"j"esus culture and hillsong apostates

HatGuy

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Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in demonic possession. And if so, how do you think demons can enter?
I do, and I have prayed for people who were demonised and seen them set free.

However, I don't speculate on how they can enter. I can suspect that idolatry could have something to do with it, and I am sure continuous, habitual sin can put some demonic influence in your life, but the Bible doesn't seem to have much details on how a demon 'enters'. (And besides, the correct word is demonised not possessed, putting questions on what it means for a demon to 'enter' or 'influence' quite strongly.).

Given your question and the context in which it was asked, I do not believe a demon can enter through music - I have no scriptural grounds to incorporate such a belief.
 
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FireDragon76

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So, you don’t have any issue with Johnson’s claims that Jesus was just a man on earth, that He “laid aside His divinity”, that “God is in charge, but not in control”, that Jesus died on the cross for our physical healing in this life, etc.?

Some of that is true potentially, but perhaps stated clumsily. Other bits, such as Jesus purchasing healing, need a great deal of unpacking. (BTW, my church is pretty non-charismatic in their spirituality but we do practice anointing of the sick).
 
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Romans 8

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I do, and I have prayed for people who were demonised and seen them set free.

Great, so you understand the reality of spiritual warfare.

However, I don't speculate on how they can enter. I can suspect that idolatry could have something to do with it, and I am sure continuous, habitual sin can put some demonic influence in your life, but the Bible doesn't seem to have much details on how a demon 'enters'.

Does worshiping a Christian rock band not qualify as idolatry?


(And besides, the correct word is demonised not possessed, putting questions on what it means for a demon to 'enter' or 'influence' quite strongly.).

Sure, we can use your term. The point it that we both agree on what the word represents.

Given your question and the context in which it was asked, I do not believe a demon can enter through music - I have no scriptural grounds to incorporate such a belief.

Admittedly, you have no clue as to how demons can enter, you just believe they "got in" somehow. Because the bible does not exlplain this, are we to infer that a person is born with a demon? No, so there must be an entry point, a window of opportunity.

I have done much research into spiritual warfare, and I can confidently tell you that demons can enter through media such as music, TV, and even video games. I might not have believed it myself if I had not heard/seen/read this from reputable pastors who have the word of knowledge and were explained all this by the Holy Spirit as demons were cast out. Another entry point is through violence and sexual abuse. Also, unforgiveness and resentment towards others. Another entry point is from catastrophes, accidents, especially car accidents etc. Another is through drugs and alcohol. Demons are a major cause of addiction. So although music may seem harmless, there are entryways for demonic influence through it.

The hypnotic repetitiveness of music is what puts people into a trance leaving them susceptible to demonic influence. This is why shamans, and village people in Africa and other places use their repetitive beating of drums. I would suggest doing some research into the mechanics of spiritual warfare to better understand how these people operate.
 
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HatGuy

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Great, so you understand the reality of spiritual warfare.

Does worshiping a Christian rock band not qualify as idolatry?
Sure, I would say if it is explicitly done. I don't think for many people who love music or a particular band it's an explicit thing. It's tricky here - 'worship' of music or a band is very subjective. But open idolatry - I mean, like literally worshipping them, would be something else entirely.

Sure, we can use your term. The point it that we both agree on what the word represents.
Ok, cool.

Admittedly, you have no clue as to how demons can enter, you just believe they "got in" somehow. Because the bible does not exlplain this, are we to infer that a person is born with a demon? No, so there must be an entry point, a window of opportunity.

I have done much research into spiritual warfare, and I can confidently tell you that demons can enter through media such as music, TV, and even video games. I might not have believed it myself if I had not heard/seen/read this from reputable pastors who have the word of knowledge and were explained all this by the Holy Spirit as demons were cast out. Another entry point is through violence and sexual abuse. Also, unforgiveness and resentment towards others. Another entry point is from catastrophes, accidents, especially car accidents etc. Another is through drugs and alcohol. Demons are a major cause of addiction. So although music may seem harmless, there are entryways for demonic influence through it.
This is reasonable speculation, but speculation nonetheless - in other words, we're now building a theology from experience.

I'm okay to include experience in building a worldview (of course, we have to) but I'm not so keen in being dogmatic about experience. This is the problem with a lot of spiritual warfare theology - it gets incredibly dogmatic about things based on a stack load of experience.

I understand that demonic influence is behind the world's and people's problems, but I do not believe that getting superstitious about music or items and a myriad of other things is strictly helpful to anyone. Unfortunately, I've actually seen too many people under demonic influence in worse ways once they got really into spiritual warfare. I've seen to many people come back worse after so-called deliverance ministry. This is often because spiritual warfare teaching makes people more scared and fearful - and makes people really superstitious about so many things in life, making them more fearful. So they won't listen to certain music because they're so afraid the demons have some sort of power on them through it. Eventually, they live their lives in fear, not in the glorious freedom of Christ. It's as if the demons are everywhere and found in everything, and Christ is hardly anywhere to be seen.

The hypnotic repetitiveness of music is what puts people into a trance leaving them susceptible to demonic influence.
I won't buy this, unless the music is being used deliberately by not just the musicians but the people using the music to put themselves under demonic influence.

I'll explain below this next quote of yours.

This is why shamans, and village people in Africa and other places use their repetitive beating of drums. I would suggest doing some research into the mechanics of spiritual warfare to better understand how these people operate.
'
Agreed that Shamans use this sort of music, but the key word is "use". The music itself is not evil (how could it be? It's devoid of any content) but how it's used is of paramount importance.

And when I say 'used' I refer not just to the perpetrator (the musician, the Shaman) but also the receiver (the person). In other words, if I were to walk into a Shamanic ceremony for whatever weird reason, I will not be affected by the music or the demonic influence, because I am not using the music for that purpose. However, those that do are. They are deliberately opening themselves up to demons because that's what they came to do.

For this reason, I disagree that Bethel or Hillsong's music by nature opens up anyone to anything. I don't think a bunch of innocent kids are suddenly getting demons attached to them because they are naive or untaught or just young and just came to be with their mates, or even because they just like the music or the bands or the lights or the cool vibes and cool hair. I would find that patently unfair on God's part that He is unable to protect kids from demonic influence who simply don't know theology very well. Is God's grace not stronger than that? However, I do agree that the music can be used to (a) make people connect more emotionally to the band / the people involved in some way, and (b) make them more susceptible to believe the content of the music or any teaching that follows.

Some background will suffice. I am a musician and a pastor. I have toured in rock bands across my country. I am capable enough to know fairly roughly what sounds and notes from my guitar can illicit an emotional response. Minor keys are sad, major keys are happy. Certain frequencies can create atmosphere and depth. And am aware that my own emotional delivery of music has an effect on the crowd. I am aware that dissonance in rock music creates a sense of mystery and awe. If you want more information, simply go to Youtube and type "Rick Beato's What Makes This Song so Great" and he breaks down famous songs in history and tells you why the song connects to people so well. It's very interesting. But I'm also aware that this is not a spirit floating out of my guitar, it is simply human psychology and how God made people to respond to music.

But I am aware that if someone had to use my playing deliberately to connect to a demon, then they will connect to a demon. It has nothing to do with my playing, it has everything to do with their intent.

I see every reason to believe that it's a good thing to draw people to God emotionally through music, but I'm also aware of the importance of teaching people not to live on emotional hype through music, but to ground themselves in scripture as the truest and best source for a spiritual life.

Young kids aren't really worshipping these bands, they are simply connecting to them in ways that are easier for them. It's easier for a kid to experience novelty and emotion, and music speaks to them very strongly because they are literally more emotional. Unfortunately, much of preaching doesn't, because of many reasons - some of which are really the fault of the preacher and the local church. Those of us that are older no longer experience much novelty in music because we've heard most of what there is before. But I remember what it was like to be a kid. You're looking for an emotional connection and in music you find it.

The danger, as has been pointed out, is that if you like Jesus Culture you're very likely to explore what Bethel teaches. And because you're an impressionable young person and have never actually heard half of the stuff Bethel teaches anywhere else just yet (although, when you get older you realise it's nothing new) you are curious and intrigued and in a place where you are easily influenced. Sure, there is some demonic influence happening here - and false teaching is surely demonically influenced in some way. But I don't see any reason to believe the music style itself is what's the real problem. It's the whole package, really.

You know, I've ready stacks of books on spiritual warfare and my church was strong on it in the 90's and early 2000's, but we realised we were causing more harm than good. Going around 'claiming territories' and the like. Speaking to Satan to be gone from a place. All this stuff. As a good friend says, he was in that prayer meeting when Satan was finally bound to the pit and told he could never come out again! But it's all really not biblical practice. I really feel like I've run the gamut through that stuff and so much of it was unhelpful to me and my friends. Spiritual warfare is real, but there is a healthy sort and an unhealthy sort, and I'm afraid the article quoted earlier looks like it bends towards the unhealthy.
 
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amariselle

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Some of that is true potentially, but perhaps stated clumsily. Other bits, such as Jesus purchasing healing, need a great deal of unpacking. (BTW, my church is pretty non-charismatic in their spirituality but we do practice anointing of the sick).

Johnson teaches that Jesus died on the cross so that we can be healed in this life. Do they still have funerals at Bethel?

These earthly, flesh and blood bodies (which Scripture plainly tells us won’t inherit the Kingdom) do indeed perish, or for those who are truly saved and still alive at Christ’s return, are instantly transformed.

Jesus death on the cross was not about healing and saving our physical, earthly bodies. To say so is absurd and turns Christ’s sacrifice into something it was definitely not about.

And we had better believe that God is in control. We had also better believe Jesus was truly God and did not lay aside His divinity. God is God, eternally, no beginning and no end. He never stops being God.

Bethel has “another Jesus.”
 
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FireDragon76

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Healing is healing though. And our earthly bodies participate in the reality of our resurrected bodies, the two are not completely different.

Jesus set aside the perrogatives of his divinity in his incarnation. He didn't call upon thousands of angels to save him on the Cross, for instance, and he chose to be born in a stable instead of a palace. When he performed miracles, he did so as a man through the Spirit, even while in his person he was divine. That is indeed correct Christology.

God does not control the world in terms of immediate causality. He works through secondary causes, and there is a certain freedom to his creation despite the fact he sustains its being. Therefore, there is still room for creaturely responsibility.


Be careful in criticising what is perceived as heresy. I'd rather not use too fine a point in doing so, because you are libel to end up committing another heresy.
 
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HatGuy

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I want to add this as a means of encouragement: I've found that when young people get into this stuff they are far more likely to grow out of it and be open to being taught correct doctrine; but when older people get into this stuff, they're far less open to being taught, and many of them don't want to listen because they think they've finally found the solution to a life long of problems.

What it takes is people just to teach young people. Honestly, they're impressionable, but this also presents an opportunity to teach discernment to them.
 
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FireDragon76

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Don't go off the deep end and think there's juju in music. That's like the folks I used to know that wouldn't touch anything that was made by a Hindu or a pagan, back in my Orthodox days- it was taking things a bit too far. It's just not the kind of bold faith we are called to have . As Br. Martin said of the Devil, "one little word subdues him".
 
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FireDragon76

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The drums thing makes me think of what happened in Sweden with the Saami people (Laplanders). The Swedish government had destroyed traditional Saami culture, tore up their drums (which shamans used), and they all became alcoholics, not good little Lutherans. It was not until a Saami himself named Lars Laestadius started preaching to his own people and knew how to use their culture, including drums, that people actually felt like they could understand what was being preached.
 
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RDKirk

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Um. I think Hillsong is actually really nice to listen to. I'm not there to be edified theologically, I'm there to listen to songs of praise and worship. I don't know about the performers personally though, but I'm not really into idolizing people enough to look into their lives (famous or not)

Yes, just take the song as it is and apply the Philippian Prescription.

If I disliked a song because some evil people sang it, I'd have to dislike everything sung in Southern Baptist Churches up until the 70s.
 
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Romans 8

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Unfortunately, I've actually seen too many people under demonic influence in worse ways once they got really into spiritual warfare. I've seen to many people come back worse after so-called deliverance ministry.

Maybe they weren't delivered. The point is to be set free. The only time they ought to be worse off than when they started is if they are delivered when they are not Christians. A demon has the legal right to return with 7 more stronger than itself if it's cast out illegally.

This is often because spiritual warfare teaching makes people more scared and fearful - and makes people really superstitious about so many things in life, making them more fearful. So they won't listen to certain music because they're so afraid the demons have some sort of power on them through it. Eventually, they live their lives in fear, not in the glorious freedom of Christ. It's as if the demons are everywhere and found in everything, and Christ is hardly anywhere to be seen.

I haven't met anyone like that. There's a difference between avoidance and phobia.

if I were to walk into a Shamanic ceremony for whatever weird reason, I will not be affected by the music or the demonic influence, because I am not using the music for that purpose. However, those that do are. They are deliberately opening themselves up to demons because that's what they came to do.

I don't follow. You believe that you must consciously agree to a demon "demonizing" you? I would bet if you polled those who've been delivered they would have another story.


For this reason, I disagree that Bethel or Hillsong's music by nature opens up anyone to anything. I don't think a bunch of innocent kids are suddenly getting demons attached to them because they are naive or untaught or just young and just came to be with their mates, or even because they just like the music or the bands or the lights or the cool vibes and cool hair. I would find that patently unfair on God's part that He is unable to protect kids from demonic influence who simply don't know theology very well. Is God's grace not stronger than that?

Why would that be God's fault? How do you think the enemy presents himself? He doesn't walk up to his subjects wearing red tights and sticky horns, carrying a pitchfork.
Delusion happens when people allow themselves to become seduced and enticed by sin and selfish desire. Age is not a factor. And unfortunately there are countless people going to hell because they fell for demonic doctrines and lies. Delusion happens when people stop listening to their inner "voice", instead for their own selfish desires. When we ignore out inner voice enough times, eventually we can no longer hear it. This is why we must always listen to our conscience. This is our Spirit.

The danger, as has been pointed out, is that if you like Jesus Culture you're very likely to explore what Bethel teaches. And because you're an impressionable young person and have never actually heard half of the stuff Bethel teaches anywhere else just yet (although, when you get older you realise it's nothing new) you are curious and intrigued and in a place where you are easily influenced. Sure, there is some demonic influence happening here - and false teaching is surely demonically influenced in some way. But I don't see any reason to believe the music style itself is what's the real problem. It's the whole package, really.

I agree with your last sentence.

"j"esus culture was birthed from a Satanic church. If you want to argue that they're ok, you're denying truth. These bands and Bethel church work together. Bethel is a breeding ground for demons. They get you through the music and their church together.

You know, I've ready stacks of books on spiritual warfare

And this is the only reason we are able to have a conversation right now. I wish more Christians would be open to this.

and my church was strong on it in the 90's and early 2000's, but we realised we were causing more harm than good. Going around 'claiming territories' and the like. Speaking to Satan to be gone from a place. All this stuff. As a good friend says, he was in that prayer meeting when Satan was finally bound to the pit and told he could never come out again! But it's all really not biblical practice. I really feel like I've run the gamut through that stuff and so much of it was unhelpful to me and my friends.

I think it's unfortunate the things went south in your church. However, I wonder how much worse-off the members really are, through understanding spiritual warfare vs having learned nothing to protect themselves. How many "demonized" Christians are walking around today because they carelessly don't believe in demons?

Spiritual warfare is real, but there is a healthy sort and an unhealthy sort,

What currently fits your current mindset doesn't necessarily dictate what's healthy. You had a bad experience but that's not true for all. I think the more that people are educated on the matter the less fear they should have as they would understand that Christians have power over all demons through Jesus Christ. So if one still fears after learning about Spiritual Warfare, it's their own mistrust of Jesus and his dominion over Satan and what he did on the cross. God Bless!
 
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RDKirk

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What exactly is wrong with...

There is a single line in that song that will be attacked.

To be honest, I raised an eyebrow the first time I heard it myself, then thought about it for a moment and realized it was just a somewhat odd way to phrase a concept that was totally scriptural.

If I were writing that line, I'd have added the words "to be" to make it parse better.
 
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Halbhh

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What exactly is wrong with...



Possibly the most popular Hillsong song is "What a Beautiful Name". I'll try to look up some of the verses for it -- (after reviewing below, are there verses anyone wants to examine further?)

Lyrics: "What a Beautiful Name"

You were the Word at the beginning (John 1:1)
One With God the Lord Most High (John 1:1)
Your hidden glory in creation (John 1:3)
Now revealed in You our Christ

What a beautiful Name it is
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King (Revelation 19:16)
What a beautiful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You didn't want heaven without us
So Jesus, You brought heaven down (Mark 1:15, Luke 17:21)
My sin was great, Your love was greater (John 15:13)
What could separate us now

What a wonderful Name it is
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a wonderful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

How sweet is your name, Lord, how good You are
Love to sing in the name of the Lord, love to sing for you all?
Death could not hold You, the veil tore before You (Matthew 27:51)
You silenced the boast, of sin and grave (Romans 6:9, Romans 6:6)
The heavens are roaring, the praise of Your glory
For You are raised to life again (Matthew 28:6, Romans 6:4)
You have no rival, You have no equal (Rev 19:16)
Now and forever, Our God reigns
Yours is the Kingdom, Yours is the glory (Rev 22:13, 16)
Yours is the Name, above all names
What a powerful Name it is
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a powerful Name it is
Nothing can stand against
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You have no rival, You have no equal
Now and forever, Our God reigns
Yours is the Kingdom, Yours is the glory
Yours is the Name, above all names
What a powerful Name it is
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a powerful Name it is
Nothing can stand against
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What A Beautiful Name - Hillsong Worship Lyrics and Chords | Worship Together



Are there verses anyone wants to examine further?



There is a single line in that song that will be attacked.

To be honest, I raised an eyebrow the first time I heard it myself, then thought about it for a moment and realized it was just a somewhat odd way to phrase a concept that was totally scriptural.

If I were writing that line, I'd have added the words "to be" to make it parse better.
I cannot listen to Hillsong or Bethel anymore, friends. And this is why—very, very questionable theology.

So, from a reformed perspective I suppose, who are some trustworthy Christian artists and groups with Biblically sound lyrics?
 
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Romans 8

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Yes, just take the song as it is and apply the Philippian Prescription.

If I disliked a song because some evil people sang it, I'd have to dislike everything sung in Southern Baptist Churches up until the 70s.

Right, so millions of church-going Americans are "evil". Nice post.
 
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brinny

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Um. I think Hillsong is actually really nice to listen to. I'm not there to be edified theologically, I'm there to listen to songs of praise and worship. I don't know about the performers personally though, but I'm not really into idolizing people enough to look into their lives (famous or not)

Do you mean "entertainment"?

Praise and worship IS edification theologically. It's about GOD. Is it not?

Otherwise, He's just an "after thought", isn't He?
 
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Romans 8

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Do mean "entertainment"?

Praise and worship IS edification theologically. It's about GOD. Is it not?

Otherwise, He's just an "after thought", isn't He?

This is the narcissistic attitude of Bethel fans. "Entertain me". I want to feel good.

Praise and worship is for Christians to worship God, not the music (friend of).

Bethel is worshiping a different God. How does that affect Christians who sing their music? I don't know but I would much rather sing/listen to music that I know was inspired for/towards the one and true living God. Amen!
 
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FireDragon76

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Possibly the most popular Hillsong song is "What a Beautiful Name". I'll try to look up some of the verses for it -- (after reviewing below, are there verses anyone wants to examine further?)

Lyrics: "What a Beautiful Name"

You were the Word at the beginning (John 1:1)
One With God the Lord Most High (John 1:1)
Your hidden glory in creation (John 1:3)
Now revealed in You our Christ

What a beautiful Name it is
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King (Revelation 19:16)
What a beautiful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You didn't want heaven without us
So Jesus, You brought heaven down (Mark 1:15, Luke 17:21)
My sin was great, Your love was greater (John 15:13)
What could separate us now

What a wonderful Name it is
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a wonderful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

How sweet is your name, Lord, how good You are
Love to sing in the name of the Lord, love to sing for you all?
Death could not hold You, the veil tore before You (Matthew 27:51)
You silenced the boast, of sin and grave (Romans 6:9, Romans 6:6)
The heavens are roaring, the praise of Your glory
For You are raised to life again (Matthew 28:6, Romans 6:4)
You have no rival, You have no equal (Rev 19:16)
Now and forever, Our God reigns
Yours is the Kingdom, Yours is the glory (Rev 22:13, 16)
Yours is the Name, above all names
What a powerful Name it is
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a powerful Name it is
Nothing can stand against
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You have no rival, You have no equal
Now and forever, Our God reigns
Yours is the Kingdom, Yours is the glory
Yours is the Name, above all names
What a powerful Name it is
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a powerful Name it is
Nothing can stand against
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a powerful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What A Beautiful Name - Hillsong Worship Lyrics and Chords | Worship Together



Are there verses anyone wants to examine further?


Not a fan, but I wouldn't say devils are hiding in it.
 
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