THE ABSURDITY OF FREE WILL !!

iamlamad said:

By grace are we saved - THROUGH FAITH.

Click to expand...

And who is it that gives you the faith to believe?

God Bless

Till all are one.

iamlamad said:

So what you are really saying is, "For God so loved only part of the world, that He sent His only begotten Son, that only those whom He predestined should believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Click to expand...

No, that is what Arminianism says.

Have you ever took the time to see what the doctrine of "predestination" ACTUALLY teaches?

Evidently not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

John tower said:

John Tower

Click to expand...

Have you considered that you might be misunderstanding that passage?

Lost4words said:

We can choose Heaven or Hell by our lives.

Click to expand...

Can't find that verse?
Guide me please.
MB

Mountainmanbob said:

Can't find that verse?
Guide me please.
MB

Click to expand...

Common sense. You are good = heaven. You are evil = hell.

Lost4words said:

Common sense. You are good = heaven. You are evil = hell.

Click to expand...

Probably more like if one's Father is God = heaven.

If one's father is the devil = hell.

Good people don't go to heaven actually the Bible says not one is good let us stick to the Bible now please!

M-Bob

Mountainmanbob said:

Probably more like if one's Father is God = heaven.

If one's father is the devil = hell.

Good people don't go to heaven actually the Bible says not one is good let us stick to the Bible now please!

M-Bob

Click to expand...

Interpretation

Lost4words said:

Interpretation

Click to expand...

No.

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:" -Mt 19:17 (KJV)

Unless you insist that was only "Jesus' interpretation".

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

No.

"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:" -Mt 19:17 (KJV)

Unless you insist that was only "Jesus' interpretation".

God Bless

Till all are one.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate? After all God calls some people righteous.

Mountainmanbob said:

Good people don't go to heaven actually the Bible says not one is good let us stick to the Bible now please!

Click to expand...

A person must be "born again" of the Spirit of God.

That process is found below.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,




Did Adam have "free will" to eat of the forbidden fruit, or did God force him to eat it?

Did Satan have "free will" to rebel against God, or did God force Satan to do so?

.

.

Free Will Debate:


Those posting the truth will show the love of Christ.
That principle becomes painfully obvious during this debate.

Anyone who claims that those not professing their "ism" are not Christians, have turned their doctrine into a cult.

.

Oxford scholar shows how Augustine abandoned the Early Church Father's viewpoint on "Free Will".



.

Hello everyone,

So I'm looking around this forum as find this thread. Interesting. I'll be honest, I'm not a Calvinist. I have read some interesting things in this thread: from the text of John 15, to the text of 2 Peter 3. One of assertions made by both Calvinists and Armenians is that man must have EITHER libertarian free will, or no free will at all ... this is a false dichotomy.

Since the first text was John 15, let's look at that text:

15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John KJV

As we consider John 15: 16 I first need to emphasize the fact that Calvinists use this verse (as well as many others) to support their position that God chooses who will, and who will not be saved. As we look at Scripure with the intent to support our theological positions, we must consider things such as context, who was speaking, and who was being spoken to.

Let’s look at those three things with John. 15: 16. 1) Context: John 13 – 17 Jesus is with His disciples in the upper room, just prior to Him being taken by for the trial.

13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. John

It is at this point that Judas leaves the upper room to betray Christ. Left in the upper room are the 11 remaining disciples, and Jesus Christ. 2) Who is speaking? There is no debate that Christ is doing the speaking. 3) Who is being spoken to? The 11 remaining disciples.

As I stated earlier, the Calvinistic view is that Jesus here tells His disciples that He has chosen them for salvation; and that they did not choose Him as Saviour. But is this what Jesus is actually saying? The gospels bear witness that Jesus did indeed choose, and call each of His disciples. But does this mean that this choosing was ALSO for salvation. The Calvinist would say, Yes. But that assessment cannot be true. Why?

6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John

One of the verses used by Calvinists to prove “Unconditional Election” is the above verse. However, notice the following verses.

6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John

Many of those who called themselves Jesus' disciples left Him from this time. Peter says “Lord, to whom shall we go?” But interestingly Jesus says the following:

6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John

Notice the words, “Have not I chosen you twelve”. Jesus was not just referring to the 11 disciples that remained in John 13:30; He was speaking about ALL 12 of the disciples, INCLUDING Judas Iscariot. This very clearly proves that when Jesus said He chose the disciples, He did not mean that He chose them for salvation; because we know Judas Iscariot was NOT saved. Jesus chose the 12 for a purpose, each of the 12 had a purpose, including Judas Iscariot. But what Jesus did not choose them for was salvation; that is the main thing that must be understood about this “choosing”. In my next comment I will look at the custom that really shows this from a unique perspective.

John 15:16 Part 2

The Custom

In order to get the real significance of this text, we must first have a basic understanding of the “disciple and master”; or more accurately, the “Talmid and Rabbi”. (Talmid is the singular, while Talmidim is the plural.)

In ancient times (Bible times), all Jewish children attended Beth Sefer, (elementary school) at about age 5. This schooling focused on 1) The Torah; and 2) trade of the Rabbi (yes, most rabbis had a trade … including Jesus). This education lasted until about the age of 13. The best of the boys were then often advanced to the Beth Midrash (secondary school … while still learning their trade). It is at this point that this becomes a bit more interesting. When a boy would reach the age of about 18 – 20, if he felt the call of God to become a Rabbi, he would then seek permission from the Rabbi he wanted to become like, to become one of the Rabbis's Talmid. The Rabbi would then either accept, or reject the request. It was the responsibility of the Talmid (student apprentice), to provide for himself while learning from his Master. Once the Rabbi felt the Talmid was ready, he, and he alone would allow the Talmid to become a Rabbi … who would likewise teach other Talmidim.

Why is this important to understand in relation to John 15:16? When the boy decided to be a Rabbi, he had to carefully choose which Rabbi to follow while being a Talmid. Some Rabbis were more literal, while others had a more 'spiritual’ view of Torah. How you believed would more than likely determine how you would choose your Rabbi. But the choice was first, and foremost by the student of his Master.
Now let us first look at John

15:16 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John

Now let’s look at a few Scripures:

4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. Matthew

Notice, Jesus is walking along and sees Peter and Andrew his brother. Then He called them to be His Talmidim … and “they straightway left their nets, and followed him”. Does this sound like the normal method of the students finding a Rabbi to teach them? No.

Let’s keep going … 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him. Matthew

Hmmmmm …

2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. Mark

Okay, does anyone see a pattern here? Jesus has turned the method of getting Talmidim on its head. Rather than the Talmidim seeking, and choosing the Rabbi; Jesus the Rabbi is seeking, and choosing His Talmidim!!! What does this mean?

First, let's be clear. God chooses us, and calls us for His purpose, not ours. This was NOT a call to salvation, it was a call to SERVICE. Now remember, when a boy sought out a Rabbi, the boy would have to support himself (with his trade), while being Talmid of his Master. Why? Because the student sought the master. But NOW Jesus has sought His Talmid, making HIM responsible for ALL of their provision. Ordinarily the student would look for particular qualities in a Rabbi. But Jesus says, I have all you need to be my Talmidim!!!

Here in John 15:16 Jesus is near the end of His earthly ministry, and is telling His Talmidim … remember, you didn’t choose me (the normal method), rather, I have chosen, and taught you. You are now ready to “go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you”. This is like the sergeant leading his men into battle. He gives them the message of encouragement that he has trained them, and they have everything they need to be conquerors. Yes, we can apply this to us today … Jesus is the Master Rabbi, and we are His Talmidim … and He is there for us always!!! So you see, this text has NOTHING to do with God choosing us for salvation.

Dr. Jack said:

As we consider John 15: 16 I first need to emphasize the fact that Calvinists use this verse (as well as many others) to support their position that God chooses who will, and who will not be saved.

Click to expand...

Not that I'm aware of.

It might be used as a basis for "election".

Could you supply quotes from John Calvin's "Institutes" to support that?

God Bless

Till all are one.

John tower said:

John 15(16): YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I have chosen you : Christ speaking .

Click to expand...

To the apostles, who he chose to be apostles. Context is key.

DeaconDean said:

Not that I'm aware of.

It might be used as a basis for "election".

Could you supply quotes from John Calvin's "Institutes" to support that?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Click to expand...

Honestly Dean, it's been a while since I've read the "Institutes". I do however have a link to the site of a well established Calvinist who references John 15:16 [but I chose you] as a proof text of election.

Do we choose God or does God choose us? | CARM.org

The following is an excerpt from that site:

"Within Christian theology, there are different perspectives that deal with the issue of election, predestination, and our free will. I won't get into these here because it can be quite lengthy. But to be elected means to be chosen by God (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). That is what "election" means. Therefore, we find such verses as Ephesians 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him." So, God definitely chooses us for salvation. Please consider the following scriptures. John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Unfortunately, when I 'cut and pasted' this, it did not carry the 'underline' placed under the words, "but I chose you". (I'm taking it for granted this was done by Matt to emphasize those words.)

Dr. Jack said:

So, God definitely chooses us for salvation. Please consider the following scriptures. John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Click to expand...

But John 15:16 is obviously to the apostles who he chose to be apostles, and has nothing to do with choosing to salvation as such. That they should bear fruit and their fruit should remain is referring to their converts is fairly obvious as well. Its similar to a few other "I chose you" passages in John, all about the apostles, as some of the earlier ones show.

John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" -- apostles only

John 13:18 "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." -- apostles only

Its the same with John 15:16 and John 15:19.

Dr. Jack said:

Honestly Dean, it's been a while since I've read the "Institutes". I do however have a link to the site of a well established Calvinist who references John 15:16 [but I chose you] as a proof text of election.

Do we choose God or does God choose us? | CARM.org

The following is an excerpt from that site:

"Within Christian theology, there are different perspectives that deal with the issue of election, predestination, and our free will. I won't get into these here because it can be quite lengthy. But to be elected means to be chosen by God (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). That is what "election" means. Therefore, we find such verses as Ephesians 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him." So, God definitely chooses us for salvation. Please consider the following scriptures. John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Unfortunately, when I 'cut and pasted' this, it did not carry the 'underline' placed under the words, "but I chose you". (I'm taking it for granted this was done by Matt to emphasize those words.)

Click to expand...

So, you are going to take Matt Slick's words, and judge every Calvinist by them.

For your information, in Book III Chapter 21, of Calvin's "Institutes" he links "election" with "predestination".

As it was pointed out to me, "election" and "chosen" are two different Greek words.

"ἐκλεκτός,a \{ek-lek-tos'}
1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God 1a2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians"

Source

Since you directly used 2 Thess. 2:13 for one of the sources, I also cite:

"αἱρέω (haireō, 138), -ῶ: [thought by some to be akin to ἄγρα, ἀγρέω, χείρ, Eng. grip, etc.; cf. Bttm. Lexil. i. 131 — but see Curtius § 117]; to take. In the Ν. Τ. in the mid. only: fut. αἱρήσομαι; 2 aor. εἱλόμην, but G L Τ Tr WH εἱλάμην, 2 Th. ii. 13, cf. [Tdf. Proleg. p. 123; WH. App. p. 165;] W. § 13, 1 a.; B. 40 (35), see ἀπέρχομαι init.; [ptcp.ἑλόμενος, Heb. xi. 25]; to take for one’s self, to choose, prefer: Phil. i. 22; 2 Th. ii. 13; μᾶλλον foll. by inf. with ἤ (common in Attic), Heb. xi. 25. [Comp.: ἀν-, ἀφ-, δι-, ἐξ-, καθ-, περι-, προ-αιρέω.]"

Source

Now I suppose you could make an argument with 2 Thess. 2:13, but since the two Greek words don't necessarily mean the same thing, I doubt it. If you are going to go in that direction, you drift over into the area of "Hyper-Calvinism".

The difference between the two just in scripture:

ELECT

"To determine in favor of, to designate, choose or select as an object of mercy or favor, predestinated in the divine councils, one chosen or set apart, one chosen or designated by God for salvation, collectively, the saved." (Webster) . . . "THIS ELECTION IS an act of distinguishing love, of divine sovereignty, eternal, absolute and irrevocable, personal" (Cruden).

Matt. 24:22. . .. but "for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (verse 24).
Matt. 24:31. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds . . ."
Luke 18:7. "And shall not God avenge his own elect . . ."
Rom. 8:33. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?..." (Col. 3:12).
2 Tim. 2:10. ..."therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (Speaking of the elect that have not yet believed).
Titus 1:1. "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect."
1 Peter 1:2. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father ..." (2 John 13).
Isa. 45:4. "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name. I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isa. 65:9. "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains and mine elect shall inherit, and my servants shall dwell there." (verse 22).
2 John 13. "The elder unto the elect lady and her children."

CHOSEN
"Selected from a number, picked out, elect, choice" — Webster.

Matt. 20:15. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" "... for many be called but few chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
Mark 13:20. ". . . but for the elect's sake, whom he has chosen, he has shortened the days" (verses 22, 27).
John 15:16. "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you . . ." (verse 19).
Acts 9:15. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way. for he is a chosen vessel unto me . . ."
Acts 22:14. "And he said, the God of our fathers hath chosen thee .
Acts 10:41. "Not to all people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us .
1 Cor. 1:27. "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world . . ." (verses 26, 26) (speaking of the elect — Matt. 11:25).
2 Thes. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ..." (One of the greatest reasons a true Christian has for praising God).
Eph. 1:4. "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (Read the whole chapter).
1 Peter 2:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar (or purchased) people
James 2:5. ". . . Hath not God chosen the poor of this world (1 Kings 3:8, Ps. 89:3, 105:6,106:5, etc.).
Rev. 17:14. ". . . and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (verse 8) (chapter 19:9).
Psalm 33:12. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance".
John 13:18. "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen" (Rom. 16:13).
Deut. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Isa. 43:20).

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

So, you are going to take Matt Slick's words, and judge every Calvinist by them.

For your information, in Book III Chapter 21, of Calvin's "Institutes" he links "election" with "predestination".

As it was pointed out to me, "election" and "chosen" are two different Greek words.

"ἐκλεκτός,a \{ek-lek-tos'}
1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God 1a2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians"

Source

Since you directly used 2 Thess. 2:13 for one of the sources, I also cite:

"αἱρέω (haireō, 138), -ῶ: [thought by some to be akin to ἄγρα, ἀγρέω, χείρ, Eng. grip, etc.; cf. Bttm. Lexil. i. 131 — but see Curtius § 117]; to take. In the Ν. Τ. in the mid. only: fut. αἱρήσομαι; 2 aor. εἱλόμην, but G L Τ Tr WH εἱλάμην, 2 Th. ii. 13, cf. [Tdf. Proleg. p. 123; WH. App. p. 165;] W. § 13, 1 a.; B. 40 (35), see ἀπέρχομαι init.; [ptcp.ἑλόμενος, Heb. xi. 25]; to take for one’s self, to choose, prefer: Phil. i. 22; 2 Th. ii. 13; μᾶλλον foll. by inf. with ἤ (common in Attic), Heb. xi. 25. [Comp.: ἀν-, ἀφ-, δι-, ἐξ-, καθ-, περι-, προ-αιρέω.]"

Source

Now I suppose you could make an argument with 2 Thess. 2:13, but since the two Greek words don't necessarily mean the same thing, I doubt it. If you are going to go in that direction, you drift over into the area of "Hyper-Calvinism".

The difference between the two just in scripture:

ELECT

"To determine in favor of, to designate, choose or select as an object of mercy or favor, predestinated in the divine councils, one chosen or set apart, one chosen or designated by God for salvation, collectively, the saved." (Webster) . . . "THIS ELECTION IS an act of distinguishing love, of divine sovereignty, eternal, absolute and irrevocable, personal" (Cruden).

Matt. 24:22. . .. but "for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (verse 24).
Matt. 24:31. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds . . ."
Luke 18:7. "And shall not God avenge his own elect . . ."
Rom. 8:33. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?..." (Col. 3:12).
2 Tim. 2:10. ..."therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (Speaking of the elect that have not yet believed).
Titus 1:1. "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect."
1 Peter 1:2. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father ..." (2 John 13).
Isa. 45:4. "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name. I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isa. 65:9. "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains and mine elect shall inherit, and my servants shall dwell there." (verse 22).
2 John 13. "The elder unto the elect lady and her children."

CHOSEN
"Selected from a number, picked out, elect, choice" — Webster.

Matt. 20:15. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" "... for many be called but few chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
Mark 13:20. ". . . but for the elect's sake, whom he has chosen, he has shortened the days" (verses 22, 27).
John 15:16. "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you . . ." (verse 19).
Acts 9:15. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way. for he is a chosen vessel unto me . . ."
Acts 22:14. "And he said, the God of our fathers hath chosen thee .
Acts 10:41. "Not to all people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us .
1 Cor. 1:27. "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world . . ." (verses 26, 26) (speaking of the elect — Matt. 11:25).
2 Thes. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ..." (One of the greatest reasons a true Christian has for praising God).
Eph. 1:4. "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (Read the whole chapter).
1 Peter 2:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar (or purchased) people
James 2:5. ". . . Hath not God chosen the poor of this world (1 Kings 3:8, Ps. 89:3, 105:6,106:5, etc.).
Rev. 17:14. ". . . and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (verse 8) (chapter 19:9).
Psalm 33:12. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance".
John 13:18. "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen" (Rom. 16:13).
Deut. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Isa. 43:20).

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the free lesson, although it wasn't needed. Yes, there are in fact variations of Calvinism; but, the one thing all Calvinists have in common that I am aware of is that God; 1) decreed Adam to sin; 2) determined the actual details of the Garden of Eden in which Adam sinned.

This thread is specifically about "the absurdity of free will". I would like you to address how Adam sinned freely, since God decreed, and determined he would sin.