Tradition of men

The traditions of man are usually actions that are extrabiblical and contradict the word or take the Word of God too far that it benefits the psyche of man.

Catholicism is rife with traditions that contridict the word.

Ie figurines with Saints, praying to Mary

Very seldom though do you reach someone through pointing out contridictions of their belief system. I am curous about what the heart of this thread maybe. I understand the it is a debate though.

Tone said:

Well thanks! It's also in accordance with the rest of Scripture, even from Genesis 1:1, as I showed in my post #90!

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Whether or not the belief is in accordance with the rest of Scripture depends upon what sort of person is reading the Scriptures. Arius read Scripture, and contended that believing that the Son of God is God is contrary to Scripture, even Genesis 1:1.

A Jehovah's Witness, and all other anti-Trinitarians will quickly tell you that their belief that the Son of God is not God is Scriptural, and that the so-called Christian religion corrupted the true teaching of Scripture with their own "traditions of men" which they concocted when they mingled the Gospel with Babylonian style polytheistic and idolatrous beliefs and practices. "We", they say, "are those who bear witness to Jehovah's truth, because we rely solely on the Bible, unlike the false Christendom of the world." (yes, false Christendom includes the Trinitarian believing Christianity that you ascribe to).

As for the Orthodox Christians, we don't believe the lies coming out of the JW "Watchtower", or from false prophets like Mohammed and Joseph Smith, or from anywhere else. We Live the Holy Tradition of the ancient faith, the Holy Tradition that is unchanging in its essence from the time the Lord established it. That is that. Those who object to various expressions of Orthodox Holy Tradition often do so for reasons that few if any of them can spiritually comprehend.

Natsumi Lam said:

The traditions of man are usually actions that are extrabiblical and contradict the word or take the Word of God too far that it benefits the psyche of man.

Catholicism is rife with traditions that contridict the word.

Ie figurines with Saints, praying to Mary

Very seldom though do you reach someone through pointing out contridictions of their belief system. I am curous about what the heart of this thread maybe. I understand the it is a debate though.

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It isn't, really. Except that in Roman Catholicism there are some things that don't accord with Holy Tradition. Figurines are not idols. Saints aren't either, they are our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, and rendering honor to whom honor in Christ is due is not idolatry, nor is humbly asking for prayers from such. None of these things are "extrabiblical", and the doing of such things is the natural outflowing of the blessed Life that God gives us in His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. None of those things you've pointed to are sinful in the eyes of God. Rather, they are blessings and gifts from God.

I think the Lord is saying when we fail to keep God’s commandments we defile tradition itself ( Mark 7:8). The result are evil thoughts & deeds ( Mark 7:21-22).

truefiction1 said:

It isn't, really. Except that in Roman Catholicism there are some things that don't accord with Holy Tradition. Figurines are not idols. Saints aren't either, they are our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, and rendering honor to whom honor in Christ is due is not idolatry, nor is humbly asking for prayers from such. None of these things are "extrabiblical", and the doing of such things is the natural outflowing of the blessed Life that God gives us in His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. None of those things you've pointed to are sinful in the eyes of God. Rather, they are blessings and gifts from God.

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What about not making a graven image...Jesus on the cross...the saints?

Most of the early Christians could not read although they needed to know that the Lord was God among us ( John 1:1-5, John 1:14 etc. ), what He did for us ( Philippians 2:5-11 etc.), this is in accordance to the will of God on earth as in heaven ( Matthew 6:9-10 etc. ). The Lord said no one has seen God ( John 1:18), He has permitted us to say in Him we have seen the Father ( John 14:7-11), He is the image of the Father ( Colossians 1:15-18 ). It is by guidelines like this in which the Lord has permitted imagery in worship to God in which we are joined to the saints ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ).

ArmyMatt said:

that doesn't change that the Scripture that is God breathed is only the OT

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Is this what you believe?

ArmyMatt said:

or that there was Scripture written after the verse which says it's God breathed.

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What?

ArmyMatt said:

if you wanna use that quote, that means only St Paul's writings can be seen as God breathed.

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Is this also how you believe?

Tone said:

Is this what you believe?



What?



Is this also how you believe?

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of course not, it's what you have been saying if we put what you said in its historical context.

Lukaris said:

Most of the early Christians could not read

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This is a good point...the writings were entrusted to those close to the elders and apostles or the wealthy few that could afford them. This served to keep what was (and is) essential. Of course, Yah preserves His Word, even if it means using rulers of men, who are not necessarily regenerate, to do it.

ArmyMatt said:

of course not, it's what you have been saying if we put what you said in its historical context.

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Probably not...

Tone said:

Probably not...

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Then you follow a tradition.

Natsumi Lam said:

What about not making a graven image...Jesus on the cross...the saints?

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Jesus on the cross is not a graven image in any harmful sense. God's laws were given to help those He Loves to share in His blessed fullness of Divine Life in Loving and thankful Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit. People of old who were not of God's covenant worshiped false gods who were neither good nor holy. Their religions condoned acting upon harmful and selfish lusts, practicing such things ritually (with orgies and drinking each other's blood, or the blood of sacrificed people, even their own children. The Israelites were therefor taught not to go in the way of those who worshiped idols.

Natsumi Lam said:

What about not making a graven image...Jesus on the cross...the saints?

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Depictions of Jesus on the cross or of other believing people, Biblical events and so on, are not what was meant by "graven images" prohibited in the Old Testament. The holy images are merely symbols, not objects of worship. The making and painting of holy things is not forbidden, evil, or harmful (Exodus 25:18-20).

prodromos said:

Then you follow a tradition.

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David Cabrera said:

What are the tradition of men Jesus talk about?

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One of those from the OP?

truefiction1 said:

We Live the Holy Tradition of the ancient faith, the Holy Tradition that is unchanging in its essence from the time the Lord established it.

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David Cabrera said:

What are the tradition of men Jesus talk about?

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Not one of those from the OP though right?

It is understood that we are not to internalize what our icons represent in worship into distorted mental images formed when closing our eyes.

I think an example of this can be applied to observations of the 4th c. monk: Evagrios.

113. The monk becomes equal to the angels through prayer, because of his longing to ‘behold the face of the Father who is in heaven (as in Matthew 18:10).

114. Never try to see a form or shape during prayer.

115. Do not long to have a sensory image of angels or powers or Christ, for this would be madness: it would be to take a wolf as your shepherd and to worship your enemies, the demons.

These are numbered statements of Evagrios: On Prayer, Philokalia vol.1.

Tone said:

Probably not...

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no, it is. you referenced Revelation. that work was written long after both Sts Peter and Paul died. so that wasn't what either man was talking about when they referenced Scripture.

Tone said:

One of those from the OP?

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That would depend on which books you consider to be, or not to be, Scripture.

prodromos said:

That would depend on which books you consider to be, or not to be, Scripture.

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So, you are saying that there is a way to recognize Scripture that goes against the Commands of Elohim?

ArmyMatt said:

no, it is. you referenced Revelation. that work was written long after both Sts Peter and Paul died. so that wasn't what either man was talking about when they referenced Scripture.

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Okay, I'm having a hard time following your train of thought. So are you basically saying what I asked @prodromos in my post #117?

Tone said:

Okay, I'm having a hard time following your train of thought. So are you basically saying what I asked @prodromos in my post #117?

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no. what I am saying is you cannot take the text of Scripture out of its historic context, which is what you are doing. when St Paul wrote that Scripture was God breathed, a lot of the NT wasn't on his mind because it hadn't been written yet.

so no, I am not saying there is a way to recognize Scripture apart from God's command. I am saying, if you knew the history, you would know what you have said here does not follow God's command.

Tone said:

So, you are saying that there is a way to recognize Scripture that goes against the Commands of Elohim?

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How on earth did you reach this conclusion? Where did you get your God breathed table of contents for your Bible?