What did Jesus mean when He told Peter he was the rock he would build his church upon?

Erik Nelson · Mar 22, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Rome as the empire fits all the descriptions. There were Roman coins minted in 70 AD that had a woman sitting on 7 hills, which John would have definitely seen. 1 Peter 5:13 implies Rome, yes?

7 Hills. Is the 7 heads of the beast? The Beast of Revelation is the fourth beast of Daniel. The Beasts of Daniel symbolize empires. The fourth beast of Daniel symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire, so the beast of Revelation likewise. Symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire.

BEAST = Pagan Roman Empire

Babylon = harlot = rider ON the beast

2 separate entities. Like a horse and rider, not a centaur.

Hence the beast defeats Babylon in revelation 18. Then Christ and his church defeat the beast in revelation 19. Ushering in the Millennium of Revelation 20.

Babylon cannot be the beast, because the beast destroys Babylon.

So who is Babylon?

Revelation 11:8

Athanasius377 · Mar 22, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
That text clearly states that the Romans are the chief church. And that others come to them to confirm the consecration of their bishops.

the underlined passage supports both Petrine and roman primacy.

Read the passage again. Chief church yes, chief bishop no. Furthermore, Cyprian later convokes a council of bishops to refute Stephen the Bishop of Rome on the Baptism of Heretics that Stephen attempted to settle by appealing to authority. Either Cyprian has no consistency or he means something else.

PROŒMIUM.—WHEN STEPHEN, BISHOP OF ROME, HAD BY HIS LETTERS CONDEMNED THE DECREES OF THE AFRICAN COUNCIL ON THE BAPTISM OF HERETICS, CYPRIAN LOST NO TIME IN HOLDING ANOTHER COUNCIL AT CARTHAGE WITH A GREATER NUMBER OF BISHOPS. HAVING THEREFORE SUMMONED EIGHTY-SEVEN BISHOPS FROM AFRICA, NUMIDIA, AND MAURITANIA, WHO ASSEMBLED AT CARTHAGE IN THE KALENDS OF SEPTEMBER, A.D. 258, THIS THIRD COUNCIL ON THE SAME MATTER OF BAPTISM WAS THEN CELEBRATED; AT THE BEGINNING OF WHICH, AFTER, THE LETTERS ON EITHER SIDE HAD BEEN READ, CYPRIAN, BY IMPLICATION, CONDEMNS THE ASSUMPTION OF STEPHEN.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (Eds.). (1886). The Seventh Council of Carthage under Cyprian. In R. E. Wallis (Trans.), Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Novatian, Appendix (Vol. 5, p. 565). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

I linked to the full text because the above is simply a prologue. Read the entire text for yourself. Use New Advent to read the father's in their original context. Most of the time when I speak with RCC's it is apparent they got an ECF quote from Jurgens' or some other collection. From time to time the quote given is a forgery that was told and then repeated ad nauseum for twenty years at Catholic Answers that no one bothered to see if it was authentic. But that's what happens when one anachronistically reads modern ideas back into history trying to prove something that did not exist at that time.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 22, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Babylon cannot be the beast, because the beast destroys Babylon.

So who is Babylon?

Revelation 11:8

that implies Jerusalem

Erik Nelson · Mar 22, 2019

Athanasius377 said:
Chief church yes, chief bishop no.

How does that make sense? The one implies the other.

Furthermore, Cyprian later convokes a council of bishops to refute Stephen the Bishop of Rome on the Baptism of Heretics that Stephen attempted to settle by appealing to authority. Either Cyprian has no consistency or he means something else.

PROŒMIUM.—WHEN STEPHEN, BISHOP OF ROME, HAD BY HIS LETTERS CONDEMNED THE DECREES OF THE AFRICAN COUNCIL ON THE BAPTISM OF HERETICS, CYPRIAN LOST NO TIME IN HOLDING ANOTHER COUNCIL AT CARTHAGE WITH A GREATER NUMBER OF BISHOPS. HAVING THEREFORE SUMMONED EIGHTY-SEVEN BISHOPS FROM AFRICA, NUMIDIA, AND MAURITANIA, WHO ASSEMBLED AT CARTHAGE IN THE KALENDS OF SEPTEMBER, A.D. 258, THIS THIRD COUNCIL ON THE SAME MATTER OF BAPTISM WAS THEN CELEBRATED; AT THE BEGINNING OF WHICH, AFTER, THE LETTERS ON EITHER SIDE HAD BEEN READ, CYPRIAN, BY IMPLICATION, CONDEMNS THE ASSUMPTION OF STEPHEN.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (Eds.). (1886). The Seventh Council of Carthage under Cyprian. In R. E. Wallis (Trans.), Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Novatian, Appendix (Vol. 5, p. 565). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

I linked to the full text because the above is simply a prologue. Read the entire text for yourself. Use New Advent to read the father's in their original context. Most of the time when I speak with RCC's it is apparent they got an ECF quote from Jurgens' or some other collection. From time to time the quote given is a forgery that was told and then repeated ad nauseum for twenty years at Catholic Answers that no one bothered to see if it was authentic. But that's what happens when one anachronistically reads modern ideas back into history trying to prove something that did not exist at that time.

It does look like Cyprian convened a Council to APPEAL the ruling of Rome.

Evidently, Saint Cyprian felt that even the decrees of the chief church at Rome. Could be appealed?

Erik Nelson · Mar 22, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
that implies Jerusalem

Jerusalem orchestrated the crucifixion. And the pagan Caesar's of Rome condoned it. The one is Babylon, the other is the Beast.

From a purely Christian perspective. By Divine Providence. The Beast poured out the wrath of Heaven on Babylon in 70 AD. In the same year. The dynasty begun by Julius Caesar also came to an end. With Nero, both parties responsible for the crucifixion appear to have been judged in 70AD.

Within Jesus' generation, per prophecy. (Matthew 24:34)

One must remember however. That when Christians come to the faith. God indwells them with the Holy Spirit and gives them a whole entire new heart. So when Rome converted to Christ. They were granted new hearts. CHRISTIAN Rome, having having been convicted of the sins of paganry and repented, is no longer the beast of revelation = Daniel's fourth beast

Anymore than Greece is anymore Daniel's third beast.

Christians are to forgive, especially the repentant.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Jesus told Peterhe was the "rock" (Greek petra) on which Christ would build his Church. Peter is the "rock" under the Church.

The best modern English translation of the Greek word for "rock" is crag. In Modern English Jesus told Peter his name is Craig. Meaning a rocky outcropping of bedrock jutting up above ground level. "Your name is Craig and upon this crag I will build my church", in Modern English.

Eventually, Peter (1 Peter 2:5) told his followers that they were living "stones" (Greek lithos). The Greek word means something the size of a marble or a chess playing piece.

Christians become stones built upon. The rocky outcrop. Of Peter himself. Much like Edinburgh Castle is built on Castle Rock.

Logically that's why Peter uniquely was given the keys to the Kingdom. Peter controls who enters and exits. The church who is and who is not a member of the church.

Because just as a STONE must be built ON top of. Castle ROCK to be part of Edinburgh Castle. And just as no stone can hang and float and hover in mid air off to the side somewhere. So only those who are built ON the foundation of PETER and his faith. Are part of The true spiritual structure of the church.

In a way, I agree with you. Jesus told Peter he was the stone under the Church, the foundation of the Christian Church. As the Bible tells us, with no foundation, the house is built on sand and becomes destroyed by the waves. But if you build the house on rock, it will withstand anything. Exactly.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
With respect, please observe that Jesus spoke plainly. In Matthew 16, he gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom. And the authority to bind and loose. In that statement did he include the other apostles? And how do we know? 2 chapters later in Matthew 18. Jesus explicitly expressly extends the authority to bind and loose to the other Apostles also.

When Jesus wanted to do something he did it plainly for all to see. We know that the other. Apostles have the authority to Bindon lose the authority to participate in defining and determining Orthodox doctoring. Because Jesus explicitly said so.

If Jesus had wanted to extend it to them. The keys of the Kingdom, he would have also plainly said so. And if he considered them the rocky outcropping. The Crag on which he would build his spiritual temple. He also would have plainly said so.

We cannot read our words into Jesus' mouth. If we do so we are assuming the authority to speak as God's Word on Earth.

When Jesus wanted to give the Apostles. Exalted authority, he said, so plainly. When he wanted to give Peter even more exalted authority. He said, so earlier and just as plainly.

He gave them authority, just not the same authority he gave Peter. They were all apostles, including Paul, and all had local authority to establish Churches. But only when they're in concert with Peter are they authoritative.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Thayer's Lexicon as depicted online at Blue Letter Bible

View attachment 251946

Well, a LITHOS is still not as large as a PETRA.

PETRA refers to the Rocky Crag of Golgotha in which the tomb of. Joseph of Arimathea was carved as well as the Rocky crag outcropping on which Herod's temple had been built. Whereas Herod's temple was made out of many individual LITHOS. No 2 of which would remain stacked and a LITHOS was rolled in front of the tomb's entrance.

View attachment 251947

The only problem here is that Jesus didn't call Simon bar Jonah "Petra". He called him Cephas/Kepha.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Matthew 16

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

well in the verse and when one goes to the greek ... it says you are "Peter" and the meaning of Peter is:

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

and then later in the verse He says on this Rock and the meaning is:

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder" (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

so I take it as more of a humbling position for Peter rather than an exalted one.

The name Jesus gave Simon bar Jonah was "Cephas" or "Kephas", not Petra.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

eleos1954 said:
***

"But please remember Jesus was actually speaking Hebrew." Was he? Could have been greek, or Aramaic (actually likely). Whether Hebrew, greek or Aramaic .... there is no way of knowing.

Regardless there are all these verses about Jesus/God being our rock and I don't find Peter referenced in any of them, nor pointing to any apostle or any man.

About rocks.

Jesus is God and is the rock ... the church is built on Jesus/God ... no doubt in my mind.

Jesus is God.

I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.” (John 8:58)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

John 10

I and the Father are one.”

The Rock

Psalm 78:35

And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24

But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15

"But Jeshu run grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3

"The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 42:9

I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29

You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12

Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32

"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31

For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2

"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31

"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7

On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1

To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3

In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2

From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3

Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4

"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22

But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

Psalm 59:9

Because of his strength I will watch for You, For God is my stronghold.

Psalm 91:2

I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!"

2 Samuel 22:3

My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Jesus declares that God had revealed this truth to Peter. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra (“on this rock”) which means a foundation boulder, as in Matthew 7:24, 25 when He described the rock upon which the wise man builds his house. Peter himself uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and those confessions of faith are the bedrock of the church.

New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) (Christ is head of the church). It makes no sense at all giving those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles (all of them) played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).

Others believe differently, ... I agree to disagree ;o)

Jesus is my rock and always will be.

God Bless.

One doesn not exclude or preclude the other.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Some things about Peter

Luke 22:54-62 (Peter denying Jesus)

54 Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest's house, and Peter was following at a distance. 55 And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat down among them. 56 Then a servant girl, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it, saying, “Woman, I do not know him.” 58 And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Peter said, “Man, I am not.” 59 And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is a Galilean.” 60 But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are talking about.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. 61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.” 62 And he went out and wept bitterly.

What do these texts tell us about Peter, even while he functioned so prominently in the early church?

Galatians 1:18-19
Galatians 2:9
Galatians 2:11-14

Who has the Keys? Jesus

Revelation 1:18 - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 3:7 - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Isaiah 22:22 - And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Revelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Sheep (the Lord is our Shepard)

Hebrews 13:20

Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

John 10:11-15

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:4
When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

John 10:7
So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

We are His sheep, Jesus is our shepherd, our rock and He holds the keys.

God Bless.

Aren't you the folks who like us to remember that, according to Romans, "all have sinned" and fall short? So if Jesus was going to choose a leader of his Church, which one was worthy? The fact is, none of them was perfect, they all had human failings. But Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all Truth. Gamaliel said it best-If it is of God, nothing can stop it, if it's not of God, nothing can keep it together. So the proof that the Catholic Church is still the Church of God is that it still exists, even with all the attempts that have been made through history to destroy it.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
See there you go again! Peter was asked 3X if he loved Him BECAUSE Peter denied Him 3X...He needed to make sure Peter understood what he had done...

Peter was asked three times if he 'agaped' him, and, Peter said "I 'filio' you. The third time, he told Jesus "Lord, you know everything" Jesus asked three times because he wanted Peter to know he was forgiven.

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Because Peter already had this nick-name long before the statement in the current discussion...

Where's that in Scripture?

prodromos · Mar 25, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Where's that in Scripture?

First chapter of John's gospel

Lost4words · Mar 25, 2019

Quote:

Rome was established as the See of Peter because Peter chose it to be. Jerusalem had become a backwater city after the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the 10th Legion. Yes, Rome was the capital of the Empire and the hub of the wheel (“all roads lead to Rome”). Peter and Paul established the Church of Rome by their blood and it was by their appointment, the See of Peter and the Head of the Church. Of course, Jesus is the head of the Church. But he left his royal steward with the keys of the kingdom as a visible head of the Church and a source of unity. There is no contradiction here.

Papacy & Catholic Hierarchy | Defenders of the Catholic Faith | Hosted by Stephen K. Ray

BBAS 64 · Mar 25, 2019

Good day,

Count me in with Augustine:

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

And Ambrose:

Upon this rock your house is built. Your rock is your faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church. If you are a rock, you will be in the Church, because the Church is on a rock. If you are in the Church the gates of hell will not prevail against you...He who has conquered the flesh is a foundation of the Church; and if he cannot equal Peter, he can imitate him (AMBROSE, Commentary in Luke VI.98, CSEL 32.4).

It was his confession.... The current day church of Rome is simply in error.

in Him,

Bill

Lost4words · Mar 25, 2019

Whichever way you look at it, the church was built on a Rock. Peters faith was as sturdy as a Rock. Peter means 'Rock'. I think it all ties in together lovely.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 25, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Peter was asked three times if he 'agaped' him, and, Peter said "I 'filio' you. The third time, he told Jesus "Lord, you know everything" Jesus asked three times because he wanted Peter to know he was forgiven.

Of course he was forgiven

Root of Jesse · Mar 25, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Of course he was forgiven

Did I suggest that he wasn't? Most of the time forgiveness is pronounced for the benefit of the forgiven. The forgiver always knows when he has forgiven someone.

ewq1938 · Mar 25, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Peter was asked three times if he 'agaped' him, and, Peter said "I 'filio' you. The third time, he told Jesus "Lord, you know everything" Jesus asked three times because he wanted Peter to know he was forgiven.

I don't see either repentance or forgiveness mentioned. Perhaps Peter didn't commit a sin in denying he knew who Christ was? It's not like he didn't believe in Christ, he just told people what they wanted to hear.

What did Jesus mean when He told Peter he was the rock he would build his church upon?

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