The circumcision of Christ is water baptism: by his Spirit and in his name

Selene03

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Proponents of infant baptism assume that there were children in Cornelius’ house, Lydia’s family, the Philippian jailer’s house, and Stephanas’ house, and that the infants were baptized. Since there is no mention of infants in any of these passages, those who use these passages to justify infant baptism base their claims upon two assumptions: (1) infants were present in the households; and (2) the contexts of Acts 10 and 16 allow for the baptism of infants as part of “household baptisms.”

The context of these following verses suggest that the jailer's household were baptized by the Holy Spirit before the jailer brought Paul and Silas into his house.

Acts 16:32-34 (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition ~ NRSVCE)
32 They spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 At the same hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and his entire family were baptized without delay.
34 He brought them up into the house and set food before them; and he and his entire household rejoiced that he had become a believer in God.​

There are other examples of household conversions, whose contexts attest to the fact that, when “households” of people were baptized, infants were not baptized. When the inspired writers mentioned the so-called “household baptisms,” they said that all believers in the households were baptized. To assert otherwise is to put an unnecessary strain on the text, and to teach that which contradicts unambiguous, definitive Bible teaching (see Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37-38; Romans 10:10-11).

The fact that infants were not mentioned in "household" does not mean there were no infants. If everyone in the entire household were baptized, that means "everyone"....including any infants who were there. After all, baptism replaced circumcision.

Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ” and “the circumcision made without hands.” Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

Also, the Early Christians practiced infant baptism, and one can find those evidence in the writings of the Early Christians. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that “according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants” (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, “The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
 
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The Righterzpen

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On the contrary, a baptism of water and spirit can bring salvation, and this is why we baptize our infants. The parents speaks for them for they are responsible for bringing up their child into the Christian faith. The entire household of Cornelius was baptized with water when Peter saw that the Holy Spirit descended on the entire household. A family household consist of both children and adults.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I do not find any Scriptural support for this belief.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The Catholic Church practices both full immersion in water and sprinkling on the head. Baptism is done to remove the Original Sin passed by Adam and Eve and to incorporate the person (infant and adults) as members of the People of God.


The New Testament itself, while it does not explicitly say when (or whether) believers should have their children baptized, is not silent on the subject. Luke 18:15–16 tells us that “they were bringing even infants” to Jesus; and he himself related this to the kingdom of God: “Let the children come to me. . . for to such belongs the kingdom of God.”

When speaking of “bringing someone to Jesus,” they mean leading him to faith. But Jesus says “even infants” can be “brought” to him. The fact is, the Bible gives us no way of bringing anyone to Jesus apart from baptism. Thus Peter declared, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children” (Acts 2:38–39).

The Church baptized whole “households” (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), a term encompassing children and infants as well as servants. While these texts do not specifically mention—nor exclude—infants, the very use of the term “households” indicates an understanding of the family as a unit. Even one believing parent in a household makes the children and even the unbelieving spouse “holy” (1 Cor. 7:14). Does this mean unbelieving spouses should be baptized? Of course not. The kingdom of God is not theirs; they cannot be “brought to Christ” in their unbelief. But infants have no such impediment. The kingdom is theirs, Jesus says, and they should be brought to him; and this means baptism.

Matthew 19 & Luke 18:

There are two places in the Scripture that talk about people brining Jesus children. Luke 18 and the other passage is Matthew 19. In both passages, the context in which they are brining Him children is different.

Matthew is on the heals of a passage where Jesus is talking about eunuchs in which He speaks of Himself in this passage. The following verses are about brining Him children; some of them were actually brining these children as "an offering" is what the Greek indicates. Now what these individual parents intended by their actions I would guess varied from person to person. Some of them desired Jesus to pray for their kids and bless them. (Which He does.)

In which He rebukes the disciples for their forbidding these parents telling the disciples that "such as the Kingdom of heaven" (We come to God as little children.) Jesus qualifies this statement in Luke 18:17 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." (You neglected to quote verse 17; which explains to you what verse 16 means.)

This is not saying infants are automatically redeemed just because they are infants. That idea springs out of an "age of accountability doctrine" which is not Scriptural either. We know this on account of Romans 9 which explains of Jacob and Esau that one was elect and the other was not and this election occurred before they were born "having done good or evil".

Acts 2:

This passage you also took out of context. Peter is addressing Jews and the phrase ".... the promise is to you and your children..." is talking about the Messiah. We know this by the remainder of the verse: ".....and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." "... as many as the Lord our God shall call" is the qualifying factor. To each of us, our redemption is individual. You are not guaranteed a place in the Kingdom because your parents / parent is / are believer(s). God does not have grandchildren. All are called as individuals to "repent and believe".

Acts 16:

This is the story of the Philipiain jailor. Now if you know anything about jailors and military life in ancient Rome, you'll know that soldier's families (with the exception of service age male children) did not live on military installations. The jail would have been considered a "military installation". Soldier's families lived in the community. The jailor would have been a man in his 40's and the only family members present with him in the jail house would have been service age male children, other soldiers under his command which he'd "adopted" and slaves / servants who'd likely have been taken as prisoners in combat. There would have been no infants in the jail house; nor would his wife or daughters have been there.

Now note verse 31 Paul tells the jailor "believe and you shall be saved along with your house." The implication in the Greek is that this jailor already had family members who were believers. Paul is not saying "if you believe your household will be saved"; he is saying "if you believe you will be add unto your household who already believe." Now we know this is the proper interpretation by verse 34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Note the household is believing along with the jailor.

1 Corinthians 1:16:

Paul baptized the household. It does not specified who of the household or whether or not he'd baptized all of the household. We make an assumption here that if someone refused to be baptized, they would not force them to be baptized. That would not make sense.

1 Corinthians 7:14:

"Sanctified" and "holy" means to be "set apart" and in that context; these people are under the hearing of the gospel because there is a believer in their household. It does not mean they are redeemed. It is pretty clear by the context that the husband or wife are unbelievers. Now being under the influence of the gospel they may become believers. Jeremiah 3:13 talks about God brining "one out of a city, two out of a family" unto Zion. But just because you are a believer who's living with unbelievers, does not mean they will become believers. Some may, some may not. That is up to God's sovereign will.

So nowhere in these passages does it specifically state "baptize babies". Baptism was done upon a profession of faith. If someone has not the capacity to make that profession; you could baptize them, but that will not guarantee them a place in the Kingdom and if you don't baptize them; that will not forbid their entrance if they are one of God's elect.

No where in Scripture does it ever say baptism washes away "original sin". That is another man made doctrine.
 
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Selene03

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This biblical scripture below is the only one where Jesus mentioned to be born again. Christ said that to be born again, one must be born of water and spirit :

John 3:3-5 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[fn]”........Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

In the Holy Bible, God always does the same thing over and over. He's very consistent. Every time He creates something new, He always uses water and spirit. In Genesis, for example, when God created the Heavens and Earth, water and spirit was there on the first day of creation.

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. This was at the very beginning on the first day of creation. Then during Noah's time, God destroyed the entire Earth with water. Water signifies the death of sin but it also signifies life because Noah and his family were saved through water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The waters in the Great Flood symbolized baptism. Noah and his family went through a baptism of water and spirit. The dove that Noah sent out symbolized the Holy Spirit (See John 1:32). A new creation of people started with Noah and his family (who were the only ones left) after God destroyed the Earth.

Then there's the Israelites whom God called to be His people. The people whom He called out of Egypt were led into a desert after passing through the Red Sea, which Sacred Scripture described as Baptism.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Again, we see water and spirit as the Israelites crossed the Red Sea with a cloud over them. The whole Israelites were baptized, and who is to say there are no infants among them? The cloud is the Spirit of God over them as they passed through the Red Sea. . Pharoah's men who chased the Israelites died in the Red Sea. Again here, water signifies the death of sin, and life for Moses and the Israelites. After the crossing of the Red Sea, they became His people and He became their God just as He promised them in Exodus 6:6-7 before their baptism in the Red Sea.

Exodus 6:6-7 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians

Then we have the baptism of Jesus. Jesus didn't need to be baptized because He didn't have any sins; however, He told John to baptize Him to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus' baptism was at the Jordan River. His baptism was also water and spirit. When Christ emerged from the waters of the Jordan River, a dove representing the Holy Spirit came upon Him.......again water and spirit.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Since the beginning, God never changed. He always used water and spirit to create something new or to have something born again. Creation began with water and spirit. Another creation began with Noah using water and spirit. The Israelites were born again as God's people using water and spirit. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He showed us the Way to be born again.....and that is with water and spirit......baptism. So, now we come around to Jesus' own words.

John 3:3-5 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[fn]”........Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

To be born again means baptism. And of course, we live out our baptism so that we can be born into a new creation in Christ. To be born again, it starts with washing away all sins, including the original sin passed by Adam and Eve and the Spirit sanctifies one into a new creation.
 
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The fact that infants were not mentioned in "household" does not mean there were no infants. If everyone in the entire household were baptized, that means "everyone"....including any infants who were there. After all, baptism replaced circumcision.
There are important differences. That it was primarily infants who were circumcised is one that has already been noted. Another one, however obvious, is that circumcision only applied to (or makes sense for) males. If baptism replaced circumcision exactly, as you argue, then only males would need to be baptised, which is clearly absurd.

Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ” and “the circumcision made without hands.” Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
I don't think your logic holds here. Did Paul therefore mean to exclude women from baptism, as females lack the necessary anatomy to be circumcised, and the circumcision commandment was specifically and only for "all males"? If your answer is no, then neither can your argument logically be that he intended to include infants. Is it not more consistent to infer that baptism is a symbol of what takes place spiritually (immersion into Christ), just as physical circumcision is/was a symbol of what takes place spiritually in our hearts (removal of the sin/hard-heartedness that prevents our hearts from being sensitive to God)? Both are physical symbols of being born again.

Also, the Early Christians practiced infant baptism, and one can find those evidence in the writings of the Early Christians. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that “according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants” (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, “The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
I don't personally support infant baptism, but I believe a case can be made for it. However, baptism means complete immersion, and most infants today are only sprinkled, rather than immersed. Doesn't changing the ritual as originally intended not take away the symbolism it was for? Would circumcision have the still been circumcision if the Jews, instead of discarding the foreskin of males, started to remove ear lobes or pierce noses to make it more inclusive for both genders?

However, whatever one's belief about baptism or circumcision for infants, scripture is fairly clear that neither of these give salvation. Instead, the symbolise what salvation does spiritually.
 
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1watchman

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Further more, do the things I have written offend you?

It doesn't offend any true "born again" Christian, but perhaps does to God, when you strongly assert that water is part of salvation. It certainly is NOT, for it speaks only as a symbol of seeking to cleanse self ---not the cleansing by God. We all need to have a cleansing (or right) spirit, to approach unto God ---and through His "...beloved Son". God will THEN honor that one. It is all about honor. Many souls receive the Savior into their heart while on their death bed and are not baptized. So, pray about it, friend, and hopefully you will come to see what God's "...so great salvation" is.
 
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It doesn't offend any true "born again" Christian, but perhaps does to God, when you strongly assert that water is part of salvation. It certainly is NOT, for it speaks only as a symbol of seeking to cleanse self ---not the cleansing by God. We all need to have a cleansing (or right) spirit, to approach unto God ---and through His "...beloved Son". God will THEN honor that one. It is all about honor. Many souls receive the Savior into their heart while on their death bed and are not baptized. So, pray about it, friend, and hopefully you will come to see what God's "...so great salvation" is.
I agree it wouldn't make sense for a true believer to remain unbaptised, the same as in the Old Testament, it wouldn't make sense for a true believer not to circumcise all the males in his or her household. However, to say that (water) baptism is required for salvation is in my view as wrong as to say that (physical) circumcision is required for salvation.

Spiritual baptism and heart circumcision are required for salvation, but that is not what is being discussed here.
 
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Selene03

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It doesn't offend any true "born again" Christian, but perhaps does to God, when you strongly assert that water is part of salvation. It certainly is NOT, for it speaks only as a symbol of seeking to cleanse self ---not the cleansing by God. We all need to have a cleansing (or right) spirit, to approach unto God ---and through His "...beloved Son". God will THEN honor that one. It is all about honor. Many souls receive the Savior into their heart while on their death bed and are not baptized. So, pray about it, friend, and hopefully you will come to see what God's "...so great salvation" is.
Just as God commanded circumcision, He also commanded water baptism. In the Old Testament, those who were not circumcised didn't belong to God's family.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Water baptism also came from God and was commanded by God.

Mark 11:30 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin? Tell me!”
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

John's baptism of water came from God, and this baptism is a baptism of the forgiveness of sins. Baptism replaced circumcision. The New Testament surpassed the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised belong to the People of God. All the household of the males who were circumcised belonged to God because the man is the head of the household. Everyone under him also belongs to God. The New Testament is better because all those who were baptized belongs to God. In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and all those who were baptized became the People of God. The Bible does say that water baptism can save. Why? Because water symbolized the cleansing of sins.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

God commanded John to come baptizing with water for the forgiveness of sins. It was commanded by God. And this is why we baptize infants because infants were born with the sin that came from Adam and Eve. Baptism removes that sin so that our infants become part of God's family. In baptism, both water and spirit come together, not separately.

There was a man sent from God, who is John the Baptist. John was already "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb." The fire of the Holy Spirit was already in John, and he was the forerunner of the coming Lord. John's baptism was for the repentance of sins. Baptism in water and the Spirit will be the new birth.

Water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism. Just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.

We were all born into an earthly life from the waters of our mother's womb. Our NEW BIRTH into the divine life as "born again" Christians is through baptism....a baptism of water and spirit just as Christ said. One cannot exclude water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
 
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psalm911

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Just as God commanded circumcision, He also commanded water baptism. In the Old Testament, those who were not circumcised didn't belong to God's family.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Water baptism also came from God and was commanded by God.

Mark 11:30 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin? Tell me!”
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

John's baptism of water came from God, and this baptism is a baptism of the forgiveness of sins. Baptism replaced circumcision. The New Testament surpassed the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised belong to the People of God. All the household of the males who were circumcised belonged to God because the man is the head of the household. Everyone under him also belongs to God. The New Testament is better because all those who were baptized belongs to God. In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and all those who were baptized became the People of God. The Bible does say that water baptism can save. Why? Because water symbolized the cleansing of sins.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

God commanded John to come baptizing with water for the forgiveness of sins. It was commanded by God. And this is why we baptize infants because infants were born with the sin that came from Adam and Eve. Baptism removes that sin so that our infants become part of God's family. In baptism, both water and spirit come together, not separately.

There was a man sent from God, who is John the Baptist. John was already "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb." The fire of the Holy Spirit was already in John, and he was the forerunner of the coming Lord. John's baptism was for the repentance of sins. Baptism in water and the Spirit will be the new birth.

Water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism. Just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.

We were all born into an earthly life from the waters of our mother's womb. Our NEW BIRTH into the divine life as "born again" Christians is through baptism....a baptism of water and spirit just as Christ said. One cannot exclude water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The water in water baptism represents the word of God: the gospel. The water that you referenced in John 3 is referring to the water of the womb, as it is written:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of A WOMAN and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the SPIRIT of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What these scriptures are saying is that the person baptizing must have the Spirit of God so that the other is born of God.

Being raised with Christ through water baptism is the new birth: born from the dead: a child of the Resurrection. And so it is fulfilled in the scripture in reference to the resurrection, God said, this day I have begotten thee.


Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


and again the new birth by the Resurrection:

1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


And again the new birth by water baptism spoken of in the scripture below:

Galatians 3:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ(SON OF GOD) have put on Christ(THE SON OF GOD).

Further more, a testament is a force after men are dead and is no force at all while the testator lives. When Christ died all the commandments he spoke from the Spirit of God became LAW: including baptism.
 
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Selene03

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The water in water baptism represents the word of God: the gospel. The water that you referenced in John 3 is referring to the water of the womb, as it is written:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of A WOMAN and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the SPIRIT of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What these scriptures are saying is that the person baptizing must have the Spirit of God so that the other is born of God.

Being raised with Christ through water baptism is the new birth: born from the dead: a child of the Resurrection. And so it is fulfilled in the scripture in reference to the resurrection, God said, this day I have begotten thee.


Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


and again the new birth by the Resurrection:

1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


And again the new birth by water baptism spoken of in the scripture below:

Galatians 3:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ(SON OF GOD) have put on Christ(THE SON OF GOD).

Further more, a testament is a force after men are dead and is no force at all while the testator lives. When Christ died all the commandments he spoke from the Spirit of God became LAW: including baptism.
It was Nicodemus who misunderstood Christ. According to what Nicodemus said to Jesus:

John 3:4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus corrected Nicodemus. Jesus was speaking about being born again through baptism.
 
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psalm911

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It was Nicodemus who misunderstood Christ. According to what Nicodemus said to Jesus:

John 3:4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus corrected Nicodemus. Jesus was speaking about being born again through baptism.
I agree with you, Jesus corrected him and he was speaking about being born again through water baptism but the water he was referring to was the water from the womb.

Nicodemus was thinking that the new birth was from the womb. And Jesus corrected him in regards to the two births, one of water from the womb of a woman and one of the Spirit of God. So one of Flesh and one of the Spirit of God. Those who are baptized by one with the Spirit of God are born of God. And so being born of God they are given the Holy Spirit and by that Holy Spirit of Christ they know they are in the Spirit of God in heaven. And so he that is born of The Flesh is Flesh and he that is born of the Spirit is not Flesh but spirit.
 
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Selene03

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I agree with you, Jesus corrected him and he was speaking about being born again through water baptism but the water he was referring to was the water from the womb.

Nicodemus was thinking that the new birth was from the womb. And Jesus corrected him in regards to the two births, one of water from the womb of a woman and one of the Spirit of God. So one of Flesh and one of the Spirit of God. Those who are baptized by one with the Spirit of God are born of God. And so being born of God they are given the Holy Spirit and by that Holy Spirit of Christ they know they are in the Spirit of God in heaven. And so he that is born of The Flesh is Flesh and he that is born of the Spirit is not Flesh but spirit.
Yes, the water Jesus refers to was baptism. The waters of baptism has always been associated with the removal or the repentance of sins and the Holy Spirit acts within those waters.
 
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psalm911

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Yes, the water Jesus refers to was baptism. The waters of baptism has always been associated with the removal or the repentance of sins and the Holy Spirit acts within those waters.
Water in water baptism represents the word of God. And so those who are born of God are born of his word. And to be baptized into Christ through baptism is to put off the old man and put on the new man which is Christ not you the man of sin.
 
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1watchman

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Just as God commanded circumcision, He also commanded water baptism. In the Old Testament, those who were not circumcised didn't belong to God's family.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Water baptism also came from God and was commanded by God.

Mark 11:30 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin? Tell me!”
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

John's baptism of water came from God, and this baptism is a baptism of the forgiveness of sins. Baptism replaced circumcision. The New Testament surpassed the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised belong to the People of God. All the household of the males who were circumcised belonged to God because the man is the head of the household. Everyone under him also belongs to God. The New Testament is better because all those who were baptized belongs to God. In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and all those who were baptized became the People of God. The Bible does say that water baptism can save. Why? Because water symbolized the cleansing of sins.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

God commanded John to come baptizing with water for the forgiveness of sins. It was commanded by God. And this is why we baptize infants because infants were born with the sin that came from Adam and Eve. Baptism removes that sin so that our infants become part of God's family. In baptism, both water and spirit come together, not separately.

There was a man sent from God, who is John the Baptist. John was already "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb." The fire of the Holy Spirit was already in John, and he was the forerunner of the coming Lord. John's baptism was for the repentance of sins. Baptism in water and the Spirit will be the new birth.

Water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism. Just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.

We were all born into an earthly life from the waters of our mother's womb. Our NEW BIRTH into the divine life as "born again" Christians is through baptism....a baptism of water and spirit just as Christ said. One cannot exclude water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Selene, the real understanding of 1 Pet. 3:2 on Baptism is "...answer of a good conscience"; and John 3:5 speaks of "born of water" as the WORD OF GOD, as shown in many scriptures; and is NOT salvation as you suggest. It is a RIGHT SPIRIT and obedience as I stated above (see the post again). I can understand from your religious training how you might have gotten the ideas of WORKS for salvation, but salvation is only the "...grace of God" to those who receive His "...beloved Son". All else is faithfulness and obedience to the Word of God.
Baptism is our obedience and bowing to God's calling.
 
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Selene03

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Selene, the real understanding of 1 Pet. 3:2 on Baptism is "...answer of a good conscience"; and John 3:5 speaks of "born of water" as the WORD OF GOD, as shown in many scriptures; and is NOT salvation as you suggest. It is a RIGHT SPIRIT and obedience as I stated above (see the post again). I can understand from your religious training how you might have gotten the ideas of WORKS for salvation, but salvation is only the "...grace of God" to those who receive His "...beloved Son". All else is faithfulness and obedience to the Word of God.
Baptism is our obedience and bowing to God's calling.

Jesus was the one who spoke these words: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..." If I was there during Jesus' time, and I heard those words from Him, I would immediately get myself baptized because Jesus spoke the truth. He is the Truth. He said that those who believes and is baptized will be saved; therefore, baptism becomes part of salvation. If it's not part of salvation, as you claim, then what happens to those who believes, but are not baptized?

Also, there is nothing in John 3:5 saying that "born of water" is the Word of God. In fact, Jesus stated "born of water AND spirit". Jesus didn't separate the two.
 
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1watchman

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Jesus was the one who spoke these words: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..." If I was there during Jesus' time, and I heard those words from Him, I would immediately get myself baptized because Jesus spoke the truth. He is the Truth. He said that those who believes and is baptized will be saved; therefore, baptism becomes part of salvation. If it's not part of salvation, as you claim, then what happens to those who believes, but are not baptized?

Also, there is nothing in John 3:5 saying that "born of water" is the Word of God. In fact, Jesus stated "born of water AND spirit". Jesus didn't separate the two.

One needs to take "all the counsel of God", friend, and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", as God says. Bible scholars all show these things. We need to OBEY AND RECEIVE the Savior to be saved. Note Mark 16:16, which shows Baptism as standing with and for Christ as a right spirit ---not salvation; also Acts 2: 38 which is properly "unto" and not into; Titus 3:5 is about "regeneration" awakening to God and His salvation---"quickening", and THEN "renewing of the Holy Spirit" which is the spiritual new birth (as John 3); 1 Pet. 3:21 shows clearly that salvation is not by the baptism, which is ONLY "a good conscience". As I stated before: some people confess the Lord Jesus on their death bed and are not baptized. I won't pursue this, but if you wish to learn more on this you may write me personally for a discussion.
 
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Just as God commanded circumcision, He also commanded water baptism. In the Old Testament, those who were not circumcised didn't belong to God's family.
Abraham belonged to God's family a long time before he was circumcised.
Romans 4:9 - 12 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

John's baptism of water came from God, and this baptism is a baptism of the forgiveness of sins. Baptism replaced circumcision. The New Testament surpassed the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised belong to the People of God.
So why does God command (already circumcised) Jews to circumcise their hearts, in Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked"? If circumcision made one belong to the People of God, why did Israel suffer such harsh judgements from God throughout her history? They faithfully carried out circumcision. And what about the females, who couldn't be circumcised? If you argue they had to marry a circumcised man to be saved, how about those who couldn't marry, or who were captured by the enemy or who had to marry foreigners (e.g. Naaman's slave girl, or Queen Esther, or even Luke's mom)? Were they unsaved and outside of the People of God despite their faith, just because of the unfortunate nature of their circumstances?

All the household of the males who were circumcised belonged to God because the man is the head of the household. Everyone under him also belongs to God. The New Testament is better because all those who were baptized belongs to God. In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and all those who were baptized became the People of God. The Bible does say that water baptism can save. Why? Because water symbolized the cleansing of sins.
I guess Paul didn't know this, as he had to re-baptise some disciples who didn't understand about Jesus.

Acts 19:1 - 4 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
I'm sure you note the clause around condemnation focuses on unbelief, rather than unbaptism. Being baptised is a natural follow-up to believing.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

God commanded John to come baptizing with water for the forgiveness of sins. It was commanded by God. And this is why we baptize infants because infants were born with the sin that came from Adam and Eve. Baptism removes that sin so that our infants become part of God's family. In baptism, both water and spirit come together, not separately.
You seem to be confusing spiritual baptism (i.e. being immersed in Christ), with water baptism. The water (baptism - immersion in water) symbolises the (spiritual) baptism (immersion in Christ), which saves us by His resurrection.

We were all born into an earthly life from the waters of our mother's womb. Our NEW BIRTH into the divine life as "born again" Christians is through baptism....a baptism of water and spirit just as Christ said. One cannot exclude water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
As you indicated, being born of water is something common to us all, so it therefore cannot save us. We (men) are all born of water from our mothers' wombs. Being born of the Spirit was what Jesus' focus was on, given that all men are born of water. Of interest is that heavenly beings (e.g. angels) are not born of water, so the talk of being "born of water" could be used to prove that Jesus was focusing on mankind, rather than all of creation.
 
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Selene03

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Abraham belonged to God's family a long time before he was circumcised.
Romans 4:9 - 12 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

In the Old Testament, God commanded circumcision so that those who were circumcised became His chosen people. Those who were not circumcised were NOT His chosen people. Only the Israelites followed this command. The Gentiles did not. (Genesis 17:10-14)

So why does God command (already circumcised) Jews to circumcise their hearts, in Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked"? If circumcision made one belong to the People of God, why did Israel suffer such harsh judgements from God throughout her history? They faithfully carried out circumcision. And what about the females, who couldn't be circumcised? If you argue they had to marry a circumcised man to be saved, how about those who couldn't marry, or who were captured by the enemy or who had to marry foreigners (e.g. Naaman's slave girl, or Queen Esther, or even Luke's mom)? Were they unsaved and outside of the People of God despite their faith, just because of the unfortunate nature of their circumstances?

Circumcision of the flesh is not the same as circumcision of the heart. Paul described circumcision of the heart as "baptism."

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

The above scripture says that Christians were also circumcised, but it was a circumcision not performed by human hands. In other words, the circumcision Christians received is a BAPTISM. We were circumicised by Christ by being buried in baptism.

I guess Paul didn't know this, as he had to re-baptise some disciples who didn't understand about Jesus.

Acts 19:1 - 4 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Water AND spirit must always be together. It is not one or the other. As you pointed out in Scripture, when Paul saw a group of men who were baptized in water, Paul gave them the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands. The spirit comes through the laying of hands. Paul placed his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them.

In the same way, when the Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius and his household, Peter commanded that Cornelius and his entire household be baptized with water (See Acts 10:44-48).

Water and spirit are always together. Just as Christ said. One must be born again of water AND Spirit.

1 John 5:6-8 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

I'm sure you note the clause around condemnation focuses on unbelief, rather than unbaptism. Being baptised is a natural follow-up to believing.

Christ said that those who believes and is baptized will be saved, and those who don't believe will not be saved. However, the question remains........what about those who believe, but are NOT baptized? Do you think that believing is enough? There are people who think that all one needs is to believe and they are already saved and don't need baptism. So why should they follow up if they think they're already saved? To some Christians, it's a baptism of the spirit that matters the most, and they leave out the water. Is believing enough? Because even the Holy Bible says that the devil believes that God exists (James 2:19), but the devil is not saved.

You seem to be confusing spiritual baptism (i.e. being immersed in Christ), with water baptism. The water (baptism - immersion in water) symbolises the (spiritual) baptism (immersion in Christ), which saves us by His resurrection.

As you indicated, being born of water is something common to us all, so it therefore cannot save us. We (men) are all born of water from our mothers' wombs. Being born of the Spirit was what Jesus' focus was on, given that all men are born of water. Of interest is that heavenly beings (e.g. angels) are not born of water, so the talk of being "born of water" could be used to prove that Jesus was focusing on mankind, rather than all of creation.

On the contrary, Jesus said, one must be born of water AND Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. He never said that one must be born of the Spirit alone to enter God's kingdom. As I said, there are Christians who think that all they need is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit and they leave out the water.

Acts 10:44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

As you can see in the above scripture, when Peter saw that the Holy Spirit descended upon Cornelius and his household, Peter ordered that they be baptized with water. Water AND spirit together.
 
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In the Old Testament, God commanded circumcision so that those who were circumcised became His chosen people. Those who were not circumcised were NOT His chosen people. Only the Israelites followed this command. The Gentiles did not. (Genesis 17:10-14)
The people were circumcised when they already were God's chosen people. It was a sign of obedience, making uncircumcision an act of disobedience. If circumcision alone made a man belong to God, many of the Egyptians and other Old Testament nations would have also been God's chosen people. Just like Abraham, people came to God, and circumcision was just one part of this obedience. Likewise, obedience to circumcision, but disobedience to God in other matters, was an issue frequently raised by God to the Israelites. They were circumcised in flesh, but not in heart.

Jeremiah 9:25-26
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will punish all those who are circumcised merely in the flesh— Egypt, Judah, Edom, the sons of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert who cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.”

Circumcision of the flesh is not the same as circumcision of the heart. Paul described circumcision of the heart as "baptism."

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Just as circumcision may be both spiritual and physical, so too can baptism be. We are physically baptised in water, but this is symbollic of the spiritual - us being buried with Christ, and raised with Him through faith.

The above scripture says that Christians were also circumcised, but it was a circumcision not performed by human hands. In other words, the circumcision Christians received is a BAPTISM. We were circumicised by Christ by being buried in baptism.
This scripture is simply explaining the metaphors of circumcision and baptism. Just as in physical circumcision, the flesh which causes death (separation from God) is removed and in spiritual circumcision, the self ruled by the flesh is put off, so too baptism in water symbolises our spiritual burial with Christ, and being raised with Him through faith.

Water AND spirit must always be together. It is not one or the other. As you pointed out in Scripture, when Paul saw a group of men who were baptized in water, Paul gave them the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands. The spirit comes through the laying of hands. Paul placed his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them.
Did you note they were baptised again? Demonstrating that baptism, like circumcision, without faith is worthless. Baptism with water (like OT circumcision) is an act of obedience that is taken when one has become a child of God.

However, the question remains........what about those who believe, but are NOT baptized? Do you think that believing is enough? There are people who think that all one needs is to believe and they are already saved and don't need baptism. So why should they follow up if they think they're already saved? To some Christians, it's a baptism of the spirit that matters the most, and they leave out the water. Is believing enough? Because even the Holy Bible says that the devil believes that God exists (James 2:19), but the devil is not saved.
The devil is not born of water (i.e. born), for a start. And the belief talked about for salvation is belief in Christ's redemption through His blood, not available to the devil. But if one truly believes, why would he not be obedient to God's command to be baptised? If he resists baptism, perhaps he does not truly believe. In the thief on the cross's case, he was physically prevented from being baptised, but Jesus still saved him.


On the contrary, Jesus said, one must be born of water AND Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. He never said that one must be born of the Spirit alone to enter God's kingdom. As I said, there are Christians who think that all they need is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit and they leave out the water.
If they truly believe, I don't think they can leave out the water forever. Just as in the Old Testament, God was able to use Zipporah to help Moses obey the commandment to circumcise, I think God's Holy Spirit in the hearts of New Testament believers convicts them to be baptised. This said, I don't believe any Christian can follow Christ sinlessly. Just because a Christian may sin, this doesn't mean Christ will reject him.

Acts 10:44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

As you can see in the above scripture, when Peter saw that the Holy Spirit descended upon Cornelius and his household, Peter ordered that they be baptized with water. Water AND spirit together.
It was the Holy Spirit first. The water followed, being a symbol of the saving faith (i.e. spiritual circumcision and/or baptism into Christ) which had already taken place.
 
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Selene03

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Did you note they were baptised again? Demonstrating that baptism, like circumcision, without faith is worthless. Baptism with water (like OT circumcision) is an act of obedience that is taken when one has become a child of God.

There is only one baptism (See Ephesians 4:5). If they are baptized with only water, then it's an improper baptism. If it's only by the spirit, again, it's an improper baptism. Baptism includes both water and spirit in order for it to be valid.

It was the Holy Spirit first. The water followed, being a symbol of the saving faith (i.e. spiritual circumcision and/or baptism into Christ) which had already taken place.

On the contrary. In baptism, water comes first and then one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. God sent John the Baptist first to baptize with water. John said that there will be someone after him who will come baptizing with the Holy Spirit. In the same way, look at Jesus' baptism at the Jordan River. Jesus was immersed into the water. After He rose from the water, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. After Pentecost, Peter stated, "Repent and be baptize and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Peter is essentially saying that one must be baptized with water in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. After the person is immersed in water, the Holy Spirit comes and acts through the baptismal waters.
 
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