Victim Blaming

StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Okay, this is likely just a rant thread. I seem to be good at those...

I'm not naming names, but a certain member has made a thread essentially implying that women are harassed by men because of how they dress. This seems to be an unfortunately all too common mindset in Christianity(and certainly a good chunk of other religions too). I, of course, vehemently disagree with it. Women get harassed and even raped regardless of what they wear. Blaming women for the predatory behaviour of men is just another form of victim blaming and I'm sick of it. When men are sexually harassed nobody goes up to them and asks them "what were you wearing?" so why do it to women?

Additionally, if a man claims to be Christian then why is he entertaining perverse thoughts towards women he's not married to anyway? As Christians we have a responsibility to control our sinful thoughts and blaming others for our own behaviour and dictating how they behave is getting into Pharisee territory. We are only responsible for our own salvation, nobody else's. That's up to God.

/end rant
1. Now sister, I did not say that how they women dressed(or men for that matter) was the only reason they are harassed or lusted after I said it was One of the reasons, one that can easily corrected. As I have stated before we should first(both men and women) correct one problem, then afterward we can address the others. Dressing modestly is the simplest and easiest solution to the problem, not a 100% effective solution but even if it is 50% or 20% more effective then it has served a righteous purpose and was helpful. What is the harm in dressing modestly?

2. I do ask men what they were wearing if they were sexually harassed that is why I advise men to wear loose fitting clothing and long sleeves so as not to drive women to lust after them.

3. Some men cannot control their lust(the same goes for women) and looking upon the form of those who are dressed immodestly makes their lust burn even hotter.

4. I agree, first we should ask ourselves if we are doing everything in our power to stop people from lusting after us, if we can say yes to this then we have done all that we can do.
 
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JacobKStarkey

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Men have no gift or authority from scripture to counsel women on modesty.

Men, not women, are responsible for how the treat women.

To say differently is incompatible virtue signaling, imo.
 
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Dave-W

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Would it be fair to say women who wear tight, revealing clothing, want the attention of men whom we know are more sexually reactive than women?
No that would not be fair. Not all women who dress in any way want men’s attention; and no, men are not necessarily more sexually reactive. That is a cultural stereotype that is not based in any kind of fact.
 
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MariaJLM

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No that would not be fair. Not all women who dress in any way want men’s attention; and no, men are not necessarily more sexually reactive. That is a cultural stereotype that is not based in any kind of fact.

Some women genuinely enjoy dressing in revealing clothing because they're proud of their bodies, not because they're lustful and want attention from men. Confidence in one's own skin can be a good thing. It's certainly better than suffering from eating disorders or something because you think you're ugly.
 
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Dave-W

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When men are sexually harassed nobody goes up to them and asks them "what were you wearing?"
Many people do not believe men can be sexually harassed.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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No that would not be fair. Not all women who dress in any way want men’s attention; and no, men are not necessarily more sexually reactive. That is a cultural stereotype that is not based in any kind of fact.

I never said all women dress in that way, only that women who dress in sexually provocative ways want the attention of men. This seems self-evident. Also I would suggest given the rate of inappropriate content usage among men when compared to women to indicate a stronger sexual drive on the part of men in general. Stereotypes exist for a reason and you haven't demonstrated what I've said is unfair only that there are exceptions, which is of course true.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Some women genuinely enjoy dressing in revealing clothing because they're proud of their bodies, not because they're lustful and want attention from men. Confidence in one's own skin can be a good thing. It's certainly better than suffering from eating disorders or something because you think you're ugly.
The Lord resists the proud(James 4:6-8, Psalm 138:6, Proverbs 8:13, 1 Peter 5:5, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 23:9, Proverbs 15:25).
 
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MariaJLM

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I never said all women dress in that way, only that women who dress in sexually provocative ways want the attention of men. This seems self-evident. Also I would suggest given the rate of inappropriate content usage among men when compared to women to indicate a stronger sexual drive on the part of men in general. Stereotypes exist for a reason and you haven't demonstrated what I've said is unfair only that there are exceptions, which is of course true.

See my above statement. Not all women who dress in revealing clothing do so for men. Many do so because they're confident with their bodies.
 
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anna ~ grace

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There is, I think, some responsibility on both sides. Women should be aware of their clothing and make modest clothing choices, be careful in public and at home, and generally, be aware that men can and often do, sadly, misread casual friendliness as flirting. They just do.

Men should be respectful, treat women as sisters and daughters, take "no" for an answer, and restrain themselves inwardly, vebally, and behaviorally. That would help. I know I'm going to get flack for this.... but both sides of this problem need to use wisdom, and care.
 
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MariaJLM

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The Lord resists the proud(James 4:6-8, Psalm 138:6, Proverbs 8:13, 1 Peter 5:5, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 23:9, Proverbs 15:25).

And I never said pride was a good thing. I'm just giving the reasoning for the other side.
 
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Romans 8

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There are some extremes and the attire worn today is pushing the envelope. Scripture says the following:

1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

I think it's fair to say that most women who dress sexy are looking for attention. I think that they only complain about guys looking at them if the guy is not attractive. If the guy is attractive they twirl their hair and later tell their girlfriends all about it.

For guys, I think statistics would indicate that we have a stronger libido in general. We can find evidence for this throughout nature. It would be annoying for women I can understand but, most of the good looking women in western society love to show their assets. Well, if you are going to open the blinds, be prepared for eyes to look I suppose.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Since libido is a foundation energy for witchcraft. It may be a good reason to not cultivate an atmosphere that reinforces this pattern of the world .. you know for either gender and eunuchs alike.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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in the beginning of the bible, the first humans were cast out of paradise immediately after they started blaming one another. In a sense, assigning blame is never actually reflecting what truth is, since God wouldn't tolerate it in the beginning ... why would he tolerate it now?

Of course we all have the latitude to do whatever we want here ... but sometimes it is good to think about how you act affects others.

in any argument, i tend to represent a third perspective in that I need to deal with all the emotional baggage created by both parties in synergy. It's always such a pain when I get into an argument, and I also experience this "third perspective" alongside my desire to be right ... but I guess I can also see the humour in it as well.

God's perspective of course, is so much better than any of ours. I'm sure that will come clear any day now.
 
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Tigger45

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Although we should all make wise decisions because of the element of criminal intent that doesn’t excuse the criminal response.
 
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Romans 8

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in the beginning of the bible, the first humans were cast out of paradise immediately after they started blaming one another. In a sense, assigning blame is never actually reflecting what truth is, since God wouldn't tolerate it in the beginning ... why would he tolerate it now?

They were cast out for rebellion. They sinned. Nothing to do with blame.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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They were cast out for rebellion. They sinned. Nothing to do with blame.
9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 ¶ And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The way I read it is, God asked them what was going on.

Adam Blamed the Woman who would later be named Eve, Eve blamed the Snake, then God cast them out after advising them what the consequences of their sin was.

The same thing will happen when God opens up all the books in the judgment.

So I understand that you would like to really really believe that blaming had nothing to do with it, but it's right there, in the bible. Blame, then expulsion from the place where God is.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This is kind of why James teaches us to judge with mercy,

part of our redemption is restoring us from one of the oldest patterns of the world, blaming, and shifting blame thinking this puts us in the clear, and replacing it with something more "Jesus."
 
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Romans 8

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Adam Blamed the Woman who would later be named Eve, Eve blamed the Snake, then God cast them out after advising them what the consequences of their sin was.

The same thing will happen when God opens up all the books in the judgment.

So I understand that you would like to really really believe that blaming had nothing to do with it, but it's right there, in the bible. Blame, then expulsion from the place where God is.

Yes, I know the story, but the sin was their rebellion. They did not obey God. Obeying God is like the opposite of sin.
 
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Romans 8

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This is kind of why James teaches us to judge with mercy,

part of our redemption is restoring us from one of the oldest patterns of the world, blaming, and shifting blame thinking this puts us in the clear, and replacing it with something more "Jesus."

I'm not saying that blaming is ok, if it's true. In this case it was. The bible calls it bearing false witness when it's untrue.
 
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