kind of great, medium great, sort of great, great most of the time? Will all people be saved? or will God not get what God wants. This is the only question arminians need to ask. Mic drop.
Here is an article I copied from somewhere author is at the bottom:
God desires/will



God desires all people to have a relationship with Him—not just some. Peter writes, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9). Paul writes, “[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). Jesus said that he would “draw all men to [Himself]” (Jn. 12:32), and the Holy Spirit would “convict the world”—not just the elect (Jn. 16:8). In the OT, God makes it clear that he doesn’t desire people to be judged (Ezek. 18:23; Jer. 48:31; Isa. 28:21).



There are two different words used for God’s will in the NT: boulē and thelō. Humans are said to thwart both of these.



1. Boulē (pronounced boo-LAY)

Luke writes, “The Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose (Greek boulē) for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John” (Lk. 7:30; c.f. Acts 7:51). This is the same word used for God’s will in Ephesians 1:11 (“predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (Greek boulē)”. Here, Luke explains that the Pharisees were capable of thwarting God’s will for them. Likewise, in 2 Peter 3:9, a derivative of boulē is used (boulomai), when Peter writes of God not “wishing for any to perish.” Since some ultimately do go to hell, this must mean that God’s will (boulē) is not fulfilled.



2. Thelō (pronounced THELL-oh)

Jesus said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted (thelō) to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling (thelō)” (Mt. 23:37). Here, Jesus (God) wanted to do something, but this was thwarted by the religious leaders. Earlier in the same chapter, Jesus said, “[The King] sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling (thelō) to come” (Mt. 22:3).



Elsewhere, Jesus prayed that God’s “will” would be done on Earth, as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). This word (thelēma; pronounced THAY-leem-uh) is in the same word group as thelō. If God’s will could not be resisted, there would be no reason to pray for this. Moreover, Jesus claimed that we are permitted to line up our will with God’s (or choose not to). He said, “If anyone is willing (Greek thelō) to do His will (Greek thelō), he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself” (Jn. 7:17). These passages all imply that we are permitted to resist the will of God.



The Bible has a number of broad, sweeping teachings that support the traditional definition of freewill. Let’s consider a few of these examples.



1. God calls on people to obey, choose, and believe in him (Jn. 15:10; Josh. 24:15; Jn. 3:18). These calls would be nonsense, if we are not free moral agents.



2. The very fact that we can sin implies freedom of the will, unless we are claiming that God is the agent of sin.



3. God judges us (1 Cor. 3:10-15; Rev. 20:11-15). Humans are rewarded and punished according to their actions. Judgment only makes sense, if we are free to choose and culpable for our choices.



4. God tests his people, which implies our ability to pass or fail (Gen. 22:1; Jas. 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 10:13).



5. Prayers are not scripted; they are free expressions of the heart (see the Psalms for good examples of this).



6. God pleads with sinners to repent, which would only make sense in light of free moral decision (Ezek. 18:23-32; 33:11).



7. God desires all men to believe in him (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 12:32). Consider this. An omnipotent being “desires” something that clearly is not happening. Something must be stopping God from doing what he wants to do. Freewill is the most likely solution to this problem (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51; Mt. 23:3, 37; Mt. 6:10; Jn. 7:17).



8. God himself is a free moral agent, who is not determined (Rev. 4:11). Therefore, even the determinist will admit that it is not necessary for all decision to be determined. Jesus was not determined; instead, he submitted his will to the Father’s will (Lk. 22:42).



Moreover, all of us have an immediate experience of freewill. Imagine how good the arguments would have to be against freewill, in order for you to believe that you were determined in your actions. The burden of proof on the Calvinist is enormous, because it flies contrary to our immediate experience.



Moreover, if freewill doesn’t exist, then we could never know if our knowledge of anything is true. Reason implies that a personal agent can determine between truth and falsehood. But if determinism is true, then we could never know that we have arrived at the truth, because we would have been determined to do so. All we could ever say is that we believe it is true (i.e. this is our current psychological state)—not that we know it is true (i.e. we have used reason to come to this conclusion).



Furthermore, if freewill doesn’t exist, then we should never try to argue someone into determinism. This is both because we do not know whether our view is right (because we would be determined to hold it), and the other person wouldn’t be capable of changing their view (because they would be determined to hold their position).



In the OT, God enables the freewill of the people to choose for him (Josh. 24:15; Isa. 50:2; Jer. 1:6; 2:13-14; 7:13; 13:10; 26:2-3; Ex. 3:11; 4:1-13; Hos. 11:1-9; Ps. 78:10; 81:11-13; Jer. 32:33). For instance, Isaiah writes, “I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight” (Isa. 65:12). Solomon writes, “I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention” (Prov. 1:24). Jeremiah writes, “And if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned” (Jer. 18:8).



One final passage should be considered in this regard: Matthew 19:24. Jesus says, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” What exactly could this verse mean from a Calvinist perspective? Arminian scholar Roger Olson comments, “What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then Jesus’ saying makes no sense at all.”



- - - -



On Romans 8:



First, God’s predestination is based on his foreknowledge of who would freely choose him. The order of Romans 8:29 is essential to understanding it effectively. God chooses the one “whom he foreknew”—not the other way around. His election is based on those who he knew would freely choose Him.



Second, this is plural, rather than singular. Paul writes, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined… 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” This is not referring to an individual believer; it is referring to the entire church of believers. This passage is not about me; it is about we. Therefore, it would be mistaken to interpret this passage as referring to individual salvation.



Nikola Dimitrov / author, Life of Jesus: The Four in One Gospel
 
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TheSeabass

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2. Thelō (pronounced THELL-oh)

Jesus said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted (thelō) to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling (thelō)” (Mt. 23:37). Here, Jesus (God) wanted to do something, but this was thwarted by the religious leaders. Earlier in the same chapter, Jesus said, “[The King] sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling (thelō) to come” (Mt. 22:3).

Matthew 23:37:

If those Jews had been unconditionally predestined by God before the world began to be lost,
--then why "would" Jesus (God) want them to be saved, under His protective wing.

If those Jews had been unconditionally predestined by God before the world began to be saved,
--then why "would" they reject Christ and the salvation He offers?


Mark 10:17-21:

If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world began to be lost,
---then why did (God) Jesus offer this man salvation, treasure in heaven, come follow Me knowing this man had already been predetermined to be lost? Was God sadistically teasing this man with salvation with God already knowing/predetermining this man would not be saved?
---why did Jesus "love" this man and not "hate" him as Esau was 'hated' as Calvinists view Esau being hated in Romans 9?
---if this lost man was "totally depraved" ("T" in TULIP), then how was he able to keep God's commandments? Mark 10:20 Why would he have any concern or care about having eternal life? Mark 10:17
---Jesus said of this man "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!.....It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" As you pointed out, is it harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one?


If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world to be saved:
---then why did he reject and walk away from the salvation offered him by Christ?
--since this man was "loved" by God then why was he not saved as Jacob was "loved" and saved per Calvinist view of Romans 9?
---again, if he was unconditionally predetermined by God to be saved before the world began, why was there still something 'lacking' in his salvation, why was there something he needed 'to do' in order to be saved if God had already UNCONDITIONALLY procured and 'worked out' his salvation for him once and for all time before the world began? Mark 10:21


Clearly God has not unconditionally predetermined each man's eternal destiny for that man, but man has free will and can use that free will to go against what God wills, what God wishes/ desires for that man.
 
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bling

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Matthew 23:37:

If those Jews had been unconditionally predestined by God before the world began to be lost,
--then why "would" Jesus (God) want them to be saved, under His protective wing.

If those Jews had been unconditionally predestined by God before the world began to be saved,
--then why "would" they reject Christ and the salvation He offers?


Mark 10:17-21:

If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world began to be lost,
---then why did (God) Jesus offer this man salvation, treasure in heaven, come follow Me knowing this man had already been predetermined to be lost? Was God sadistically teasing this man with salvation with God already knowing/predetermining this man would not be saved?
---why did Jesus "love" this man and not "hate" him as Esau was 'hated' as Calvinists view Esau being hated in Romans 9?
---if this lost man was "totally depraved" ("T" in TULIP), then how was he able to keep God's commandments? Mark 10:20 Why would he have any concern or care about having eternal life? Mark 10:17
---Jesus said of this man "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!.....It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" As you pointed out, is it harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one?


If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world to be saved:
---then why did he reject and walk away from the salvation offered him by Christ?
--since this man was "loved" by God then why was he not saved as Jacob was "loved" and saved per Calvinist view of Romans 9?
---again, if he was unconditionally predetermined by God to be saved before the world began, why was there still something 'lacking' in his salvation, why was there something he needed 'to do' in order to be saved if God had already UNCONDITIONALLY procured and 'worked out' his salvation for him once and for all time before the world began? Mark 10:21


Clearly God has not unconditionally predetermined each man's eternal destiny for that man, but man has free will and can use that free will to go against what God wills, what God wishes/ desires for that man.
God desires man to have free will in-order for man to fulfill his earthly object and thus become like God himself (Loving) which is the greatest of all gifts, but included with tons of other wonderful stuff. Man is not making some noble, honorable, worthy, righteous choice to become a child of God, but just the choice to humbly accept God's charity for good selfish reasons (to get an underserved better life).
 
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fhansen

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How great is God? Great enough to achieve what God sets out to do or kind of great, medium great, sort of great, great most of the time? Will all people be saved? or will God not get what God wants. This is the only question arminians need to ask. Mic drop.
God wants...us to decide.
 
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bling

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The free will of fallen man when exercised leads him away from Christ. Refer to the natural man separated from God by sin and fulfilling the pleasures of his flesh since that is all he knows, of which are many bible stories of the lives of such people through the ages.
Let’s just say you are right for the most part. It is ungodly, unrighteous, unholy, un-Christ like, and sinful to be selfish. Yet, at those time you your bad actions bring you to your senses, you can look where you are headed, remember what you left (even if you have to go way back) and make a selfish choice. You can decide to be macho stay the course, be willing to pay the piper, accept the punishment you fully deserve and fight to the death, or you can wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy (God). You are not deciding to join God, Love God, run to his open arms or even accept God, but you are selfishly humbly willing to accept your hated enemy’s (God’s) pure undeserved charity. (similar to what the prodigal son did.)
 
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sdowney717

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Let’s just say you are right for the most part. It is ungodly, unrighteous, unholy, un-Christ like, and sinful to be selfish. Yet, at those time you your bad actions bring you to your senses, you can look where you are headed, remember what you left (even if you have to go way back) and make a selfish choice. You can decide to be macho stay the course, be willing to pay the piper, accept the punishment you fully deserve and fight to the death, or you can wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy (God). You are not deciding to join God, Love God, run to his open arms or even accept God, but you are selfishly humbly willing to accept your hated enemy’s (God’s) pure undeserved charity. (similar to what the prodigal son did.)

Daniel 12:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

None of the wicked will ever understand, neither will they ever repent. God has to give to them a new heart, or they will continue to act wickedly. Only the wise shall understand and believe for they have been given an understanding to know Him who is true.
I take that to be personal and individually done for us by God.
Otherwise you will remain of the wicked one and never understand the truth in Christ.

1 John 5:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
 
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bling

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Daniel 12:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

None of the wicked will ever understand, neither will they ever repent. God has to give to them a new heart, or they will continue to act wickedly. Only the wise shall understand and believe for they have been given an understanding to know Him who is true.
I take that to be personal and individually done for us by God.
Otherwise you will remain of the wicked one and never understand the truth in Christ.
You make a statement that is not in the verses: “none of the wicked will ever understand, neither will they ever repent” is not in Daniel 12:9-10. It just says the “none of the wicked shall understand”, but the wicked like the prodigal son can stop for a moment come to their senses and for selfish reasons turn (surrender).

When Jesus did come the wicked did not understand at the time yet the few righteous wise did understand, but later some of the wicked came to an understanding. We all start out wicked.
1 John 5:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
John is talking exclusively to Christians in his letter, so yes, they have understanding, they are in Christ, and have eternal life, and everyone else is wicked for now, but that does not mean they cannot change.
 
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sdowney717

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You make a statement that is not in the verses: “none of the wicked will ever understand, neither will they ever repent” is not in Daniel 12:9-10. It just says the “none of the wicked shall understand”, but the wicked like the prodigal son can stop for a moment come to their senses and for selfish reasons turn (surrender).

When Jesus did come the wicked did not understand at the time yet the few righteous wise did understand, but later some of the wicked came to an understanding. We all start out wicked.

John is talking exclusively to Christians in his letter, so yes, they have understanding, they are in Christ, and have eternal life, and everyone else is wicked for now, but that does not mean they cannot change.
Sorry but the wicked will never repent, because they will never understand, they have to be changed first, so they can recieve an understanding from God to know the truth in Christ and be saved. I am speaking about basic principles here.

Even extreme punishing judgement from God that people know is coming from Heaven against them does not enable repentance.

Revelation 16:8-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched
8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.
 
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bling

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Sorry but the wicked will never repent, because they will never understand, they have to be changed first, so they can recieve an understanding from God to know the truth in Christ and be saved. I am speaking about basic principles here.
I am not suggesting there is any “change” in the nature of the unbelieving sinner to allow the sinner to accept pure charity for selfish reasons.
 
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sdowney717

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I am not suggesting there is any “change” in the nature of the unbelieving sinner to allow the sinner to accept pure charity for selfish reasons.
Christ says it this way about being changed, you must be 'of God' to hear God and believe in Christ.
Christ explains why some believe and some do not.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

See, if you cant hear God, you most certainly wont be believing God and Christ about what they say.
You must first be 'of God' as in born again first to hear and then you can believe and be saved.

Apostle John also says we are of God, but the unbelievers are of the devil.
If your of God then you have been changed, given the new heart so as to be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ.
Unbelievers can never believe. A person has to become a new creature first where the old is gone and everything becomes new for them.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
 
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bling

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Christ says it this way about being changed, you must be 'of God' to hear God and believe in Christ.
Christ explains why some believe and some do not.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

See, if you cant hear God, you most certainly wont be believing God and Christ about what they say.
You must first be 'of God' as in born again first to hear and then you can believe and be saved.

Apostle John also says we are of God, but the unbelievers are of the devil.
If your of God then you have been changed, given the new heart so as to be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ.
Unbelievers can never believe. A person has to become a new creature first where the old is gone and everything becomes new for them.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
OK.
The issue is not "why some believe and some do not" which come later, but what some do that allows God to shower them with gifts including making them of God, while others refuse to humbly accept God's gifts.
 
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DennisTate

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How great is God? Great enough to achieve what God sets out to do or kind of great, medium great, sort of great, great most of the time? Will all people be saved? or will God not get what God wants. This is the only question arminians need to ask. Mic drop.


Is God limited to one fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 or.....
could each and every moment of history be replicated if God so chose to do so....... and could in that hypothetically recreated earth..... with all those resurrected people who do not even know that they have been resurrected...... could the Holy Spirit be poured out at a much greater level than it was poured out in what we know of as history.......... Could this be one of the ways that God gets closer and closer to saving more and more and more and more of us?

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.
 
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