Tradition of men

Tone

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no. what I am saying is you cannot take the text of Scripture out of its historic context, which is what you are doing. when St Paul wrote that Scripture was God breathed, a lot of the NT wasn't on his mind because it hadn't been written yet.

Yes, I probably agree that it was primarily the Torah and other works that he was referring to. But, I can also imagine that he knew that more would be written as well, especially considering that the Breath of Yah does not sour like ours.
 
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Tone

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How on earth did you reach this conclusion? Where did you get your God breathed table of contents for your Bible?

Is your point that your church picked the makeup of the Bible?

*If so, that's great, thanks for being used to preserve Scripture!
 
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prodromos

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Is your point that your church picked the makeup of the Bible?
My point is that the books you accept as Scripture is either a tradition handed down by the Church or a man made tradition.
Which one do you follow?
 
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Tone

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My point is that the books you accept as Scripture is either a tradition handed down by the Church or a man made tradition.
Which one do you follow?

any system that patronizes a gullible group of folks and peer-pressures them into believing or doing things that do not lead to true holiness.

they will use some scripture instead of "all scripture" and it will be mixed with philosophy; or even no scripture at all.

Well, if it leads to true holiness, and it is all Scripture and not merely some, and not mixed...I'd say He has preserved His Seed perfectly!

*And, though man has been used...it is not according to the tradition as defined in the OP.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, I probably agree that it was primarily the Torah and other works that he was referring to. But, I can also imagine that he knew that more would be written as well, especially considering that the Breath of Yah does not sour like ours.

that's a pretty big assumption. any evidence to support this?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Can you be more specific?

when was the NT put together and codefied, and how did Christians know what books were legit (with all the Gnostic books floating around)?
 
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Tone

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that's a pretty big assumption. any evidence to support this?

No, I don't have any evidence to support that perhaps Paul foresaw the complete Bible, as we know it today, but he was a pretty special dude...it is even believed by some that he was caught up to the third (if I remember correctly) heaven! Course, I don't teach any of this speculation...
 
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Tone

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when was the NT put together and codefied, and how did Christians know what books were legit (with all the Gnostic books floating around)?

Same way gravity is not scientific tradition, but a law of Elohim...
 
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Tone

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when was the NT put together and codefied

When did Sir Isaac Newton "discover" gravity? Hey, I give credit where credit is due, I thanked @prodromos for his church being used in the preservation of Scripture. And I thank Newton and many others for stumbling upon the works of Yah; if they didn't, someone else would:

Luke 19:40
"And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Jesus on the cross is not a graven image in any harmful sense. God's laws were given to help those He Loves to share in His blessed fullness of Divine Life in Loving and thankful Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit. People of old who were not of God's covenant worshiped false gods who were neither good nor holy. Their religions condoned acting upon harmful and selfish lusts, practicing such things ritually (with orgies and drinking each other's blood, or the blood of sacrificed people, even their own children. The Israelites were therefor taught not to go in the way of those who worshiped idols.

Depictions of Jesus on the cross or of other believing people, Biblical events and so on, are not what was meant by "graven images" prohibited in the Old Testament. The holy images are merely symbols, not objects of worship. The making and painting of holy things is not forbidden, evil, or harmful (Exodus 25:18-20).

What is a graven image to you?
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Jesus on the cross is not a graven image in any harmful sense. God's laws were given to help those He Loves to share in His blessed fullness of Divine Life in Loving and thankful Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit. People of old who were not of God's covenant worshiped false gods who were neither good nor holy. Their religions condoned acting upon harmful and selfish lusts, practicing such things ritually (with orgies and drinking each other's blood, or the blood of sacrificed people, even their own children. The Israelites were therefor taught not to go in the way of those who worshiped idols.

Depictions of Jesus on the cross or of other believing people, Biblical events and so on, are not what was meant by "graven images" prohibited in the Old Testament. The holy images are merely symbols, not objects of worship. The making and painting of holy things is not forbidden, evil, or harmful (Exodus 25:18-20).

Why are people bowing to them...talking to them...placing money to them...lighting candles to them
 
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prodromos

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Why are people bowing to them...talking to them...placing money to them...lighting candles to them
They are not bowing to the image, but the one depicted by the image, and there is no commandment against bowing to someone else, people are doing it all through the Scriptures.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Context seems clear that they are idols of false gods.

What makes something a false god...do they pray to it...light candles to it...have a special shelf for it....talk to it...put money out to it... hum sounds familiar
 
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prodromos

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What makes something a false god...do they pray to it
They ask them (not it) for their prayers, just like I could ask you to pray for me
light candles to it
Candles are symbolic of our requests for prayer. According to Saint Symeon of Thessaloniki:
  • As the candle is pure (pure beeswax), so also should our hearts be pure.
  • As the pure candle is supple (as opposed to the paraffin), so also should our souls be supple until we make it straight and firm in the gospel.
  • As the pure candle is derived from the pollen of a flower and has a sweet scent, so also should our souls have the sweet aroma of Divine Grace.
  • As the candle, when it burns, mixes with and feeds the flame, so also we can struggle to achieve theosis.
  • As the burning candle illuminates the darkness, so must the light of Christ within us shine before men that God's name be glorified.
  • As the candle gives its own light to illuminate a man in the darkness, so also must the light of the virtues, the light of love and peace, characterize a Christian. The wax that melts symbolizes the flame of our love for our fellow men.
Besides the six symbolic representation above, Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite gives us six different reasons why Orthodox light candles:
  • To glorify God, who is Light, as we chant in the Doxology: "Glory to God who has shown forth the light..."
  • To dissolve the darkness of the night and to banish away the fear which is brought on by the darkness.
  • To manifest the inner joy of our soul.
  • To bestow honor to the saints of our Faith, imitating the early Christians of the first centuries who lit candles at the tombs of the martyrs.
  • To symbolize our good works, as the Lord said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in the heavens." The priest also gave us this charge following our baptism.
  • To have our own sins forgiven and burned away, as well as the sins of those for whom we pray.
The Use of Candles in the Orthodox Church | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER
have a special shelf for it
If you were someone who had the ear of God, you would have my utmost respect. That the Saints have a particular boldness before the throne of God has been demonstrated again and again throughout the history of the Church. They have God's ear, so we treat their images with respect.
Do you not have a picture of a loved one placed in a special or prominent place?
talk to it
We talk to them, not it, asking their prayers, which is the first item in your list. You are getting redundant.
put money out to it... hum sounds familiar
Never heard of anyone doing this, except for pagans in Japan
 
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Natsumi Lam

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They ask them (not it) for their prayers, just like I could ask you to pray for me

Candles are symbolic of our requests for prayer. According to Saint Symeon of Thessaloniki:
  • As the candle is pure (pure beeswax), so also should our hearts be pure.
  • As the pure candle is supple (as opposed to the paraffin), so also should our souls be supple until we make it straight and firm in the gospel.
  • As the pure candle is derived from the pollen of a flower and has a sweet scent, so also should our souls have the sweet aroma of Divine Grace.
  • As the candle, when it burns, mixes with and feeds the flame, so also we can struggle to achieve theosis.
  • As the burning candle illuminates the darkness, so must the light of Christ within us shine before men that God's name be glorified.
  • As the candle gives its own light to illuminate a man in the darkness, so also must the light of the virtues, the light of love and peace, characterize a Christian. The wax that melts symbolizes the flame of our love for our fellow men.
Besides the six symbolic representation above, Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite gives us six different reasons why Orthodox light candles:
  • To glorify God, who is Light, as we chant in the Doxology: "Glory to God who has shown forth the light..."
  • To dissolve the darkness of the night and to banish away the fear which is brought on by the darkness.
  • To manifest the inner joy of our soul.
  • To bestow honor to the saints of our Faith, imitating the early Christians of the first centuries who lit candles at the tombs of the martyrs.
  • To symbolize our good works, as the Lord said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in the heavens." The priest also gave us this charge following our baptism.
  • To have our own sins forgiven and burned away, as well as the sins of those for whom we pray.
The Use of Candles in the Orthodox Church | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

If you were someone who had the ear of God, you would have my utmost respect. That the Saints have a particular boldness before the throne of God has been demonstrated again and again throughout the history of the Church. They have God's ear, so we treat their images with respect.
Do you not have a picture of a loved one placed in a special or prominent place?

We talk to them, not it, asking their prayers, which is the first item in your list. You are getting redundant.

Never heard of anyone doing this, except for pagans in Japan

Sounds like a lot of words of excuses.

If it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...
 
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prodromos

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Sounds like a lot of words of excuses.
Sounds like someone who has made up their mind and won't abide any explanation.
If it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...
You will probably insist that it's a chicken
 
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