Replacement Theology Refuted

The Righterzpen

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The gentiles are fellow heirs in Christ and through the assistance of the biological descendants of Abraham,

Are you aware that the "biological descendants" of Abraham who were the 12 tribes of Israel no longer exist?

The 10 tribes were absorbed / destroyed by the Assyrians.
Judah and Benjamin went into captivity in Babylon. The Edomites (descendants of Esau) were the ones who replaced them in the land. (Archeological finds tell us that.)

Benjamin was the only tribe that survived fairly intact coming back from the Babylonian captivity until Christ came. And the only lines of Judah that survived were the lines that produced Christ.

Most of the "Jews" in the 1st century were actually mixed Edomite / Greek lineage. The Samaritans were another mixed race of people; Jews, Babylonians and Greeks.

The Jews and Benjamites left in Jerusalem by the end of the 1st century, either converted to Christianity and left the area or were destroyed by the Romans.

The Samaritans were destroyed by the Byzantine empire about 400 years later.

The Human Genome Project found that of the entire "Jewish" population today, less than 1% actually have DNA that could possibly trace back to Abraham. It's hard to tell which lines though because the Edomites and the Arabs have the same DNA markers.
 
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GingerBeer

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Are you going to make me waste my time looking up a theological article on "progressive revelation" for you? Why can't you do that and save me some time?
You would be wasting time. Mostly your own.

I know what progressive revelation means and how it is rightly applied but the way you're using the term is not rightly applying it.
 
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jgr

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The third largest newspaper in Oklahoma in terms of paid subscriptions, the Baptist Messenger, wrote a review of J. H. Allen's book, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, in which they wrote:

This is one of the most interesting volumes we have read in many a day and we confess that the arguments produced by Mr. Allen seem to be unanswerable. It is more thrilling than Western fiction. The description of the scarlet thread, the royal remnant, and the part played by Jeremiah in the preservation of the ruler for David's throne, will cause you to lose sleep rather than go to bed without knowing the outcome. J. H. Allen - Wikipedia

It is only in recent times that a number of evangelicals attempt to brand the subject a cult, while they lock hands with Roman Catholicism. There are many who believe this is a sign of the great falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which I tend to agree.

Whether British Israelism, or the Dispensational Zionism espoused by many if not most Baptists, both are characterized by RB (Replacement Biology).

Both of which are thus in repudiation of Scripture's exclusive covenantal conditions and criteria of faith and obedience; and in repudiation of the scientific reality of genetic ubiquity.

Both of which are thus dogmas of arrogance and ignorance.
 
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Bladerunner

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Are you aware that the "biological descendants" of Abraham who were the 12 tribes of Israel no longer exist?

The 10 tribes were absorbed / destroyed by the Assyrians.
Judah and Benjamin went into captivity in Babylon. The Edomites (descendants of Esau) were the ones who replaced them in the land. (Archeological finds tell us that.)

Benjamin was the only tribe that survived fairly intact coming back from the Babylonian captivity until Christ came. And the only lines of Judah that survived were the lines that produced Christ.

Most of the "Jews" in the 1st century were actually mixed Edomite / Greek lineage. The Samaritans were another mixed race of people; Jews, Babylonians and Greeks.

The Jews and Benjamites left in Jerusalem by the end of the 1st century, either converted to Christianity and left the area or were destroyed by the Romans.

The Samaritans were destroyed by the Byzantine empire about 400 years later.

The Human Genome Project found that of the entire "Jewish" population today, less than 1% actually have DNA that could possibly trace back to Abraham. It's hard to tell which lines though because the Edomites and the Arabs have the same DNA markers.

How do we know what the DNA of Abraham is? Did we get a sample.?

Blade
 
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The Righterzpen

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How do we know what the DNA of Abraham is? Did we get a sample.?

Blade

I think that's the point. What little they know is of Semitic origin can not be proven who's DNA it is. What they do know is that the vast majority of "Jews" aren't biologically Jewish.
 
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Bladerunner

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I think that's the point. What little they know is of Semitic origin can not be proven who's DNA it is. What they do know is that the vast majority of "Jews" aren't biologically Jewish.

Again, I do not understand how (they) got DNA from Abraham and How did they know it was his?

Guess I am being a little dense this evening. Been a long day.

Thank you for your answer.

Blade
 
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The Righterzpen

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Again, I do not understand how (they) got DNA from Abraham and How did they know it was his?

Guess I am being a little dense this evening. Been a long day.

Thank you for your answer.

Blade

You are correct.

The best they can do is match genetic markers of people living today that they know are related (Arabs and Edomites). But you are correct, because they don't have a known sample of "Jewish DNA" they don't know who's markers these are in this very small "Jewish sample". Arabs and Edomites share common ancestry too, so are these markers "Arab", "Edomite" or "Jewish". They can't tell because the markers are the same in all 3 groups.
 
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Bladerunner

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You are correct.

The best they can do is match genetic markers of people living today that they know are related (Arabs and Edomites). But you are correct, because they don't have a known sample of "Jewish DNA" they don't know who's markers these are in this very small "Jewish sample". Arabs and Edomites share common ancestry too, so are these markers "Arab", "Edomite" or "Jewish". They can't tell because the markers are the same in all 3 groups.

Well you might say we all are cousins. very distant but cousins none the less.

I don't really trust these DNA markers in the fact that they have so little data and cannot really rely on the data they do have. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW!

Blade
 
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keras

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Who is the House of Israel?
A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it was said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26

The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.
If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14
The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people think that the original House of Israel is lost forever.
 
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keras

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Hosea was already fulfilled in 515bc when the Israelite remnant returned from Babylonian captivity. No need for it to be fulfilled again.
Preterist rubbish.
Israel is prophesied to be as many as the sands of the sea. Do the Jews now, or ever been that numerous?
Obviously the Blessings promised to ALL of Israel, incl those grafted in, have not been fulfilled yet.
 
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jgr

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Preterist rubbish.
Israel is prophesied to be as many as the sands of the sea. Do the Jews now, or ever been that numerous?
Obviously the Blessings promised to ALL of Israel, incl those grafted in, have not been fulfilled yet.

We've been over this innumerable times, keras.

You know, and have yourself demonstrated, better.

By what characteristics does God identify and distinguish Israel?
 
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Dave L

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I don't have to get around anything. Biology and the scriptures demolish your misrepresentations.
The scriptures reject any born of Abraham's DNA who are not circumcised reducing them to gentiles. Circumcision, not blood, made one a Jew.
 
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BABerean2

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Obviously the Blessings promised to ALL of Israel, incl those grafted in, have not been fulfilled yet.

How does the beginning of the letter below relate to your statement above?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Who was James addressing as "the twelve tribes"?

.
 
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Bladerunner

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Preterist rubbish.
Israel is prophesied to be as many as the sands of the sea. Do the Jews now, or ever been that numerous?
Obviously the Blessings promised to ALL of Israel, incl those grafted in, have not been fulfilled yet.

The New covenant is for both the Remnant of Israel and the Church (body/bride) of Jesus Christ. Yet, Each will have a different outcome in the millennium.

Blade
 
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keras

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We've been over this innumerable times, keras.

You know, and have yourself demonstrated, better.

By what characteristics does God identify and distinguish Israel?
We are in agreement that the Israel of God, consists of only faithful, born again Christians.
However, the majority of the peoples that have accepted Christianity are, in my opinion; actual descendants of Jacob.
You are right in asserting that every person alive today must have some of Abrahams genes, but God has kept watch; Amos 9:9, on the 12 tribes. He knows their whereabouts and in order for Him to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, plus for the 144,000 to be selected, they must be identifiable, separate from the rest of the world.
The New covenant is for both the Remnant of Israel and the Church (body/bride) of Jesus Christ. Yet, Each will have a different outcome in the millennium. Blade
By the 'remnant of Israel', do you mean the Jewish people?
If so, prophecy tells us that they will be uprooted; Jeremiah 12:14, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14, +
That is their outcome, but for the faithful Christians, Jew and Gentile, God promises many blessings to them as they go to live in all of the Promised Land. That is our hope and our destiny.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How does the beginning of the letter below relate to your statement above?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Who was James addressing as "the twelve tribes"?

.
12 tribes........repent!

Jeremiah 4
13 “Behold, as clouds he shall come up, [Revelation 1:7]
And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are plundered!”
14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, That you may be saved.
How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you? [Matthew 23]
=====================================
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2875. kopto
a primary verb;
to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:--cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail. Compare the base of 5114.
G2875 κόπτω (koptō) occurs 10 times in 8 verses

Matthew 24:30
And then shall be appearing the sign of the Son of the Man in heaven and then shall be wailing<2875> all the tribes of the land
and they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven with much power and glory.

Luke 23

27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And wailed<2875> and dirged<2354> over Him.
28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem no be lamenting<2799> over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting<2799>, and upon the children of ye.
[Isaiah 4:4 Revelation 18:9]
============================================
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds and shall be seeing<3700> Him every eye even/also those who Him they pierce<1574> [Jeremiah 4:13-14]
and shall be wailing<2875> over Him all the tribes of the land. Yea, Amen.

Revelation 18:9
And shall be lamenting<2799> over Her and shall be wailing<2875> over Her the kings of the land, [Luke 23:27-28]
those with Her committing whoredom and indulging whenever they may be beholding<991> the smoke of Her firing<4451>.

302660_c2760f5cc7d57e7088338ce451af705b.jpg
 
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BABerean2

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The New covenant is for both the Remnant of Israel and the Church (body/bride) of Jesus Christ. Yet, Each will have a different outcome in the millennium.

We do not find Two Peoples of God in the New Testament.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


The premill doctrine is also not found in the New Testament, based on the timing of the "judgment of the dead" found in 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18.


.
 
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Bladerunner

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We are in agreement that the Israel of God, consists of only faithful, born again Christians.
However, the majority of the peoples that have accepted Christianity are, in my opinion; actual descendants of Jacob.
You are right in asserting that every person alive today must have some of Abrahams genes, but God has kept watch; Amos 9:9, on the 12 tribes. He knows their whereabouts and in order for Him to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, plus for the 144,000 to be selected, they must be identifiable, separate from the rest of the world.

No, I do not think we are in agreement. The Church (body/bride) of Christ consist of Jew and Gentile as one body.

The remnant of Israel is yet to be separated from the nation of Israel. This will be accomplished during Daniel's 70th week and specifically Jacob's troubles (last half of Daniel's 70th week.)

By the 'remnant of Israel', do you mean the Jewish people?
If so, prophecy tells us that they will be uprooted; Jeremiah 12:14, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14.

That is their outcome, but for the faithful Christians, Jew and Gentile, God promises many blessings to them as they go to live in all of the Promised Land. That is our hope and our destiny.

NO, what I mean is..During Daniel's 70-th week, Israel will have made a covenant with "Death and HELL" (Yes, the Pale (fourth) horse of apocalypse in Rev 6) This covenant will fail at the beginning of the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week (the Abomination of Desolate) as seen in Isa 28:14-18.

In Mark 13:14.."But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"


The ones that are fleeing Judaea and live to get there (as seen in Rev 12:13-16 will be the Remnant of Israel as Jesus saves them from certain death at the hands of Satan. Rev.12:15-16.

By the way, you are right, there are no lost tribes of Israel for if they are; God does not know they are lost?lol

Rev 7:4.."And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."


Blade
 
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