Replacement Theology Refuted

BABerean2 · Mar 25, 2019

Bladerunner said:
The remnant of Israel is yet to be separated from the nation of Israel. This will be accomplished during Daniel's 70th week and specifically Jacob's troubles (last half of Daniel's 70th week.)

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, was the Gospel taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles?

Was this the 70th week of Daniel during the first century?

.

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

Bladerunner said:
Well you might say we all are cousins. very distant but cousins none the less.

I don't really trust these DNA markers in the fact that they have so little data and cannot really rely on the data they do have. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW!

Blade

I agree with your "You might say we are all cousins" statement.

And I agree that DNA markers can certainly be hard to interpret. I've had ancestry genetic testing done and the best they can say is "You have X percentage of markers that are consistent with people for Y geographical area." Yet if people from "Y geographical area" are not the native inhabitance (Like English DNA as opposed to Scottish or Irish DNA; who were the inhabitants of central Britain before the Angles and Saxons came.) The testing can be "historically misleading".

This is the issue they have with "Semitic Jewish" DNA. They can test a whole bunch of people in the Middle East and say: this group's DNA has enough markers in common that we can say they are related to that group. (Like the Arabs and the Edomites) We know both those people groups still exist and identifying markers they have in common to each other is not the "unknown". The "unknown" is the history of where these markers came from.

So say we have: (and granted this is way oversimplified)

Genetic marker A, B, & C
X, Y, Z
D, E, F
G, H, I

Arab people group = 90% have markers A, B, X, Y,
10% have A,X,G, E
Edomite people group = 60% have markers A, B, C, Z
20% A, C, Z, H
10% B, X, H, I
10% B, C, G, D
Jewish people group.= 3% have A, X, I, E
12% G, H, I, A
85% D, E, F, Y
European people group
90% D, E, F, B
10% G, H, B, E
African people group
95% G, H, I, Y
5% B, D, I, Z

Now assuming A, B are Semitic markers because all 3 groups have them. Compare the remainder of DNA 85% of Jews have. D, E, F. Most of that DNA is European. The next grouping of Jews most of their DNA is African. Only 3% of this group only have one marker in common with Arabs and Edomites; so how much "Semitic DNA" does that account for really?

Theologically speaking it really doesn't matter; but to those who try to say biological descended(ness) makes someone of more favor than someone else; and this is why I made the point about Jesus not having biological children. He is the only one where it would have made a difference theologically speaking if you were a descendent of Him! And this is precisely why He didn't produce children; but that's another subject altogether.

Practically speaking; it becomes a big political sticky wicket when you have a group of people claiming they have a "right from God" to a particular piece of earthly real estate based on DNA.

When who's to say because you have no way of proving what Semitic line that DNA came from. Your genetic markers are Arab or Edomite and not Jacobite; because there's no known Jacobite DNA to compare with. And to my knowledge - I don't think we've gotten good enough at extracting DNA out of grave bone samples.

Even if we have though, we'd need a known source of "We know this is a Benjamin, or Judean"; which means your looking for the remains of one of the apostles or Mary, Joseph or Jesus's other half siblings. And scientists who'd want to run that testing, would certainly not be popular with a lot of Christian church traditions. And this would be even if we could accurately identify that "We know this is Peter" or "That is Paul" or who ever. Which is another issue with history. It's not infrequent that whom is said to be in that grave is the one who's actually there!

So, complicated and sticky = YES! You got that one right!

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Was this the 70th week of Daniel during the first century?

I certainly believe there is plenty of Scriptural evidence to say that it was!

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 25, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Hosea was already fulfilled in 515bc when the Israelite remnant returned from Babylonian captivity. No need for it to be fulfilled again.

keras said:
Preterist rubbish.
Israel is prophesied to be as many as the sands of the sea. Do the Jews now, or ever been that numerous?
Obviously the Blessings promised to ALL of Israel, incl those grafted in, have not been fulfilled yet.

jgr said:
We've been over this innumerable times, keras.

You know, and have yourself demonstrated, better.

By what characteristics does God identify and distinguish Israel?

keras said:
We are in agreement that the Israel of God, consists of only faithful, born again Christians.
However, the majority of the peoples that have accepted Christianity are, in my opinion; actual descendants of Jacob.
You are right in asserting that every person alive today must have some of Abrahams genes, but God has kept watch; Amos 9:9, on the 12 tribes. He knows their whereabouts and in order for Him to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, plus for the 144,000 to be selected, they must be identifiable, separate from the rest of the world.

By the 'remnant of Israel', do you mean the Jewish people?
If so, prophecy tells us that they will be uprooted; Jeremiah 12:14, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14, +
That is their outcome, but for the faithful Christians, Jew and Gentile, God promises many blessings to them as they go to live in all of the Promised Land. That is our hope and our destiny.

Bladerunner said: ↑
The remnant of Israel is yet to be separated from the nation of Israel. This will be accomplished during Daniel's 70th week and specifically Jacob's troubles (last half of Daniel's 70th week.)

BABerean2 said:
Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, was the Gospel taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles?
Was this the 70th week of Daniel during the first century?
.

The Righterzpen said:
I certainly believe there is plenty of Scriptural evidence to say that it was!

I would include part of Daniel 12 also.

Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time.
And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, every of the one being found written in scroll.

Luke 21:23
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man.

Are Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21:23 same event?
Edit

*
Yes
7 vote(s)
53.8%
No
4 vote(s)
30.8%
Maybe
2 vote(s)
15.4%
Never thought about it
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I don't know but am willing to learn
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Other [please explain]
0 vote(s)
0.0%

claninja · Mar 25, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
One of these conclusions is that the church inherits “heaven” at Christ’s return.

Abraham lived in the promise land and recognized that he was a stranger and exile on earth.
Even when Abraham lived in the promise land, AS IN A FOREIGN LAND, he was seeking a homeland. If he had been thinking of the land of UR he could have had an opportunity to return, but he desired a better country, a heavenly one.

Hebrews 11:9, 13-16 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

David, while being king and living in the promise land, recognized that he was a stranger and sojourner, just as ALL HIS FATHERS were.

1 chronicles 29:15 For we are strangers before you and sojourners, as all our fathers were. Our days on the earth are like a shadow, and there is no abiding.

The Ezekiel temple is where God's throne is and where his feet rest. The Ezekiel temple is where God dwells with us forever, whether we are in heaven, his throne or on earth, his footstool.

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.

Paul states when our earthly home is destroyed we have a building from God IN the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Paul states our citizenship is IN heaven.
Phillipians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior

Jerryhuerta said:
Since the gentiles are heirs to Abraham’s covenant in Christ (Galatians 3:29) then they inherit the land and not heaven.

Jerryhuerta said:
Again, references to the contrary are based only on a superficial analysis.

The disciples didn't understand what the OT said about Jesus until Jesus opened their minds to understanding it. All they could understand was a superficial reading of scriptures.

Luke 24:44-45 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

The Spirit reveals the true spiritual intentions of OT scripture. Spiritual truths that we could not see, hear, or imagine by superficially reading the OT scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:9-10 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God

1 Corinthians 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Progressive revelation does not mean that the Spirit is revealing something new that wasn't in the OT before, progressive revelation is the understanding of the true spiritual intention of OT scripture that was always there.

A superficial reading leads one to believe that the same land of Israel that Abraham saw with his own eyes is the true promise land for Christians.

Genesis 3:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.

Even though God promised that no eye has seen what He has prepared for us.

A superficial reading cannot explain that Christ is the heir of the promise(s): PLURAL.

Galatians 3:16 the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

The earth is the Lord's and Christ is the Lord. thus the earth, which includes Israel, is Christ's, which fulfills the promise to Abraham, that the land would be to his offspring forever.

1 Corinthians 10:26 For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”

Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Bladerunner · Mar 25, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I agree with your "You might say we are all cousins" statement.

And I agree that DNA markers can certainly be hard to interpret. I've had ancestry genetic testing done and the best they can say is "You have X percentage of markers that are consistent with people for Y geographical area." Yet if people from "Y geographical area" are not the native inhabitance (Like English DNA as opposed to Scottish or Irish DNA; who were the inhabitants of central Britain before the Angles and Saxons came.) The testing can be "historically misleading".

This is the issue they have with "Semitic Jewish" DNA. They can test a whole bunch of people in the Middle East and say: this group's DNA has enough markers in common that we can say they are related to that group. (Like the Arabs and the Edomites) We know both those people groups still exist and identifying markers they have in common to each other is not the "unknown". The "unknown" is the history of where these markers came from.

So say we have: (and granted this is way oversimplified)

Genetic marker A, B, & C
X, Y, Z
D, E, F
G, H, I

Arab people group = 90% have markers A, B, X, Y,
10% have A,X,G, E
Edomite people group = 60% have markers A, B, C, Z
20% A, C, Z, H
10% B, X, H, I
10% B, C, G, D
Jewish people group.= 3% have A, X, I, E
12% G, H, I, A
85% D, E, F, Y
European people group
90% D, E, F, B
10% G, H, B, E
African people group
95% G, H, I, Y
5% B, D, I, Z

Now assuming A, B are Semitic markers because all 3 groups have them. Compare the remainder of DNA 85% of Jews have. D, E, F. Most of that DNA is European. The next grouping of Jews most of their DNA is African. Only 3% of this group only have one marker in common with Arabs and Edomites; so how much "Semitic DNA" does that account for really?

Theologically speaking it really doesn't matter; but to those who try to say biological descended(ness) makes someone of more favor than someone else; and this is why I made the point about Jesus not having biological children. He is the only one where it would have made a difference theologically speaking if you were a descendent of Him! And this is precisely why He didn't produce children; but that's another subject altogether.

Practically speaking; it becomes a big political sticky wicket when you have a group of people claiming they have a "right from God" to a particular piece of earthly real estate based on DNA.

When who's to say because you have no way of proving what Semitic line that DNA came from. Your genetic markers are Arab or Edomite and not Jacobite; because there's no known Jacobite DNA to compare with. And to my knowledge - I don't think we've gotten good enough at extracting DNA out of grave bone samples.

Even if we have though, we'd need a known source of "We know this is a Benjamin, or Judean"; which means your looking for the remains of one of the apostles or Mary, Joseph or Jesus's other half siblings. And scientists who'd want to run that testing, would certainly not be popular with a lot of Christian church traditions. And this would be even if we could accurately identify that "We know this is Peter" or "That is Paul" or who ever. Which is another issue with history. It's not infrequent that whom is said to be in that grave is the one who's actually there!

So, complicated and sticky = YES! You got that one right!

Thank you for this post.

You said something about knowing who the ancestors are. Keep in mind there are no lost tribes of Israel. Having said that, there are a group of people whose ancestry has been research carefully. This is the tribe of 'Levi'. They are the tribe for the temple and many they have found are now in temple training. a good place maybe to start.

Blade

ewq1938 · Mar 25, 2019

The people of God are branches on a certain olive tree. When the New covenant came, those who did not believe in Christ were removed from that tree and those that did believe were allowed to remain. In addition, branches from other olive trees (gentiles) were taken and added to this special tree. This tree is Israel, the people of God, but now it is not based on race but on the heart and Spirit.

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Today Israel is comprised of natural born Israelites as well as all other races of people. What they all share in common is they follow Jesus Christ as the Messiah. All who do not are broken off and are no longer a part of this Israel. Natural born Israel, or Jews are only Israel by blood but not by Spirit. Call it spiritual Israel if you wish. It's the only way to be of true Israel anymore.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Without Christ you are a gentile in God's eyes. "those who are of the flesh, these are not the children of God" as Paul clearly teaches.

Gill:

for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all ?? ?????, "the Israel", by way of emphasis, as in Psa_25:22, or the "Israel of God", Gal_6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges; the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", 1Co_10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, Joh_1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect; though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt".

Clarke:

Abraham is the father of many nations; and his seed is not only that which is of the law, but that also which is of the faith of Abraham, Rom_4:16, Rom_4:17. The Gentiles were included in the Abrahamic covenant as well as the Jews; and therefore the Jews have no exclusive right to the blessings of God’s kingdom.

Barnes:

Not all Israel - Not all the descendants of Jacob have the true spirit of Israelites, or are Jews in the scriptural sense of the term; see the note at Rom_2:28-29.

Wesley:

The sum is, God accepts all believers, and them only; and this is no way contrary to his word. Nay, he hath declared in his word, both by types and by express testimonies, that believers are accepted as the "children of the promise," while unbelievers are rejected, though they are "children after the flesh." All are not Israel - Not in the favour of God. Who are lineally descended of Israel.

God once chose a people. Those people chose to serve other gods. God chose to unchoose, and invite anyone who would accept Him as God. Israel is an olive tree that had many branches. God removed all branches that refused to accept the Messiah. Branches from other trees (gentiles) that accepted the Messiah were grafted to Israel. The new chosen people, the new Israel is composed of all races. Ethnicity is no longer a qualifier. Faith in Jesus Christ qualifies anyone.

"Israel" was a name that belonged to no one until God re-named Jacob and thus all of Jacob's children shared in that name. Just as God took that name and placed it on Jacob, he can take it away and give it to someone else! That's what happened. Now there are the racial, former Israelites and the new every-race Israel commonly known as spiritual Israel.

What makes someone an Israelite is no longer the outwardly meaning the flesh, your bloodline or parents. You can only be an Israelite if you are one spiritually, of a circumcised heart and that ONLY can be achieved by being in Christ. At one time all people were gentiles, then God chose 12 brothers and decided that they would father a new people, and after God divorced these people for Adultery he sent his Son to die for the sins of all peoples, all now equal, no chosen race of people any longer. Now to be a member of Israel one must be in Christ.
Who and what Israel is now has been redefined by God. Israel now is not blood related by spiritually related. All who accept Christ are Israel. All who do not, are no longer Israel.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (the idea of replacement theology which Paul says is not true)
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off not to be replaced but solely because they were non believers. Adding new branches is not replacing.

Replacement theology is scripturally incorrect according to Paul. The true theology would be "Removal Theology" because people are removed from the tree due to unbelief.

Gill:

Romans 11:19
Thou wilt say then,.... This is an objection which the apostle foresaw the Gentiles would make against what he had said, and in favour of their boasting;

Barnes:

The branches were broken off ... - The objection is, that the branches were broken off in order that others might be grafted in. To this Paul replies in the next verse, that this was not the reason why they were rejected, but their unbelief was the cause.

Replacement theology is false. Removal theology is truth.

For those that think removal theology is replacement theology re-named:

The problem is no one is replaced. The branches that are removed have their places also removed. Paul clearly states that no one is removed so another can take their place. What happens is natural branches are removed, and new branches are added making them just a part of the tree as the natural branches are. Gentiles join believing Jews as part of the same group. That may be the only similarity between the so called "replacement theology" and what Paul wrote about but the whole replacing people is simply wrong. Removing people and adding new people doesn't equal replacement. The tree has plenty of new places. No old place is re-used in the analogy and even in real world grafting you don't remove a branch that was weak or dead or producing no fruit or bad fruit and attach a new branch at that same spot. Grafting is always a new place on a tree that didn't use to have a bad branch. So, replacement is not true as far as what Paul wrote about nor is it true in literal branch grafting...exactly why Paul uses the analogy.

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

Bladerunner said:
Thank you for this post.

You said something about knowing who the ancestors are. Keep in mind there are no lost tribes of Israel. Having said that, there are a group of people whose ancestry has been research carefully. This is the tribe of 'Levi'. They are the tribe for the temple and many they have found are now in temple training. a good place maybe to start.

Blade

Totally agree - there are no "lost tribes". Although there are tribes lost to history period.

Question I have about "tribe of Levi" though; which can legitimately be claimed of anyone who has a genealogy that goes back to the 1st century.

When Herod the Great went to reconstruct the temple. (It was actually the 3rd temple.) He really really Reeeeaaaaallllly wanted to believe he was the Messiah. He wasn't though, (obviously) because he wasn't of the line of David. Yet to keep anyone from questioning his claim (Saying I've become king of Judea because I'm worthy of it.) he destroyed all the genealogical records of everyone who came out of the Babylonian captivity. So, even the priests in the 1st century were not even necessarily Levites. Herod also killed a lot of the priests.

So anyone today who says "I can trace my genealogy back to.... " is lying; because the records just do not exist.

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I would include part of Daniel 12 also.

Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time.
And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, every of the one being found written in scroll.

Luke 21:23
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man.

Are Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21:23 same event?
Edit

*
Yes
7 vote(s)
53.8%

No
4 vote(s)
30.8%

Maybe
2 vote(s)
15.4%

Never thought about it
0 vote(s)
0.0%

I don't know but am willing to learn
0 vote(s)
0.0%

Other [please explain]
0 vote(s)
0.0%

Good catch on the verses here!

:oldthumbsup:

I got to check this out, because Daniel 12, seems to me to be speaking of something that happens right before the destruction of the cosmos; whereas Luke is speaking of the destruction of the Jewish religious system.

You raise good comparisons and valid points between the two though - so (of course now) I gotta check this one out!

Thanks for the post!

jgr · Mar 25, 2019

keras said:
We are in agreement that the Israel of God, consists of only faithful, born again Christians.

Amen, brother.

keras said:
However, the majority of the peoples that have accepted Christianity are, in my opinion; actual descendants of Jacob.

Of what relevance to their salvation is that?

keras said:
You are right in asserting that every person alive today must have some of Abrahams genes, but God has kept watch; Amos 9:9, on the 12 tribes. He knows their whereabouts and in order for Him to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, plus for the 144,000 to be selected, they must be identifiable, separate from the rest of the world.

Abraham's genes are distributed across the twelve tribes. Since every person alive possesses Abraham's genes, that means every person alive belongs to one or two of the tribes (one if the union was intratribal, two if it was intertribal). Therefore, there is no separately identifiable tribalist subset within humankind. The human race in its entirety qualifies.

So what are God's selection criteria for the 144,000?

The same selection criteria He has always used.

Faith and obedience. Spiritual DNA.

Which, unsurprisingly, means that the 144,000 are nothing less than His Church.

The company of the redeemed.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

jgr said:
Since every person alive possesses Abraham's genes, that means every person alive belongs to one or two of the tribes (one if the union was intratribal, two if it was intertribal). Therefore, there is no separately identifiable tribalist subset within humankind. The human race in its entirety qualifies.

Although I agree with your premise; (the entire human race qualifies for salvation). Everyone does not have Abraham's genes. Maybe you are thinking of Noah? The entire human race is related to Noah, but not Abraham.

jgr · Mar 25, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Although I agree with your premise; (the entire human race qualifies for salvation). Everyone does not have Abraham's genes. Maybe you are thinking of Noah? The entire human race is related to Noah, but not Abraham.

Here's an example of the mathematical basis of genetic ubiquity, using Charlemagne as the subject:

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

You are correct re. Noah. But Abraham is also far enough back in the ancestral tree that his DNA has also penetrated the entirety of humanity. The article mentions 3400 years as the estimated age of the generation where ubiquity first manifests itself; and that manifestation is then increasingly true for every generation preceding back from that age.

Since Abraham lived about 4,000 years ago, his DNA lies well within the interval of ubiquitous manifestation.

Which means, of course, that with everyone on earth being a "Jew", i.e. a genetic descendant of Abraham; then genetics or biology cannot be God's covenant criterion.

Which is simply a further affirmation of Genesis 17:12.

And of God's ageless covenant criteria of faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Two chromosomes of spiritual DNA.

The Righterzpen · Mar 25, 2019

jgr said:
Here's an example of the mathematical basis of genetic ubiquity, using Charlemagne as the subject:

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

You are correct re. Noah. But Abraham is also far enough back in the ancestral tree that his DNA has also penetrated the entirety of humanity. The article mentions 3400 years as the estimated age of the generation where ubiquity first manifests itself; and that manifestation is then increasingly true for every generation preceding back from that age.

Since Abraham lived about 4,000 years ago, his DNA lies well within the interval of ubiquitous manifestation.

Which means, of course, that with everyone on earth being a "Jew", i.e. a genetic descendant of Abraham; then genetics or biology cannot be God's covenant criterion.

Which is simply a further affirmation of Genesis 17:12.

And of God's ageless covenant criteria of faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Two chromosomes of spiritual DNA.

Interesting - if covering all Abraham's possible progeny, not just Jacob.

jgr · Mar 25, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Interesting - if covering all Abraham's possible progeny, not just Jacob.

According to this, Joseph died in 1806 BC, and the dates of his brothers' deaths could not have been significantly different; thus placing all of them well within the ancestral ubiquity interval.

Bladerunner · Mar 25, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Totally agree - there are no "lost tribes". Although there are tribes lost to history period.

Question I have about "tribe of Levi" though; which can legitimately be claimed of anyone who has a genealogy that goes back to the 1st century.

When Herod the Great went to reconstruct the temple. (It was actually the 3rd temple.) He really really Reeeeaaaaallllly wanted to believe he was the Messiah. He wasn't though, (obviously) because he wasn't of the line of David. Yet to keep anyone from questioning his claim (Saying I've become king of Judea because I'm worthy of it.) he destroyed all the genealogical records of everyone who came out of the Babylonian captivity. So, even the priests in the 1st century were not even necessarily Levites. Herod also killed a lot of the priests.

So anyone today who says "I can trace my genealogy back to.... " is lying; because the records just do not exist.

Again Good evening, The Righterzpen. King Herod, remodeled the 2nd temple and I agree mostly with the rest of what you say. However, Do you have a family Bible which has the names of your ancestors on it. Maybe not all but a few. This is about the only way to find ones Heritage from back then.

There is one other factor, in the case of the Jewish heritage, God knows and would steer them in the right direction. Rem. He is still in control regardless of what Mankind does or does not do.

In Rev 7, we find God has 144,000 or 12 thousand from each tribe of Israel. Do you know which ones are missing from the "baker's dozen" tribes. I bet He knows who everyone of the remnant of Israel are as well.

Blade

ewq1938 · Mar 25, 2019

Bladerunner said:
There is one other factor, in the case of the Jewish heritage, God knows and would steer them in the right direction.

It's been almost 2000 years...the majority don't seem to have been steered in the right direction so far.

david shelby · Mar 26, 2019

To refute "replacement theology" is to refute Paul, for he is the one who taught it, especially (but not only) when he said "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" and redefined Israel and descendants (or seed) of Abraham as meaning those who believe in Christ. Also, when he claimed (obviously using Greek rather than Hebrew grammar) that the book of Genesis speaks "not of seedS plural but of seed singular, which is Christ" he disenfranchised all of the physical descendants of Abraham from the promise(s) and transferred them all in his theology to believers in Christ, who alone can be considered the "seed of Abraham" in Paul's theology because they are "in Christ" who alone is the "singular seed." This is replacement theology period. Replacement theology is what Paul teaches in Romans 9:6-7 and Galatians 3:16. So if you succeed in refuting replacement theology, you will have also refuted Paul. And then, have you not become a Jew rather than a Christian?

Yet at the same time, the Pauline understanding of the promise(s) is spiritualized (has nothing to do with inheriting land), as in Hebrews 11:8-16, where he interprets it that those who entered the promised land did not receive the promise but continued to look for a different homeland, a celestial homeland "a city whose builder and maker is God" in some more special sense than God building and making the earth. And he outright says that they were desiring "a better country, that is, a heavenly one." So in this sense, its actually not "replacement theology" but "denial of the physical nature of the promises theology"! Or its both, replacement and spiritualization at the same time.

keras · Mar 26, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It's been almost 2000 years...the majority don't seem to have been steered in the right direction so far.

You are just thinking of the 2 tribes; Judah and Benjamin - the Jewish people.
We are thinking of the entire 12 tribes, of which, most are still in dispersion, scattered among the nation, but are as numerous as the sands of the sea.
It is we Christians who are the Israelites of God, Jew and Gentile. Any other idea is a contradiction of scripture.

david shelby said:
To refute "replacement theology" is to refute Paul, for he is the one who taught it, especially (but not only) when he said "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" and redefined Israel and descendants (or seed) of Abraham as meaning those who believe in Christ.

Paul was very careful to teach that we Gentile Christians are grafted into the 'Tree', which is Jesus; a Jew and all the original Christians were Jews. There are many thousands of Messianic Jews today and we are their brethren.
So 'replacement' is a wrong idea. Added to, or Joined with, are better descriptions. The One people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, +

david shelby · Mar 26, 2019

keras said:
Paul was very careful to teach that we Gentile Christians are grafted into the 'Tree', which is Jesus; a Jew and all the original Christians were Jews. There are many thousands of Messianic Jews today and we are their brethren.
So 'replacement' is a wrong idea. Added to, or Joined with, are better descriptions. The One people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, +

I think its clear Paul only said this because there was a pre-existing Jewish church that he was adding Gentiles to. There isn't anymore. The church is the other way around now, majority Gentile, and Jews who become Christians get grafted into the goyim.

In any case, Hebrews 11:8-16 obliterates any notion that physical inheritance of land is on his radar in interpreting the promises that he believes even exist. He views the land that the heirs of Abraham are to inherit as "a heavenly country."

keras · Mar 26, 2019

david shelby said:
In any case, Hebrews 11:8-16 obliterates any notion that physical inheritance of land is on his radar in interpreting the promises that he believes even exist. He views the land that the heirs of Abraham are to inherit as "a heavenly country."

Paul was speaking metaphorically. There is much proof that we Christians will go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, +
God has plans for us and they are not to sit in heaven, doing what? No, we will be the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16 THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

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