Wow!!Is this what your interpreting methods lead to?You have abandoned the passage in question,which explains what the comforting is about and have inserted passages which have an entirely different context.
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When to look for the rapture of the church
- Thread starter rockytopva
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Wow!!Is this what your interpreting methods lead to?You have abandoned the passage in question,which explains what the comforting is about and have inserted passages which have an entirely different context.
If I may jump in here briefly again.
Thought you were gone,but I guess you are just selective in what/who you address.
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- Jan 3, 2019
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LOL. It feels like I've got my own personal stalker.
But, yeah. I'm pretty selective in how many times I want to repeat myself to the same person. If someone doesn't get it, then there is no point in dragging something on.
But, safswan, just to make sure I haven't judged you wrong. You are saying there is no rapture, or there is a rapture after the tribulation, and Jesus allows his bride to get the crap beaten out of her, beheaded and murdered before coming to take her as wife?
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The day of Christ,the day of the Lord Jesus Christ,the day of the Lord Jesus,the day of the Lord are all referring to the same event ie. the coming of the Lord.It is one of the fallacies of the pre-trib. doctrine to say these are different.One explanation is to say they begin at the same time but the day of the Lord is the tribulation.This is in no way supported by the scriptures.The scriptures show this is the time at which Christians should expect to see the Lord returning for them.
Christians are to be confirmed to the end so that they are blameless in "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".(I Corinthians 1:8.)
The time when we will be saved or delivered is called "the day of the Lord Jesus".(I Corinthians 5:5.)
The Lord will preserve and keep us until "the day of Jesus Christ".(Phliippians 1:6.)
We are to be sincere and without offence till "the day of Christ".(Philippians 1:10.)
Paul will know and rejoice that he had not run nor laboured in vain in "the day of Christ".(Philippians 2:16.)
Paul says the event which comes as a thief in the night and which should not overtake us,not because of a rapture but because we are prepared,is called "the day of the Lord".(I Thessalonians 5:1-9.)
Hence Paul was not telling the Thessalonians about a day of vengeance,but was assuring them that the time of the Lord's coming was not yet.He identifies two things which must happen before the coming occurs,the falling away(apostasia)and the man of sin will be revealed.Before the coming of the Lord will be the apostasia and the man of sin be revealed.
The apostasia is clearly linked to the coming man of sin.The mystery of iniquity or mystery of lawlessness had begun in Paul's time which is the turning away from God's truth ie.apostasia and the end result will be that which Paul spoke of in II Thessalonians 2:3,after which the man of sin is revealed.The mystery of iniquity and its development will precede the revealing of the man of sin,(II Thess.2:7,8),just as the apostasia comes first and then the man of sin is revealed.(II Thess.2:3)
The removal of the hinderer is linked to the mystery of iniquity and the revealing of the man of sin.For Paul to say:
"...the mystery of iniquity doth already work:"(II Thess.2:7);this must be a reference to something mentioned at its completion or maturity,which he is now saying has started. Apostasia being interpreted as apostasy would fit this context completely ie. the apostasy would come first then the man of sin,but it had already started and when completed and the hinderer removed, then will the man of sin be revealed.It is only after this that the Lord will come for His people.This is the progression of thought in the passage.(II Thess.2:3-8.)
Why would the Thessalonians become "shaken in mind" or "be troubled" that the day of Christ is "at hand"?
shaken - (4531,Strong's) saleuo;to waver,ie,agitate,rock,topple or destroy;fig.to disturb,incite:
troubled - (2360,Strong's) throeo;to clamour,ie,(by impl.)to frighten:
at hand - (1764,Strong's) enistemi;to place on hand,ie.(reflex.)impend,(part.)be instant:
N.B. impend - hang (over);(of event or danger)be imminent.
Paul had assured them they were not appointed to experience wrath but to obtain salvation.(I Thess.5:9.)
He also told them to expect and be patient in tribulation.(I Thess.3:2-4;II Thess.1:4,5;see also Acts 14:22)
Why then were they agitated or frightened?Were they worried about being worthy to be with the Lord at his coming?(II Thess.1:11)Could they have been just excited and diverted from Paul's teaching about the coming of the Lord? Could they be thinking His coming was actually at the very door, when it was not?As was shown above,"at hand" does not only mean,"is present" as some say but also carries the meaning of imminency.
Based on the words of Paul in the passage ,he did not seek to assure the Thessalonians that the Lord has not come and they had not missed the event.Instead he sought to assure them of events which would occur before the Lord comes.This implies they thought the coming was very near,almost at the door,not that it had passed.Hence they were shaken from what he had taught them previously and were unnecessarily excited about an event which was to occur only after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.
"Remember ye not,that,when I was yet with you,I told you these things?"(II Thess.2:5)
He later says,rather than be shaken and agitated,they should:
"...stand fast,and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,whether by word,or our epistle."(II Thess.2:15)
Paul is correcting the very error which today is the popular teaching about the coming of the Lord ie. the Lord may come at any time.He clearly refutes this teaching but many today are shaken and troubled and have led many astray with this false teaching.It is only because of the failure to heed the words of Paul why many could have believed in the predictions,about the Lord's coming,by William Miller and others.Others today do not set dates but cause many to be continuously agitated as they expound the false teaching.
John confirms we will see antichrist(the man of sin) before the Lord's coming, as he says we have been warned that antichrist will come.Why warn if Christians would not see the advent of antichrist?(I John 2:18-24)
Apostasia,therefore, in this context cannot refer to the rapture but to apostasy from God's truth which will precede the revealing of the man of sin.It is only after this ,that Christians can say the Lord's coming is imminent.
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I believe if we look at the words of Paul from I Thessalonians 4,through I Thessalonians 5,we will see him telling the Church to be comforted by the fact that the Lord will return with the saints who are dead and that those who are alive and they will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air.And that they should not be as others who are in the dark and are caught unawares by the coming of the Lord.He calls the event the day of the Lord and that day.Some claim this is a different event from what is described in I Thessalonians 4:16-18,but if we look at the passages as they were written,without the chapter break,we see that Paul is describing the event of I Thessalonians 4,further in I Thessalonians 5 and calls the event "the day of the Lord",and "that day".
I Thessalonians 4:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I Thessalonians 5:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
He then goes on in II Thessalonians 2,to refute teaching/belief that "that day" was imminent or actually here.Hence it would be redundant for Paul to be saying that the coming of the Lord,(that day) would not happen until the coming of the Lord(the falling away/departure) and the man of sin be revealed.
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Ah... but how are they made blameless... are they justified by their own righteousness or the righteousness of Yeshua?
Nice thought. But that would mean no one is ever saved. Without offense, would include even the smallest sin. Something like waking up that morning after a rough night's sleep, and when you start your day, missing that opportunity to tell that guy at the coffee shop of your hope and faith in Yeshua potentially leading to his salvation. Yes, that is a sin. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. Reformed theology has done more to train wreck many believers than anything else I can imagine. Either a person is justified in Messiah or they are not. None of this goofy 85% nonsense. Everyone has an unknown sin in their life.
Or what of that guy who is driving on the freeway and just happens to slip and call another driver a foul name, and at the very next instant a semi truck does a full gainer into the side of his car. He dies with that sin.
It is really sad that so many just love to abuse the brethren with nonsense that they are at risk of losing their salvation at any moment because of a screw up. We are not talking about open rebellion against the Lord and denying Him here, or living out repetitive sin with no desire to repent, we are talking about stumbling spiritually and dying the very next instant. So many are so worried about the least little falling out of line the they are virtually worthless in advancing the Gospel.
I recently heard a story that was used as a analogy regarding this issue.
When the Golden Gate Bridge was being built, workers were falling off, and given the distance to the water, they died when they hit because it was like concrete at that distance. Work productivity suffered. Finally, a net was strung under where the workers were to catch any that fell. Work productivity actually increased higher than it had been initially.
Justification is the same thing. We have the net of the Holy Spirit who sealed us to catch us if we fall. Therefore, it should lead us to be more productive for the Lord. We serve Him out of gratitude for what the He has done for us and knowing He has our back, not cowering slaves worried that the master could throw us out in the swamp with the gators to die at any moment.
As Paul said....
2 Timothy 2:11-13 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
The only part of that passage that even remotely hints at a loss of salvation is if we were to openly deny Him. Everything else is the blessed assurance of the believer that under any other circumstances, the Lord is faithful and will not cast us aside. We are bound to Him when we accept and trust Him. He cannot deny Himself. For us who have joined ourselves with Him, He is faithful even when we are faithless.
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I believe you err regarding that.....
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
We all go at the same time. The dead just get a advance start because they have 6 more feet to go. That is not canon, I just use that to make the point.
And where do the resurrected righteous dead and living go at that point? ....
Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive (gather) you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
And the only one caught unawares are those who have not been justified and live in darkness. It is the unbelievers.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
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It would be redundant if it was worded the way you are putting it. but....
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
That day (The Day of the Lord in the previous verse) will not come until the departure happens FIRST and then the man of sin is revealed.
The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is our gathering to the Lord. Not our rebelling against the Lord, or our falling away from the Lord. I have stated the details of this in a previous post. It is a spatial, physical departure, not a spiritual or doctrinal departure that is in view. This passage is Pre-Trib.... game, set, match.
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It is very important that we consider who is being addressed in any passage of scripture.In Matthew 24 and parallel passages in Mark and Luke it is clear that Jesus' message was not to the nation of Israel but to His disciples who are the foundation of the Church.[Ephesians 2:20]He warned them of the dangers the disciples would encounter and also told them what would happen to Israel as well.Hence "you" is used to refer to the disciples and "they" is used of Israel.N.B.:
Matthew 24:
9Then shall THEY deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mark 13:
9But take heed to yourselves: for THEY shall deliver YOU up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:
12But before all these, THEY shall lay their hands on YOU, and persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
It is clear that Jesus is telling His disciples what to look out for in the years to come after His departure.This must include the time when the distinction between the Church and Israel would be very clear.Unless like some you believe all of Matthew 24 was accomplished in the past,then the message to the disciples would be relevant to all Christians and is what the apostles would have taught the Church.N.B.
Matthew 24:
26Wherefore if they shall say unto YOU, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is what the apostles would have taught the Church,warning them to take heed that false prophets and false christs would not deceive them and then telling them of the manner of coming of the Lord for them the elect.Those described as "they" in this passage would include all unbelievers.
Other parts of the passage describe what would happen to the inhabitants of Jerusalem at the time of its destruction.
Luke 21:
20And when YE shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto THEM that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE.
24And THEY shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and JERUSALEM shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The Church and those who may follow them would escape from Jerusalem by following Jesus' instructions,while the unbelieving Israel would suffer the vengeance.History shows that this is exactly what happened as the Church fled to a place called Pella and escaped the siege of Jerusalem.
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One little teensy flaw in your logic. The church was not an entity yet when the Olivet discourse was delivered, so it is unreasonable to assume that it was directed to the church. And the disciples are NOT the foundation of the church, Yeshua is! Couldn't also be for the disciples' benefit as all of them were dead or in exile by the time 70AD rolled around. And there was no abomination of desolation set up in the Temple in 70 AD as Daniel described. The Temple was torched and torn apart for the melted gold.
And if you think for even one minute that the events of 70 AD met the condition of this next verse, you need to seek counseling. This passage is right there with the Abomination, Fleeing, Shabbat, etc stuff being laid out.
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Of course, one can pull out the allegorical interpretation song book and symbolize it away. But the reality is, what went on in Judea under the Romans in 70 AD hardly compared to the tribulation of WW II in the world and the extermination of 1/3 of the Jewish people.
If you want the dissertation directed at the church, that was several days later at the Last Supper in John 13 - John 17.
The Olivet discourse is directed at Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. Matthew 23:37-39.
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Josephus, Wars of the Jews, V.11.1
So they were first whipped, and then tormented with all sorts of tortures, before they died; and were then crucified before the wall of the city. This miserable procedure made Titus greatly to pity them; while they caught every day five hundred Jews; nay some days they caught more. Yet it did not appear to be safe for him to let those that were taken by force go their way; and to set a guard over so many he saw would be to make such as guarded them useless to him. The main reason why he did not forbid that cruelty was this, that he hoped the Jews might perhaps yield at that sight, out of fear lest they might themselves afterwards be liable to the same cruel treatment. So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another to the crosses, by way of jest. When their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses; and crosses wanting for the bodies.
No allegories or symbols there.
Crucifixion is widely acknowledged as the most agonizing death, experienced by our Lord.
What WW II tribulation parallel to Josephus' account exists?
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Nice try. Ask the folks who are of the people that it happened to. What is the largest memorials to the tragedies in their past. 70AD, 135AD or the mid 20th century? And we are talking volumes of numbers also, not individual sufferings. and more to the point, your counter misses a couple of salient parts to the passage of Matthew 24:15-22
Where was the abomination of desolation set up in the temple in 70 AD per Yeshua (Matthew 24:15) and Daniel 9:27? Didn't happen.
Try and show how the days of 70AD were cut short to prevent the extermination of all people, not just the elect. Matthew 24:22.
Nope. The 70AD events don't qualify except for Matthew 24:2. After that has nothing to do with 70AD.
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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)
Luk 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,
Luk 21:6 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."
(Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )
Luk 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"
(Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")
( Mar 13:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")
Luk 21:8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.
(Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )
Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."
(Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution
Luk 21:10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)
Luk 21:13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
Luk 21:14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Luk 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
Luk 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.
Luk 21:19 By your patience possess your souls.
(Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (See also Luke 19:41-44)
(Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
(Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
(Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
(Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "
Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.
John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.
The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.
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It always comes back to Revelation, doesn't it.
Between the seal and trumpet judgments one half of the world's population is killed. When has that happened in history?
The preterists have an answer, of course. Those passages refer to only Jerusalem, or only Israel. Some say it is all allegory.
But the plain fact is that John was in heaven watching future events unfold in real time. All the catastrophic events occur over the whole earth. There just simply is no getting around it, unless of course one wants to call God a liar and John a dupe.
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Yeah, and folks always seem to forget, Yeshua is answering specific questions that the Disciples asked Him in Matthew 24:3 .... when these things happen, what will be the sign of His coming, and how it all relates to the end of the age.
The only thing about Matthew 24 that was fulfilled in 70AD was verse 2. The rest of the discourse from verse 3 on to Matthew 25:46 is related to the questions in verse 3.
The public school system really has done a horrible job in teaching grammar and reading comprehension skills. And it is really showing up in discussions such as these. The only other explanation is that some put their doctrinal school of thought higher than scripture. It then becomes a matter of making scripture fit the doctrine than the doctrine fitting the scripture. Probably all of these things.
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Based on what your statement above, there must have been a change in the school system after John Nelson Darby came to America, about the time of the Civil War...
The following is John Darby's commentary.
"Luke 21:1-38
The Lord's discourse in chapter 21 displays the character of the Gospel in a peculiar manner. The spirit of grace, in contrast with the Judaic spirit, is seen in the account of the poor widow's offering. But the Lord's prophecy requires more detailed notice. Verse 6 (Luk_21:9), as we saw at the end of chapter 19, speaks only of the destruction of Jerusalem as she then stood. This is true also of the disciples' question. They say nothing of the end of the age. The Lord afterwards enters upon the duties and the circumstances of His disciples previous to that hour. In Verse 8 (Luk_21:8) it is said, "The time draweth near," which is not found in Matthew. He goes much more into detail with regard to their ministry during that period, encourages them, promises them necessary help. Persecution should turn to them for a testimony. From the middle of Verse 11 to the end of Verse 19 (Luk_21:11-19) we have details relative to His disciples, that are not found in the corresponding passage of Matthew. They present the general state of things in the same sense, adding the condition of the Jews, of those especially who, more or less, professedly received the word. The whole stream of testimony, as rendered in connection with Israel, but extending to the nations, is found in Matthew to the end of Verse 14 (Luk_21:14). In Luke it is the coming service of the disciples, until the moment when the judgment of God should put an end to that which was virtually terminated by the rejection of Christ. Consequently the Lord says nothing in Verse 20 (Luk_21:20) of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, but gives the fact of the siege of Jerusalem, and its then approaching desolation — not the end of the age, as in Matthew. These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live. There is a break here in the discourse. Its principal subject is ended; but there are still some events of the last scene to be revealed, which close the history of this Gentile supremacy.
We shall see also that, although it is the commencement of the judgment, from which Jerusalem will not arise until all is accomplished and the song of Isaiah 40 is addressed to her, nevertheless, the great tribulation is not mentioned here. There is great distress, and wrath upon the people, as was indeed the case in the siege of Jerusalem by Titus; and the Jews were also led away captive. Neither is it said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." Nevertheless, without designating the epoch, but after having spoken of the times of the Gentiles, the end of the age comes. There are signs in heaven, distress on earth, a mighty movement in the waves of human population. The heart of man, moved by a prophetic alarm, foresees the calamities which, still unknown, are threatening him; for all the influences that govern men are shaken. Then shall they see the Son of man, once rejected from the earth, coming from heaven with the ensigns of Jehovah, with power and great glory — the Son of man, of whom this Gospel has always spoken. There the prophecy ends. We have not here the gathering together of the elect Israelites, who had been dispersed, of which Matthew speaks.
That which follows consists of exhortations, in order that the day of distress may be a token of deliverance to the faith of those who, trusting in the Lord, obey the voice of His servant. The "generation" (a word already explained when considering Matthew) should not pass away till all was fulfilled. The length of the time that has elapsed since then, and that must elapse until the end, is left in darkness. Heavenly things are not measured by dates. Moreover that moment is hidden in the knowledge of the Father. Still heaven and earth should pass away, but not the words of Jesus. He then tells them that, as dwelling on earth, they must be watchful, lest their own hearts should be overcharged with things that would sink them into this world, in the midst of which they were to be witnesses. For that day would come as a snare upon all those who had their dwelling here, who were rooted here. They were to watch and pray, in order to escape all those things, and to stand in the presence of the Son of man. This is still the great subject of our Gospel. To be with Him, as those who have escaped from the earth, to be among the 144,000 on Mount Zion, will be an accomplishment of this blessing, but the place is not named; so that, supposing the faithfulness of those whom He was personally addressing, the hope awakened by His words would be fulfilled in a more excellent manner in His heavenly presence in the day of glory."
.
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- May 19, 2015
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Hogwash. Try telling that to the Jews who are still without a Temple............
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
All 3 mention the 70ad Temple, stones, stone upon stone- thrown down.......
Only Matthew and Mark mention "buildings" #3619
[These 3 verses in Matt and Mark are the only places in the Gospels plural "buildings" is used.]
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these? Amen I am saying to ye,
not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>
Luke doesn't mention the buildings, but rather how the Temple was adorned with beautiful stones [as does Mark 13:1] and donations.
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647> [Luke 19:44]
=======================================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?
Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell to us! when these shall be being?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these.
Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming?
===========================
Matthew 24:
4 And Jesus answeing said to them: “be heeding<991> no any ye should be deceived<4105>.
5 “For many shall be coming upon My name, saying,‘I AM the Christ,’
and many they shall be deceiving.”
Mark 13:
5 Yet Jesus answering, begins to be saying “be heeding no anyone ye should be deceiving<4105>.
6 “For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I AM' and many they shall be deceiving<4105>
Luke adds "the time has drawn near"........
Luke 21:
8 The ye He said: “be heeding no ye may be being deceived<4105>.
For many shall be coming upon My name saying that 'I Am' and 'The time/season<2540> has drawn nigh'.
No then ye may be being gone after them."
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Unlike futurized imaginations, history doesn't need to try. It already is accomplished.
Ask any historically perceptive Jew, or any other individual, which of death by gas, bullet, or crucifixion they would not choose.
The answer is self-evident. It is also the answer to which death represents the greatest tribulation.
Consistent with Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:21.
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Not to indict anyone here personally, because I'm speaking of the Christian population as a whole, if you Google the statements of faith for the major denominations you'll discover that many of them outright state that they don't hold to a rapture, a millennial reign of Christ, a seven-year tribulation, the antichrist, etc. These are mainline Protestant denominations I'm talking about.
Now imagine your average Christian sitting in a pew for decades being deprived of good, accurate biblical exposition. As far as they are concerned, the important eschatological doctrines simply do not exist in their Bibles. So they become easy prey to false teaching.
Personally, that's why I believe the preterist, no-rapture or post-trib folks are in the majority these days. The early church was unquestionably pre-trib, but that fell by the wayside when church "fathers" began teaching against that biblical truth, and Christian faith entered a period of dark ages. Thankfully there is still a remnant holding to the truth.
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Genesis of Dispensational Theology
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
http://www.regal-network.com/dispensationalism/pdfs.htm
Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf
.
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