Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

You did not read the studies I sent brother.

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I looked at the website - I'm assuming by the website that you are some flavor of Seventh Day Adventist. They are outside of historical church orthodoxy. This explains your funky interpretations.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

In greek the definition of a word is derived form the context it is being used in. So a word can mean a place in heaven and a place in sheol, but only one of the definitions of the word can be used a time and it is completely dependent on the context it is being used in. It is not that sheol and heaven are the same place it is that the word means both but can only be speaking of one place at one time(to figure out which you must look at the context it is being used in).

Do you understand?

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"Paradise" does not mean "grave". I don't care what context you try to squeeze it into. It's still a potato; not a motorcycle. Your method of interpratation has no logic.

The Righterzpen said:

To say "paradise" means a place in heaven; but also "paradise" means a place in hell is like saying New York and Tokyo are the same city; because..... they have people living in them. OK.... they both may have people living in them, but how does that make them the same city when they are on opposite sides of the globe? It's a logic that has its own agenda attempted to be forced on the observer. I reject that agenda. It's not Scriptural.

Besides, no place in the Scripture do you find any part of Hades that's called "paradise". Your conclusion is still just flat out illogical. No matter how many hoops you try to jump through, you're not going to turn a potato into a motorcycle.

I can see it and anyone who's looking at this thread with just a little bit of common sense, a bit of Scripture knowledge and a bit of church history can see it too.

(Rhetorical question - How is it you miss this?)

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For example.
Gehenna has three very different definitions.
One is the grave/hell. One is the Lake of Fire. And one is a valley outisde of Jerusalem. Now all of these are called by one name/word which is Gehenna, but not all exist in the same place. To find out what place is being spoken of when the word Gehenna is being used we must look at the context it is being used in. It is the same situation with the word Paradise.
Gehenna
1st definition Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem

2nd definition a place underneath the earth,

3rd definition a place of punishment for evil.

Each definition is a different place and each is called the same name, Gehenna.

The Righterzpen said:

I looked at the website - I'm assuming by the website that you are some flavor of Seventh Day Adventist. They are outside of historical church orthodoxy. This explains your funky interpretations.

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But you did not read the study(something you accused me of doing). You can't know if something is true without studying and trying all that is being said against the word of God to see if it is in agreement.

Davidan seventh day Adventist, or Rodist, or those of the Rod.

Haramis said:

Only when someone puts artificial shackles on God and His Word. The purpose of every doctrine from God, is one that grows you spiritually closer to God. What does not grow one closer to God is butting heads with other dominations over doctrine.

If one doctrine allows a Lutheran to grow closer to God, that doctrine is working. If another doctrine allows a Pentecostal to grow closer to God, that doctrine is working. If a human wants to point out that some of the logical details of those two doctrines conflict - that person is at absolute best misunderstanding the purpose of doctrine. At worst they're acting as an agent of Satan if they use this as a point of aggression to attack their brothers and sisters in Christ to submit to their particular doctrine.

There is a world of difference between "Let me explain what Christ has revealed to me, and how I understand it" and "This is what you need to believe". We can have polar opposite views on the thousand year reign, and it's fully compatible with God's plan for each of us. Some people are more motivated by a belief that we must establish God's kingdom on Earth for Him to return. Others need the sense of immediacy of a rapture of the church. Holding any one of these views is not problematic.

Because your relationship with God is not based on a particular doctrine, but rather a doctrine tailored to suit you as an individual. And if you succeeded in brow beating someone away from what God first called them to - their doctrine would be closer to yours, but their spiritual edification would now be lacking.

Many people have dealt with the problem of living under a doctrine that does not resonate with them. Then they move to a new doctrine and grow closer to God. And this switch happens bi-directionally. People who are unhappy with Southern Baptist culture, find that Adventist culture/doctrine works for them. People who are initially Adventists find their true spiritual calling in the Presbyterian church. We don't have so many dominations because one is right and everyone else is wrong. We have them because each one appeals to different people and provides a more focused framework for them.

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Hmm, so you are saying the church which suits you best is the intended way for "your" salvation? God let's man decide which road to take to heaven??
God being a just God requires the exact same thing for salvation from everyone today, the only exception being those unable to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 Peter 4:17-18
According to scripture today there is only one path to salvation and that path will not be considered a high traffic area....
In Him

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

For example.
Gehenna has three very different definitions.
One is the grave/hell. One is the Lake of Fire. And one is a valley outisde of Jerusalem. Now all of these are called by one name/word which is Gehenna, but not all exist in the same place. To find out what place is being spoken of when the word Gehenna is being used we must look at the context it is being used in. It is the same situation with the word Paradise.
Gehenna
1st definition Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem

2nd definition a place underneath the earth,

3rd definition a place of punishment for evil.

Each definition is a different place and each is called the same name, Gehenna.

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The "Valley of Hinnom" was basically a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they burned trash.

This is I'm sure where it got it's Scriptural analogy to "the lake of fire".

No where in Scripture does it say "the lake of fire" is "under the earth"? Matter of fact; by the time anyone is "technically" confronted with the lake of fire, this earth has already been destroyed; because "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire.

Now the physical analogy of the mantel under the crust of this planet as being "molten rock" is a witness to us of the reality of the lake of fire. But it is not the lake of fire.

The other Hebrew word "Sheol" which is "holding place for the dead"; is not the valley of Hinnom either though. Again we know this because "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

But you did not read the study(something you accused me of doing). You can't know if something is true without studying and trying all that is being said against the word of God to see if it is in agreement.

Davidan seventh day Adventist, or Rodist, or those of the Rod.

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I can deduce well enough from this conversation that what you are being taught is not Scripturally based. Therefore i do not feel the need to read it because it would not be Scriptural either.

The Righterzpen said:

The "Valley of Hinnom" was basically a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they burned trash.

This is I'm sure where it got it's Scriptural analogy to "the lake of fire".

No where in Scripture does it say "the lake of fire" is "under the earth"? Matter of fact; by the time anyone is "technically" confronted with the lake of fire, this earth has already been destroyed; because "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire.

Now the physical analogy of the mantel under the crust of this planet as being "molten rock" is a witness to us of the reality of the lake of fire. But it is not the lake of fire.

The other Hebrew word "Sheol" which is "holding place for the dead"; is not the valley of Hinnom either though. Again we know this because "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire.

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Yes that is my point. Each of those places is called one name Gehenna, but none of those places are the same place just called the same name.
1067. geenna
Usage: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

The Righterzpen said:

I can deduce well enough from this conversation that what you are being taught is not Scripturally based. Therefore i do not feel the need to read it because it would not be Scriptural either.

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Well now it seems your basing your beliefs on your own personal feelings and not acting as the beans did to search daily the scriptures to find if what has been said is true.

The Righterzpen said:

The word "paradise" is used in 3 places.

Luke 23:43 "Today you will be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 In this passage Paul is recounting meeting someone who'd been to "paradise". In this passage it tells us specifically that "paradise" is in "the third heaven".

SHOW ME ANY PASSAGE THAT STATES HADES IS IN THE 3RD HEAVEN!

Revelation 2:7 This passage states that the tree of life is in paradise.

"Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are not the same place. I don't care what the Jews thought. The Scriptures disagree with them!

So, if you are still going to argue that "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are the same place; you are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

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What is your take on the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
It seems that Lazarus is in "Abraham's bosom". But it is described as literal. Abraham is having a discussion with the Rich man who is in torment, while Lazarus is comforted.

The Righterzpen said:

"It is finished." John 19:30. There's the verse that tells you Jesus went to Hades before He died. He wouldn't declare "it is finished" if it wasn't finished.

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Well, you just showed your failure to understand what Jesus was saying. This has nothing to do with Hades. And it sure doesn't indicate that He went there before physical death. His statement was about paying the penalty for the sins of the world. We know He went to Hades after He died.

OK, I showed you a verse, now show me a verse that says He went to hades after He died.

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1 Pete 3:19 - After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

Proof positive that after His death, and then being made alive, He went to Tartarus and preached to imprisoned spirits.

If those who will be cast into the lake of fire to atone for their own sin, do so as whole individuals, than how would Jesus not atone for the sin of believers as a whole individual?

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You also misunderstand why people will be cast into the lake of fire. Don't you know that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world?

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So your premise is faulty. Because He atoned for the sins of everyone, the ONLY REASON for ending up in the lake of fire is for not having eternal life.

Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Real simple.

OK - I produced one verse! Do you believe me now? LOL

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That one verse does not support your view.

P.S. - i'm still waiting on a verse that proves Hades is in the 3rd heaven.

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I never said it did.

Saint Steven said:

You love to complicate matters. Why?

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Rather, it seems you love to misunderstand a lot.

If you don't understand what is required in order to receive eternal life, you cannot lead anyone to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

I said:
"Salvation isn't complicated, which is the subject that I'm addressing."

Saint Steven said:

It is when you try to explain it. Zzzzzzzz….

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I'll re-state how to be saved.

One must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, (Deity), who died on a cross for the sins of mankind, and gives eternal life to whever believes in Him for it.

If this is too complicated for you, I suggest you have a significant problem.

Please explain the "simplified way" to have salvation.

Saint Steven said:

Is there any other kind of faith?

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I guess you aren't aware of what lots of little children believe in regarding getting Christmas presents. hint: Sant Claus

What differentiates one kind from another?

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Simple. Object and goal.

That's what I don't get.

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I'm sorry you aren't aware of what faith requires, regardless of the kind.

You say "saving faith", as opposed to what?

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How about "non-saving faith".

Such as:

Believing in Santa Claus for eternal life.

Believing in Santa Claus for Christmas presents.

Believing in the tooth fairy for money.

Need I continue?

Oh, how about these:

Believing in Christ for more money.

Believing in Christ for a better job.

Believing in Christ for a bigger house.

Saint Steven said:

I'm not denying anything.
Does that give you the right to question my salvation?

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Where have I questioned your salvation?

Let's not be so dramatic.

But anyone who doesn't understand how to be saved can't be saved.

Please explain how someone who doesn't understand what is required to be saved can be saved.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Anyone who denies these facts is irrational.

The Bible frequently speaks of "believe IN Christ" or "faith in Christ". Did you notice the word "in"? That demands an object.

And if you don't understand that faith requires a goal or purpose for faith, then I guess there's no use in further discussion.

Saint Steven said:

I recommend you switch to decaf.

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How does your response have any relevance to my comment??

What you are showing, and quite clearly, is that you don't know what's required to be saved, to receive eternal life.

Saint Steven said:

The topic is whether a person needs doctrine to be saved.
You have gone off in a different direction.

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Oh, no I haven't. You're the one who challenged my explanation of saving faith. And you still don't seem to get it or even understand it.

Well, if that, specifically, is the topic, it's bogus, because there are a whole lot of doctrines in the Bible. And NONE will lead to salvation, except the doctrine of salvation.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.

Saint Steven said:

Here you go.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

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If you would only actually read what I posted, you would have seen that I asked about verses BEFORE He died.

So, where in v.8-10 did you find any indication that He went to Hades before He died, because I just don't see any.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Your assumption is incorrect. When faced with a statement, one either believes the statement or doesn't believe the statement. In the case of not comprehending the statement, then they can't believe what they don't comprehend.

Oldmantook said:

Unfortunately you make a big deal of things but quite ironically are still unlearned regarding the fundamentals of salvation.

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If you are correct, then God did an extremely poor job of communicating how to be saved.

Do you not realize just how absurd that is?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Each of these 3 verses states both the object and goal of "saving faith", or how to be saved.

And I think how to be saved IS a very BIG DEAL. Sorry you seem not to.

The thief believed what he comprehended at the time of his death so he was saved. He believed and was obedient unto death.

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Re-read the context. There is nothing about being obedient. But nice try.

He understood who Jesus was; the Messiah, the hope of Israel. He knew He was going to His kingdom and wanted to be remembered there, demonstrating his trust in the Messiah.

But contrary to your claim, it does take effort to believe because the scriptures never limit belief to cognitive belief only.

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Yes it does. Your claim to the contrary doesn't make it so. Just count these verses and then show me the ones that add anything beyond belief:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Even the demons believe but are not saved.

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You've got to ask yourself: what did they believe, actually? That "God is One", or monotheism, which was unique to the Jews of that time.

Now, is belief in monotheism saving faith? Of course not. If so, then every OT JEW was saved, which is absurd.

The scriptures teach belief as demonstrated by obedience.

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No, Scripture teaches belief that should be demonstrated by obedience.

Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8

To believe is to obey God.

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No, to believe is to trust. Look it up in any lexicon.

Two sides of the same coin. One cannot say that he/she truly believes unto salvation and yet remains disobedient demonstrating no repentance in their lives.

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The key to saving faith is trust, which is salvation by grace. AFTER that, the saved believer is commanded to be obedient, holy and blameless.

Thus belief requires effort because one must obey God. Comprende?

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No comprendo. Beause you are in error.

Saint Steven said:

What is your take on the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
It seems that Lazarus is in "Abraham's bosom". But it is described as literal. Abraham is having a discussion with the Rich man who is in torment, while Lazarus is comforted.

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I agree with you "Abraham's bosom" was a literal place. "Remnants" of what it had been probably still exist in the realm we can't see. It was probably "part of Hades". That does make some sense in the order of time Jesus is telling the story. I would not call the story a "parable" because it appears to be explaining something in a real realm people on earth can not see.

We get a lot of "insider glimpses" to things like this in the Scripture. A lot of the book of Revelation I believe is describing things that are literal and real, but are not visible to us in the material world because they are happening in the domain of the spirit world. Thus also describing to us how the spirit world was impacted by the atonement.

Now Revelation does use some "parabolic" language to describe these events to us; like depicting Jesus as a rider on a horse leading an army in a battle. That was a very real event to the spirit entities and it appears to me we have two places in the chronology of human time that's being shown to us. We have events in the time line of this created universe that are related to the atonement and we have depictions of the destruction of the cosmos at the end of time. The glimpses we have into this spirit realm begin with the atonement and end with the destruction of the cosmos.

The book of Revelation is confusing because it's chapters are topically relational to each other and not wholly chronological. Revelation tends to give us one sequence of events in one set of pictorial depictions, and then repeat the sequence with a different set of (yet often related) pictures. Why it does that - I aint got the foggiest clue!

It appears to be showing us different aspects of the same set of events though. Kind of like a master battle plan for say - WWII. You have the "birds eye view" of a huge event; but than you go from "here's what the Americans are doing", to "here's what the Germans are doing", to "the Russians", "the Japanese" etc. So, if you go from point A to B to C etc. They all may look like separate events; but in reality you're looking at different parts played out in one ginormous single event.

So, after going back and reading Luke 16 again. I have a confession to make. I realize now the rich man was talking to Abraham. From what I'd recollected, I'd thought he was talking to Lazarus. So yes, I'm guilty of not paying close enough attention to the passage there.

So, moving on from my error there:

Verse 26 of Luke 16 talks about a "gulf" between them. It's an unusual "obsolete" form of a word that apparently in Classical Greek means "chasm". It's a large "space" that is't crossable.

Still there is no Scriptural evidence that "Abraham's bosom" is "paradise". Given the theory that it's part of Hades, it can't be. Because again, like I said; what we know of "paradise" in Scripture is that the tree of life is there and it's in "the 3rd heaven".

Now unless "Abraham's bosom" isn't part of Hades? Which I suppose is theoretically possible; although I don't believe that is the case. If it is the case though, (that "Abraham's bosom" is not part of Hades) It still seems apparent to me that it is not the same place as "paradise".

I draw this conclusion because, looking at Revelation and the "souls under the alter", and the people who appear in heaven who "came out of great tribulation". Note, they were not in heaven before; so "Abraham's bosom" can not be in heaven. (Those are souls coming out of "great tribulation", not bodies. Other places in Revelation tell us this.) Jesus physically ascending to heaven 40 days post resurrection. Jesus saying "I go to prepare a place for you". "I will come and receive you, that were I am, there you will be also." (John 14:2&3) Obviously if Jesus is now in heaven, so would be deceased saints.

Taking all these passages together. I come to the conclusion that "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are two different places. Both of "Abraham's bosom" and "Hades" though being "earth bound locals" so to speak. (I.E. being part of this created universe; separate from God's domain in heaven.)

1 Peter 3:19 describes it as "preaching to spirits in prison". Now if we look at Ephesians 1 which says that those predestine unto salvation were predestine from the foundations of the world; and of Jesus "His soul was not left in hell". It's a valid question - what prison is He preaching to and what does this "preaching" consist of? Is He "preaching" to those in "Abraham's bosom", or is He "preaching" to those who are eternally condemned in the "lower Hades"? Or is He "preaching" to both?

Psalm 86:13 says "You have delivered my soul from the lowest hell." So as someone atoning for sin Himself; it would make sense that THAT is the hell Jesus's soul ended up in. This causes a cosmic consternation, because now there is a "non sinner" in among those sentenced to pay the wages of their sin.

Now the wrath of God is described as a state of existence where the presence of God is conspicuously absent. This is why Jesus says to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. (He uses the word "Geenna" here.) Matthew 10:28. We know being forsaken by God is an aspect of the atonement. And it says Jesus "tread the winepress of the wrath of God alone". Isaiah 63:3 and Revelation 19:15. Jesus at this point in time is the only one who has faced that wrath.

So here is the soul of this non sinner, in among those sentenced to condemnation; who's body is still physically alive, yet He's now actually in a state of being outside of the presence of God in both body and soul. God is righteous and this is not suppose to happen. And so thus the entire cosmos; all in both heaven and earth are in this extreme distress because if this Godman is not delivered. We are all lost!

So what is Jesus "preaching"? There are several psalms that speak of sorrows of hell. Psalm 116:3, Psalm 18:5, Jonah 2:2 talks about crying out of the belly of hell. He's crying unto God to honor the fact that He has not sinned and accept His willingness to be destroyed as atonement for those who have. God being a righteous entity can not leave his Son "strewn across hell" Psalm 139 describes it as. The Father is satisfied with the sacrifice that the Son is willing to literally be destroyed and allows this to happen to himself in order to break the power of the evil that flooded into the cosmos and left everything in this state of sinful degradation. There is silence in heaven because all of the universe is waiting to see what will happen to Him. THAT was the "great tribulation"!

So once He accomplishes this. He gets all that He came for. His Divinity is torn from his humanity. He dies. His soul is released from Hades. His spirit from his body. Soul and spirit enter heaven. All He purchased who've already died follow. His body goes into the grave. After the resurrection Matthew 27:52-54 says "Many bodies of the saints come out of the graves after His resurrection...." Here apparently is a "pre game" of the final resurrection. And now access to heaven is open for those who've been redeemed.

That's my take on the story of the rich man and Lazarus.