eternal death

eleos1954 said:

"If 'the second death' is the ultimate punishment for sin and it means annihilation, and since Jesus bore the full penalty for sin in his death, then why was Jesus not annihilated? "

Because Jesus was sinless (we are not) He did not suffer the 2nd death, He was resurrected (just like we will be one day). The shedding of His perfect blood satisfied as the wages of sin is death. His perfect blood shed defeated death (2nd death) Those in Christ will be presented though Him as sinless because He was sinless and thus we will not experience the 2nd death either.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Yes, "he who knew no sin was counted as sin in order that we might become the righteousness of God." So he knew no sin.

...
and when Gods plan is totally completed death will be no more.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Hell is the grave and all wait there until His return and then the 1st resurrection happens.

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).

“I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

The devil himself will be reduced to ashes as well ... and be no more.

"I am not going to take the time to explain every Scripture that you posted in order to validate your opinion of "Annialation of the Soul", but I will say that not a single Scripture supports your opinion."

I provided scripture ... yet you don't want to address it? ok LOL

Click to expand...

Agreed on 2 Corth. 5:21. That is Bible 101 but it has nothing to do with the Annialation of the body or soul.

You are also correct on Revelation 21:4. The believers of Jesus Christ will certainly experience that fact. Again that is Bible 101.

You said then...........
"Hell is the grave and all wait there until His return and then the 1st resurrection happens."

Now that I have to disagree with. That is certainly Jewish theology as well as several non-Christian denominations, such as the Jehovah Witnesses but it is NOT Biblical in any way.

The grave is where the body goes upon death. However, "HELL" is the place where the spirit of the wicked lost go waiting then on the SECOND Resurrection.

The resurrection of the human body from the grave is clearly taught throughout the God’s Word. Job, the oldest of the patriarchs, said in Job 19:25-26...………..
“For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God”.

It is clearly evident that Job was firm in his belief in the resurrection of his body and a future life beyond the grave.

David was confident of a future life. He said in Psalms 16:9...…..
“My flesh also shall rest in hope”.

Then he said in Psalms 17:15...….
“I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness”.

These words of the man of God refute the erroneous teaching that the resurrection refers to the spirit of man, and not to his body. Neither the soul nor the spirit of man dies, but it is his body which dies and is buried. Therefore it must be the body that is raised from the dead, and not the soul or spirit.

If that is the case and it is certainly what the Scriptures say, do we just pretend that they are not in the Bible and say that the grave is HELL??????

Then do you simply ignore the words of the Master the Lord Jesus who when here upon earth, taught that all men who die will be raised again at some future date.

John 5:28-29...………….
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth . . .”

Again, with all due respect to you and please understand that I am not looking to argue with anyone, but many people, among them some Christians, and it seems you as well, have been taught to believe that there is only one “general” resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world.

This is a serious error which has robbed many believers of joy and victory in this life. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we taught that the bodies of all men will be raised at the same time. It is true that all the dead will be raised and brought into judgment, but neither the time, the place, nor the judgments are the same.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between a first and a second resurrection.

John 5:28-29...………..
". . . All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

When men are raised, not all will be raised at the same time nor in the same condition.

There will be two resurrections for two classes of men.

1).
One will be raised to eternal life and immortality.
2).
while the other will be raised to condemnation and banishment from the presence of the Lord.

There is a “resurrection of life” and a “resurrection of damnation.”

Luke 14:14...…….....
"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just".

There is, then, a “resurrection of the just,” and since “all shall come forth,” there must of necessity be a resurrection of the unjust. Since the dead in Christ shall rise first, the implication is that the dead out of Christ (or without Christ) will be raised afterwards.

Luke makes no mention in the above passage about a resurrection of the unsaved.

Indeed the unsaved shall be raised, but not for a considerable length of time after the saved have been raised.

When Paul testified before Felix, he said in Acts 24:15......
“that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust”.

The Apostle John makes a clear distinction between the two. He speaks of the redeemed who “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4-5).

Now you said you posted Scripture. WHat do you now do with those Scriptures which clearly refute the false teaching of Annialiationism??????

eleos1954 said:

"If 'the second death' is the ultimate punishment for sin and it means annihilation, and since Jesus bore the full penalty for sin in his death, then why was Jesus not annihilated? "

Because Jesus was sinless (we are not) He did not suffer the 2nd death, He was resurrected (just like we will be one day). The shedding of His perfect blood satisfied as the wages of sin is death. His perfect blood shed defeated death (2nd death) Those in Christ will be presented though Him as sinless because He was sinless and thus we will not experience the 2nd death either.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Yes, "he who knew no sin was counted as sin in order that we might become the righteousness of God." So he knew no sin.

...
and when Gods plan is totally completed death will be no more.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Hell is the grave and all wait there until His return and then the 1st resurrection happens.

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).

“I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

The devil himself will be reduced to ashes as well ... and be no more.

"I am not going to take the time to explain every Scripture that you posted in order to validate your opinion of "Annialation of the Soul", but I will say that not a single Scripture supports your opinion."

I provided scripture ... yet you don't want to address it? ok LOL

Click to expand...

You said...……………
"I provided scripture ... yet you don't want to address it? ok LOL ".

It is not that I did not want to address the Scriptures you posted, it is just that none of them when considered CONTEXTUALLY say what you believe they say about Annialation.

For example: you used Ezekiel 28:18-19 to say that Satan will be "Reduced to ashes....".

That is a complete misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

In proper CONTEXT, the chapter is about the King of Tyre who Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others.

But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal incarceration, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and ultimately by Alexander the Great of Greece.

You said that Satan would be REDUCED TO ASHES.

But the Bible says something totally different in Revelation 20:10...…..
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Do you read over that verse, or do you ignore it or have you removed it from your Bible?

Major1 said:

You said...……………
"I provided scripture ... yet you don't want to address it? ok LOL ".

It is not that I did not want to address the Scriptures you posted, it is just that none of them when considered CONTEXTUALLY say what you believe they say about Annialation.

For example: you used Ezekiel 28:18-19 to say that Satan will be "Reduced to ashes....".

That is a complete misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

In proper CONTEXT, the chapter is about the King of Tyre who Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others.

But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal incarceration, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and ultimately by Alexander the Great of Greece.

You said that Satan would be REDUCED TO ASHES.

But the Bible says something totally different in Revelation 20:10...…..
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Do you read over that verse, or do you ignore it or have you removed it from your Bible?

Click to expand...

k ... well will address these one at a time

Ezekiel 28

Verses 1-10 are talking about the King of Tyre of that period in time.
Verses 11-19 are obviously referring to Satan (guardian cherub)

and they both come to the same end and are comparative

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lament for the king of Tyre and tell him that this is what the Lord GOD says:

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.
Every kind of precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,a turquoise, and emerald.
Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,
prepared on the day of your creation.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for I had ordained you.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15From the day you were created
you were blameless in your ways
until wickedness was found in you.
16By the vastness of your trade,
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,
and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;

I made you a spectacle before kings.
18By the multitude of your iniquities
and the dishonesty of your trading
you have profaned your sanctuaries.

So I made fire come from within you,
and it consumed you.

I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the eyes of all who saw you.
19All the nations who know you
are appalled over you.

You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

Major1 said:

Agreed on 2 Corth. 5:21. That is Bible 101 but it has nothing to do with the Annialation of the body or soul.

You are also correct on Revelation 21:4. The believers of Jesus Christ will certainly experience that fact. Again that is Bible 101.

You said then...........
"Hell is the grave and all wait there until His return and then the 1st resurrection happens."

Now that I have to disagree with. That is certainly Jewish theology as well as several non-Christian denominations, such as the Jehovah Witnesses but it is NOT Biblical in any way.

The grave is where the body goes upon death. However, "HELL" is the place where the spirit of the wicked lost go waiting then on the SECOND Resurrection.

The resurrection of the human body from the grave is clearly taught throughout the God’s Word. Job, the oldest of the patriarchs, said in Job 19:25-26...………..
“For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God”.

It is clearly evident that Job was firm in his belief in the resurrection of his body and a future life beyond the grave.

David was confident of a future life. He said in Psalms 16:9...…..
“My flesh also shall rest in hope”.

Then he said in Psalms 17:15...….
“I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness”.

These words of the man of God refute the erroneous teaching that the resurrection refers to the spirit of man, and not to his body. Neither the soul nor the spirit of man dies, but it is his body which dies and is buried. Therefore it must be the body that is raised from the dead, and not the soul or spirit.

If that is the case and it is certainly what the Scriptures say, do we just pretend that they are not in the Bible and say that the grave is HELL??????

Then do you simply ignore the words of the Master the Lord Jesus who when here upon earth, taught that all men who die will be raised again at some future date.

John 5:28-29...………….
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth . . .”

Again, with all due respect to you and please understand that I am not looking to argue with anyone, but many people, among them some Christians, and it seems you as well, have been taught to believe that there is only one “general” resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world.

This is a serious error which has robbed many believers of joy and victory in this life. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we taught that the bodies of all men will be raised at the same time. It is true that all the dead will be raised and brought into judgment, but neither the time, the place, nor the judgments are the same.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between a first and a second resurrection.

John 5:28-29...………..
". . . All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

When men are raised, not all will be raised at the same time nor in the same condition.

There will be two resurrections for two classes of men.

1).
One will be raised to eternal life and immortality.
2).
while the other will be raised to condemnation and banishment from the presence of the Lord.

There is a “resurrection of life” and a “resurrection of damnation.”

Luke 14:14...…….....
"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just".

There is, then, a “resurrection of the just,” and since “all shall come forth,” there must of necessity be a resurrection of the unjust. Since the dead in Christ shall rise first, the implication is that the dead out of Christ (or without Christ) will be raised afterwards.

Luke makes no mention in the above passage about a resurrection of the unsaved.

Indeed the unsaved shall be raised, but not for a considerable length of time after the saved have been raised.

When Paul testified before Felix, he said in Acts 24:15......
“that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust”.

The Apostle John makes a clear distinction between the two. He speaks of the redeemed who “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4-5).

Now you said you posted Scripture. WHat do you now do with those Scriptures which clearly refute the false teaching of Annialiationism??????

Click to expand...

Major1 said:

Agreed on 2 Corth. 5:21. That is Bible 101 but it has nothing to do with the Annialation of the body or soul.

You are also correct on Revelation 21:4. The believers of Jesus Christ will certainly experience that fact. Again that is Bible 101.

You said then...........
"Hell is the grave and all wait there until His return and then the 1st resurrection happens."

Now that I have to disagree with. That is certainly Jewish theology as well as several non-Christian denominations, such as the Jehovah Witnesses but it is NOT Biblical in any way.

The grave is where the body goes upon death. However, "HELL" is the place where the spirit of the wicked lost go waiting then on the SECOND Resurrection.

The resurrection of the human body from the grave is clearly taught throughout the God’s Word. Job, the oldest of the patriarchs, said in Job 19:25-26...………..
“For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God”.

It is clearly evident that Job was firm in his belief in the resurrection of his body and a future life beyond the grave.

David was confident of a future life. He said in Psalms 16:9...…..
“My flesh also shall rest in hope”.

Then he said in Psalms 17:15...….
“I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness”.

These words of the man of God refute the erroneous teaching that the resurrection refers to the spirit of man, and not to his body. Neither the soul nor the spirit of man dies, but it is his body which dies and is buried. Therefore it must be the body that is raised from the dead, and not the soul or spirit.

If that is the case and it is certainly what the Scriptures say, do we just pretend that they are not in the Bible and say that the grave is HELL??????

Then do you simply ignore the words of the Master the Lord Jesus who when here upon earth, taught that all men who die will be raised again at some future date.

John 5:28-29...………….
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth . . .”

Again, with all due respect to you and please understand that I am not looking to argue with anyone, but many people, among them some Christians, and it seems you as well, have been taught to believe that there is only one “general” resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world.

This is a serious error which has robbed many believers of joy and victory in this life. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we taught that the bodies of all men will be raised at the same time. It is true that all the dead will be raised and brought into judgment, but neither the time, the place, nor the judgments are the same.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between a first and a second resurrection.

John 5:28-29...………..
". . . All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

When men are raised, not all will be raised at the same time nor in the same condition.

There will be two resurrections for two classes of men.

1).
One will be raised to eternal life and immortality.
2).
while the other will be raised to condemnation and banishment from the presence of the Lord.

There is a “resurrection of life” and a “resurrection of damnation.”

Luke 14:14...…….....
"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just".

There is, then, a “resurrection of the just,” and since “all shall come forth,” there must of necessity be a resurrection of the unjust. Since the dead in Christ shall rise first, the implication is that the dead out of Christ (or without Christ) will be raised afterwards.

Luke makes no mention in the above passage about a resurrection of the unsaved.

Indeed the unsaved shall be raised, but not for a considerable length of time after the saved have been raised.

When Paul testified before Felix, he said in Acts 24:15......
“that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust”.

The Apostle John makes a clear distinction between the two. He speaks of the redeemed who “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4-5).

Now you said you posted Scripture. WHat do you now do with those Scriptures which clearly refute the false teaching of Annialiationism??????

Click to expand...

David was confident of a future life. He said in Psalms 16:9...…..
“My flesh also shall rest in hope”. (Rest where?)

Then he said in Psalms 17:15...….
“I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness”. (Awake from where?)

John 11

11After He had said this, He (Jesus) told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Lazarus is dead ...
but I am going there to wake him up.

It's not surprising that Jesus calls death sleep because He has the power of resurrection.

Matthew 9:24

23When Jesus entered the ruler’s house, He saw the flute players and the noisy crowd. 24“Go away,”He told them. “The girl is not dead, but asleep.” And they laughed at Him.

Does Jesus not know the difference between death and sleep?

Hell and Sheol are both interpreted from greek and hebrew as the grave.

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life (1st resurrection), but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

John 5:28,29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, … (where are they when they hear His voice?)

eleos1954 said:

k ... well will address these one at a time

Ezekiel 28

Verses 1-10 are talking about the King of Tyre of that period in time.
Verses 11-19 are obviously referring to Satan (guardian cherub)

and they both come to the same end and are comparative

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lament for the king of Tyre and tell him that this is what the Lord GOD says:

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.
Every kind of precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,a turquoise, and emerald.
Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,
prepared on the day of your creation.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for I had ordained you.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15From the day you were created
you were blameless in your ways
until wickedness was found in you.
16By the vastness of your trade,
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,
and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;

I made you a spectacle before kings.
18By the multitude of your iniquities
and the dishonesty of your trading
you have profaned your sanctuaries.

So I made fire come from within you,
and it consumed you.

I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the eyes of all who saw you.
19All the nations who know you
are appalled over you.

You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

Click to expand...

But none of those Scriptures address the point you are pushing that the body is destroyed when it goes to hell.

The worst kind of Bible exegesis is the one you are doing. Just looking through the Scriptures looking for words andphrases that seem to fit what YOU want them to say.

"AND IT CONSUMED YOU".
"I REDUCED YOU TO ASHES ON THE GROUND".
AND WILL BE NO MORE".

Regardless of what the interpretation is, let it be noted that in modern versions, these verses are rendered in the past tense -- this describes something that has already happened. If anything, then, these verses show that language of permanent death/destruction can be used figuratively.

As for Ezekiel 28....From the start, a telling sign against an identification with Satan is that the equation here was made in the 3rd and 4th century AD, by church writers -- not by Jews of the OT or NT era. This does not mean it is wrong, but it does place a greater burden of proof on claimants.

Major1 said:

But none of those Scriptures address the point you are pushing that the body is destroyed when it goes to hell.

The worst kind of Bible exegesis is the one you are doing. Just looking through the Scriptures looking for words andphrases that seem to fit what YOU want them to say.

"AND IT CONSUMED YOU".
"I REDUCED YOU TO ASHES ON THE GROUND".
AND WILL BE NO MORE".

Regardless of what the interpretation is, let it be noted that in modern versions, these verses are rendered in the past tense -- this describes something that has already happened. If anything, then, these verses show that language of permanent death/destruction can be used figuratively.

As for Ezekiel 28....From the start, a telling sign against an identification with Satan is that the equation here was made in the 3rd and 4th century AD, by church writers -- not by Jews of the OT or NT era. This does not mean it is wrong, but it does place a greater burden of proof on claimants.

Click to expand...

Yeah ... well no doubt there are a lot of different beliefs out there ... and we talk about them ... and overall I think that's a good thing. No doubt you have and do study a lot ... so do I ... I used to believe some of the things you do as well ... until I really started studying hard myself and will continue to do so.

"If anything, then, these verses show that language of permanent death/destruction can be used figuratively (a lot of the bible is written that way)." Yes ... and so can "burning in" "hell" for eternity and a lot of other things ;o)

I'll be glad when the Lord returns and then there will be no doubt at all about the truth of everything ;o)

God Bless.

eleos1954 said:

Yeah ... well no doubt there are a lot of different beliefs out there ... and we talk about them ... and overall I think that's a good thing. No doubt you have and do study a lot ... so do I ... I used to believe some of the things you do as well ... until I really started studying hard myself and will continue to do so.

"If anything, then, these verses show that language of permanent death/destruction can be used figuratively (a lot of the bible is written that way)." Yes ... and so can "burning in" "hell" for eternity and a lot of other things ;o)

I'll be glad when the Lord returns and then there will be no doubt at all about the truth of everything ;o)

God Bless.

Click to expand...

I certainly do agree.

However your comment here says one very important thing......
"No matter what the Bible says or others showme correctly, MY mind in made up".

YES...….study is the key to knowledge my brother.

What I believe is what the Scriptures actually do say and what I think has nothing to do with it at all.

Allow me to show you what I mean...……...Luke 16:23-24 ACTUALLY says:
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

First, where is the rich man...…………….IN HELL!
Second, what is going on there......…..BEING IN TORMENTS!
Third, what is happening to him...…….FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME!

He is in a PLACE called HELL.
The procedure there is TORMENTS, "PLURAL-ONGOING."
He is being TORMENTED, again PLURAL-ONGOING and is in a FIRE (FLAME).

Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation.

Now allow me to say this to you with all Christian love and respect. I am probably a lot older than you are. That means I probably have more friends and loved ones in Hell than you do.

Do I like that?? NO!!!
Do I like the idea of a loved one being tormented eternally in fire? NO!!!

BUT...…..I can not change what the Bible ACTUALLY says because I do not like the thought of what it says or because I do not think that a loving God would do such a thing.

Again.....THINK! Did God bring judgment upon every living thing saving only 7 people and a boat full of animals?

Did God allow 2 million people to perish in the wilderness, saving only 2 to enter the Promised Land????

Did God kill a priest because he touched the Ark on a cart???

Did God strick down two people because they lied about their tithing?

Major1 said:

I certainly do agree.

However your comment here says one very important thing......
"No matter what the Bible says or others showme correctly, MY mind in made up".

YES...….study is the key to knowledge my brother.

What I believe is what the Scriptures actually do say and what I think has nothing to do with it at all.

Allow me to show you what I mean...……...Luke 16:23-24 ACTUALLY says:
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

First, where is the rich man...…………….IN HELL!
Second, what is going on there......…..BEING IN TORMENTS!
Third, what is happening to him...…….FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME!

He is in a PLACE called HELL.
The procedure there is TORMENTS, "PLURAL-ONGOING."
He is being TORMENTED, again PLURAL-ONGOING and is in a FIRE (FLAME).

Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation.

Now allow me to say this to you with all Christian love and respect. I am probably a lot older than you are. That means I probably have more friends and loved ones in Hell than you do.

Do I like that?? NO!!!
Do I like the idea of a loved one being tormented eternally in fire? NO!!!

BUT...…..I can not change what the Bible ACTUALLY says because I do not like the thought of what it says or because I do not think that a loving God would do such a thing.

Again.....THINK! Did God bring judgment upon every living thing saving only 7 people and a boat full of animals?

Did God allow 2 million people to perish in the wilderness, saving only 2 to enter the Promised Land????

Did God kill a priest because he touched the Ark on a cart???

Did God strick down two people because they lied about their tithing?

Click to expand...

Lazarus - I see as a parable .... evidentially you do not.

No doubt the Lord is just and so are His judgements ... and in the very end all the wicked and the earth will be destroyed and that will be His final just judgement.

Even us humans recognize that torturing people is not right.

Ezekiel 33

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death (2nd death) of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

THINK ... He has no pleasure in death but he's ok with torturing people for eternity?

So evidentially you believe when one dies (earthly death) they either go to heaven or begin burning in hell? So evidentially you believe in an "immortal soul". Nothing about us is immortal until the first resurrection.

1st Corinthians 15

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Timothy

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


Torment in Hell ... No


Psalms 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)
Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalms 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Psalms 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Psalms 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalms 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Malachi 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” (not burning in hell now) says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity.

"Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation."

eleos1954 said:

Lazarus - I see as a parable .... evidentially you do not.

No doubt the Lord is just and so are His judgements ... and in the very end all the wicked and the earth will be destroyed and that will be His final just judgement.

Even us humans recognize that torturing people is not right.

Ezekiel 33

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death (2nd death) of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

THINK ... He has no pleasure in death but he's ok with torturing people for eternity?

So evidentially you believe when one dies (earthly death) they either go to heaven or begin burning in hell? So evidentially you believe in an "immortal soul". Nothing about us is immortal until the first resurrection.

1st Corinthians 15

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Timothy

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


Torment in Hell ... No


Psalms 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)
Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalms 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Psalms 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Psalms 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalms 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Malachi 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” (not burning in hell now) says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity.

"Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation."

Click to expand...

Now consider what you just said.

"YOU" consider Luke 16 a parable".

IT is NOT A PARABEL my brother.

First, the story is never called a parable as are the others.

Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual PERSONAL name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from the actual parables in Scripture in which the characters are not named. That should be your fist clue.

You see, IF it was just a made up story and there was never such a man named LAZARUS then Jesus would be lying which is a sin and then you and me would not be saved. THINK !!!

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

Now then, what if it is a "Parable". Are you saying that because it is a "parable" it is NOT THE WORD OF GOD?????

It is Jesus Himself, the Master teacher, God in the flesh speaking and YOU are saying that for some reason it does not apply? You see what you are doing????????
Because the Word of God does not fit your thinking, YOU are trying to make it say something it does not say.

The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied.

In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

Please, do not believe me, YOU do the work and study for yourself.

eleos1954 said:

Lazarus - I see as a parable .... evidentially you do not.

No doubt the Lord is just and so are His judgements ... and in the very end all the wicked and the earth will be destroyed and that will be His final just judgement.

Even us humans recognize that torturing people is not right.

Ezekiel 33

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death (2nd death) of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

THINK ... He has no pleasure in death but he's ok with torturing people for eternity?

So evidentially you believe when one dies (earthly death) they either go to heaven or begin burning in hell? So evidentially you believe in an "immortal soul". Nothing about us is immortal until the first resurrection.

1st Corinthians 15

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Timothy

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


Torment in Hell ... No


Psalms 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)
Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalms 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Psalms 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Psalms 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalms 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Malachi 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” (not burning in hell now) says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity.

"Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation."

Click to expand...

Again...….I am saying to you that all of those Scriptures do not validate your thinking.

You are simply cherry picking the Scriptures, looking for words or phrases that fit your theology instead of accepting the Word of God as it is.

We do in fact have a loving God who wills and wants everyone to live with Him in heaven.

But there are many, many Scriptures that say that the lost man must come to God through Jesus Christ or be condemned to everlasting hell.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. .

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Acts 2:27
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

eleos1954 said:

Lazarus - I see as a parable .... evidentially you do not.

No doubt the Lord is just and so are His judgements ... and in the very end all the wicked and the earth will be destroyed and that will be His final just judgement.

Even us humans recognize that torturing people is not right.

Ezekiel 33

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death (2nd death) of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

THINK ... He has no pleasure in death but he's ok with torturing people for eternity?

So evidentially you believe when one dies (earthly death) they either go to heaven or begin burning in hell? So evidentially you believe in an "immortal soul". Nothing about us is immortal until the first resurrection.

1st Corinthians 15

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Timothy

16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


Torment in Hell ... No


Psalms 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)
Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalms 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Psalms 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Psalms 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalms 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Malachi 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” (not burning in hell now) says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity.

"Now those are the exact WORDS in the Scriptures. You can either accept them as the Word of God or you can reject them and then come up with your own explanation."

Click to expand...

I feel like I need to help your understanding a little. You are posting things which are actually not true and show your lack of Biblical understanding.


Many evolutionists, and virtually all atheists, believe that man, being a creature purely of time and chance, merely ceases to exist when physical life ends. Increasing numbers of professing Christians, though they believe the soul continues to exist for a time after death, teach the future complete annihilation of unbelievers.

It is my observation that that is wxactly what you are trying to do.

But as Christians we must be careful to build our thinking about death upon solid Biblical ground. We who are subject to death cannot define death. Only Someone who exists outside of the sphere of death can objectively define death for us. God has done that in His Word. So the critical question is this: How does God in Scripture define death?

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

Physical death is, the separation of body and soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7...……...
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it".

Spiritual death means that man, apart from salvation in Christ, is separated from God. All who are sinners in Adam died in Adam, just as all who are justified in Christ are made alive in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22). Paul speaks of the unsaved as being "alienated (Greek apellotriomenoi, estranged or shut out) from the life of God" (Ephesians 4:18).

This is true even though the unsaved person has physical life. The final state of unsaved souls cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity is called "the second death" in both Revelation chapters 20 and 21:
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."

Rev. 21:8...……….
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 14:11 says that... …..
"the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."

Now, the bottom line truth is that In neither case does the Biblical definition of death - physical or spiritual - imply or entail cessation of existence.

IT simply is just not there. What you are proposing is a figment of the imagination of men. The Jehovah Witness and 7th Day Advantist have made this a denomination teaching which is not found in the Word of God.

Major1 said:

I feel like I need to help your understanding a little. You are posting things which are actually not true and show your lack of Biblical understanding.

You said above...……….
"Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire."​

Many evolutionists, and virtually all atheists, believe that man, being a creature purely of time and chance, merely ceases to exist when physical life ends. Increasing numbers of professing Christians, though they believe the soul continues to exist for a time after death, teach the future complete annihilation of unbelievers.

It is my observation that that is wxactly what you are trying to do.

But as Christians we must be careful to build our thinking about death upon solid Biblical ground. We who are subject to death cannot define death. Only Someone who exists outside of the sphere of death can objectively define death for us. God has done that in His Word. So the critical question is this: How does God in Scripture define death?

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

Physical death is, the separation of body and soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7...……...
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it".

Spiritual death means that man, apart from salvation in Christ, is separated from God. All who are sinners in Adam died in Adam, just as all who are justified in Christ are made alive in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22). Paul speaks of the unsaved as being "alienated (Greek apellotriomenoi, estranged or shut out) from the life of God" (Ephesians 4:18).

This is true even though the unsaved person has physical life. The final state of unsaved souls cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity is called "the second death" in both Revelation chapters 20 and 21:
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."

Rev. 21:8...……….
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 14:11 says that... …..
"the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."

Now, the bottom line truth is that In neither case does the Biblical definition of death - physical or spiritual - imply or entail cessation of existence.

IT simply is just not there. What you are proposing is a figment of the imagination of men. The Jehovah Witness and 7th Day Advantist have made this a denomination teaching which is not found in the Word of God.

Click to expand...

So, Paul is a liar?

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.


Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

Back to the Lazarus parable:

Names ... what was the rich mans name?

Luke 16
26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.

What is this great chasm that no one can cross?

If literal ...

How is it that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven before Jesus? or ... if not in heaven where are they?

John 14:6

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me

Major1 said:

I feel like I need to help your understanding a little. You are posting things which are actually not true and show your lack of Biblical understanding.

You said above...……….
"Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal for the saved ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist) ... destroyed by eternal fire."​

Many evolutionists, and virtually all atheists, believe that man, being a creature purely of time and chance, merely ceases to exist when physical life ends. Increasing numbers of professing Christians, though they believe the soul continues to exist for a time after death, teach the future complete annihilation of unbelievers.

It is my observation that that is wxactly what you are trying to do.

But as Christians we must be careful to build our thinking about death upon solid Biblical ground. We who are subject to death cannot define death. Only Someone who exists outside of the sphere of death can objectively define death for us. God has done that in His Word. So the critical question is this: How does God in Scripture define death?

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

First, we need to maintain the distinction, as Scripture does, between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible speaks of the two distinctly, but they share one common characteristic. The Biblical definition of death - whether physical or spiritual - is not non-existence, but separation.

Physical death is, the separation of body and soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7...……...
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it".

Spiritual death means that man, apart from salvation in Christ, is separated from God. All who are sinners in Adam died in Adam, just as all who are justified in Christ are made alive in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22). Paul speaks of the unsaved as being "alienated (Greek apellotriomenoi, estranged or shut out) from the life of God" (Ephesians 4:18).

This is true even though the unsaved person has physical life. The final state of unsaved souls cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity is called "the second death" in both Revelation chapters 20 and 21:
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."

Rev. 21:8...……….
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 14:11 says that... …..
"the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."

Now, the bottom line truth is that In neither case does the Biblical definition of death - physical or spiritual - imply or entail cessation of existence.

IT simply is just not there. What you are proposing is a figment of the imagination of men. The Jehovah Witness and 7th Day Advantist have made this a denomination teaching which is not found in the Word of God.

Click to expand...

So, is what you are saying is that those in "hell" are not actually burning but they are spiritually separated from God and that is their punishment?

eleos1954 said:

So, is what you are saying is that those in "hell" are not actually burning but they are spiritually separated from God and that is their punishment?

Click to expand...

I said that DEATH in the Bible is seen as "Separation" from God.

The fact that they are in the torments of Hell is because of their location.

The wicked lost's spirit are in the torments side of Hell today. They are "Separated" spiritually from God and after the 1000 year rule of Christ, at the 2nd Resurrection which is the 2nd death, their body will be raised and reunited with their spirit and be cast then into the lake of fire where they be in eternal torment.

eleos1954 said:

So, Paul is a liar?

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.


Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

Back to the Lazarus parable:

Names ... what was the rich mans name?

Luke 16
26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.

What is this great chasm that no one can cross?

If literal ...

How is it that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven before Jesus? or ... if not in heaven where are they?

John 14:6

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me

Click to expand...

1 Thess. 4 that you posted is the Rapture of believers which will take place approx. 7 years before the 2nd Coming of Christ. Christ will come in the clouds and all the believers in Christ will be "Caught UP" to meet Him in the air just as Paul said. Then we will be in heaven for 7 years and return with Christ in Rev. 19 at Armageddon to watch Him put down sin and judge the wicked lost.

Now for Luke 16. The Rich man is not named is he. But "LAZARUS" is named.
And when you read the whole you also see that "ABRAHAM" is named.
Then just a verse or two later we see the name of "MOSES".

With all due respect, you are asking questions as if you had never read Luke 16.

The word translated “gulf” means chasm, or the broad, yawning space between two elevated objects. In this place it means that there is no way of passing from one to the other.

Fixed - Strengthened - made firm or immovable. It is so established that it will never be movable or passable. It will forever divide heaven and hell.

Then you asked how Abraham and Lazerus were in heaven before Jesus.

Both were in the "Paradise" side of Hell. Remember the GULF you did not know about?????

It separated the Torments side from the Paradise side of hell or as some say, "Abraham's Bosom" as seen in Luke 16:22.

Do you recall that when Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, He said to him......
"TODAY, you will be with me in PARADISE".

Paradise is where ALL the Old Test. saints spirits went to at death. When Jesus ascended, He took all of those spirits with Him as He emptied Paradise.

Furthermore, the old Apostle's Creed (Traditional English Version) has these words,

"...He, Christ, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into HELL..."

Jesus really went to Hell to taste death for every man as seen in Heb. 2:9 and to confirmed to the Old Testament people (both to the saints and the lost) that He is indeed the promised Redeemer recorded in Job. 19:25, 1 Peter 3:19.

When Jesus arose from the dead He defeated Hell and Death and become the mighty Savior to everyone who believes in Him which is told to us in Acts 2:27, 31, Heb. 2:14, John 5:24 and Heb. 7:25.

At Christ's resurrection, the Bible tells us farther that "many bodies of the [Old Testament] saints" also resurrected and went out from their graves, walked again upon this earth in Matt. 27:52-53 and eventually went to Heaven together with all the saints as Jesus transferred them from Hades to Heaven in Acts 1:11 and Ephesians 4:8-10.

I do hope that this has helped your understanding. If I can help any further, please feel free to ask.

Blessing to you!

Major1 said:

I said that DEATH in the Bible is seen as "Separation" from God.

The fact that they are in the torments of Hell is because of their location.

The wicked lost's spirit are in the torments side of Hell today. They are "Separated" spiritually from God and after the 1000 year rule of Christ, at the 2nd Resurrection which is the 2nd death, their body will be raised and reunited with their spirit and be cast then into the lake of fire where they be in eternal torment.

Click to expand...

ok ... so the lost ... since the fall of mankind are in hell and are burning in torment? Physically or spiritually? What, is happening to the lost (spirit and bodily) in hell?

eleos1954 said:

ok ... so the lost ... since the fall of mankind are in hell and are burning in torment? Physically or spiritually? What, is happening to the lost (spirit and bodily) in hell?

Click to expand...

Good question and I am pleased that you asked me. I must tell you that I wish I was wrong. I do not like talking about hell simply because I have many family and friends who are there today. That thought kills me every time I think about it. But Bible truth is TRUTH and reality lives in the truth of God's Word.

IF we are to believe what you think which is that the body and spirt of the wicked lost will be consumed when they feel the fires of hell, then we will have to remove all the Scriptures from the Bible that says the opposite. Such as Revelation 9:2 & 6...…….
(2) “And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

I really do not know what to say to you if you read those Scriptures and still believe in Annialtionism.

Physically, their bodies are in the grave just as are the bodies of believers. BOTH are waiting for Resurrection, the 1st unto everlasting life in heaven with God and the 2nd unto everlasting death in hell with Satan.

2 Peter 2:4...……..
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Hell "…

”Luke 16:22,23...….
“...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in Hell (Hades)...”

Matthew 23:33,...…..
“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell ?”

Now you are free to reject all the Scriptures and believe as you wish but IMO the Scripotures are crystal clear.

When an unsaved person dies he goes directly to Hades (Hell) which is the place of torment. The Bible makes it clear that all the unsaved dead go the Hell and remain there until they are resurrected to appear before God at the Great White Throne Judgment which is the 2nd Death.

In Revelation 20:13 we read,.....
“...death (the grave) and Hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their worth. "

Hades was the place for the unsaved dead in the time of Christ and still is. The Bible passage that best presents a picture of Hades (Hell) is Luke 16:19-31...……...Now whether you think it is a parable or not is NOT THE ISSUE. The fact is that it is in the Scriptures...…..PEROID!

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said to Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. "

Major1 said:

But none of those Scriptures address the point you are pushing that the body is destroyed when it goes to hell.

The worst kind of Bible exegesis is the one you are doing. Just looking through the Scriptures looking for words andphrases that seem to fit what YOU want them to say.

"AND IT CONSUMED YOU".
"I REDUCED YOU TO ASHES ON THE GROUND".
AND WILL BE NO MORE".

Regardless of what the interpretation is, let it be noted that in modern versions, these verses are rendered in the past tense -- this describes something that has already happened. If anything, then, these verses show that language of permanent death/destruction can be used figuratively.

Click to expand...

You're quoting from Annihiliationism: An Unbiblical Doctrine

Not sure why you're not citing them since your post is mostly copypasta from their page.

I find it amusing that you're using Tekton (without attribution) because the writers for that website reject the idea of eternal punishment.

Major1 said:

1 Thess. 4 that you posted is the Rapture of believers which will take place approx. 7 years before the 2nd Coming of Christ. Christ will come in the clouds and all the believers in Christ will be "Caught UP" to meet Him in the air just as Paul said. Then we will be in heaven for 7 years and return with Christ in Rev. 19 at Armageddon to watch Him put down sin and judge the wicked lost.

Now for Luke 16. The Rich man is not named is he. But "LAZARUS" is named.
And when you read the whole you also see that "ABRAHAM" is named.
Then just a verse or two later we see the name of "MOSES".

With all due respect, you are asking questions as if you had never read Luke 16.

The word translated “gulf” means chasm, or the broad, yawning space between two elevated objects. In this place it means that there is no way of passing from one to the other.

Fixed - Strengthened - made firm or immovable. It is so established that it will never be movable or passable. It will forever divide heaven and hell.

Then you asked how Abraham and Lazerus were in heaven before Jesus.

Both were in the "Paradise" side of Hell. Remember the GULF you did not know about?????

It separated the Torments side from the Paradise side of hell or as some say, "Abraham's Bosom" as seen in Luke 16:22.

Do you recall that when Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, He said to him......
"TODAY, you will be with me in PARADISE".

Paradise is where ALL the Old Test. saints spirits went to at death. When Jesus ascended, He took all of those spirits with Him as He emptied Paradise.

Furthermore, the old Apostle's Creed (Traditional English Version) has these words,

"...He, Christ, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into HELL..."

Jesus really went to Hell to taste death for every man as seen in Heb. 2:9 and to confirmed to the Old Testament people (both to the saints and the lost) that He is indeed the promised Redeemer recorded in Job. 19:25, 1 Peter 3:19.

When Jesus arose from the dead He defeated Hell and Death and become the mighty Savior to everyone who believes in Him which is told to us in Acts 2:27, 31, Heb. 2:14, John 5:24 and Heb. 7:25.

At Christ's resurrection, the Bible tells us farther that "many bodies of the [Old Testament] saints" also resurrected and went out from their graves, walked again upon this earth in Matt. 27:52-53 and eventually went to Heaven together with all the saints as Jesus transferred them from Hades to Heaven in Acts 1:11 and Ephesians 4:8-10.

I do hope that this has helped your understanding. If I can help any further, please feel free to ask.

Blessing to you!

Click to expand...

Apostle's Creed - ok - no wonder we are so far apart on things ;o)

I don't go outside the Holy Bible, except looking at historical, archeology, jewish teachings/customs etc.

So thank you for your time and may the Lord bless you as well.

eleos1954 said:

Apostle's Creed - ok - no wonder we are so far apart on things ;o)

I don't go outside the Holy Bible, except looking at historical, archeology, jewish teachings/customs etc.

So thank you for your time and may the Lord bless you as well.

Click to expand...

Your choice.

However, the word “catholic” means “relating to the church universal” and was the word used in the original version of the Creed. It does not mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the church, the body of Christ, as a universal fellowship. The phrase, “He descended into hell,” was not part of the creed in its earliest form.
What is the Apostles' Creed?

Blessing to you as well.