It get's even better then? Not only will these Christians suffer the wrath of God.. but they will all be deceived.
Sorry, this is too much outside of scripture and the heart of our God. Yes, there will be a deception.. but not to billions.
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When to look for the rapture of the church
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Sorry, this is too much outside of scripture and the heart of our God. Yes, there will be a deception.. but not to billions.
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They aren't Christians. They are apostates who accepted the mark of the beast.
Obvious what I said is not outside of scripture nor the heart of God. In both of our views there are true Christians that suffer and are murdered and yes in both views it can be children or the elderly so your attempt to place that solely on my view was hypocritical.
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But it's what will be happening in the GT in both of our views.
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Oh, now that has the air of some true spirituality right there. You set yourself as the sole arbiter of what the scripture says and anyone who disagrees, it is only their words.
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Good point. And it does fit the context well. Never really paid as close attention to that. Went back and read the chapter and context and seems you hit the nail on the head.
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Mat_13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mat_24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Mat_24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mar_4:17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
Mar_13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Mar_13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Rom_5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom_12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
2Co_1:4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co_7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
1Th_3:4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
Rev_1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev_7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in the room.)
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Thank you Copperhead.
I know I might come across as a pedant with my constant lecturing about hermeneutics, but in virtually every case when someone misunderstands Scripture to the degree it causes them to believe in a false doctrine it's because he or she simply did not follow sound interpretive principles.
Who is being spoken to or about? Where and when is the action taking place? What is the context within the previous few verses, within the chapter, the book, the whole counsel of God?
Pronouns in particular are problematic. And descriptives in place of proper names. Locations matter immensely. So much confusion would be cleared up by accurately parsing these elements of Scripture.
Added in Edit: And I've grown particularly fond of Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians for its absolute clarity and unambiguity about the rapture and Christ's second coming. It is the absolute proof text against all those who claim that pre-trib is a modern invention. God told Paul. Paul taught it. The Thessalonians believed it. That's more than good enough for me.
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There has been major apostasy in the church before the ink was dry on the NT. In Acts, Paul brags about how all of Asia knows of the Gospel. In a letter to Timothy, Paul later writes how all in Asia had turned their back on him. The church couldn't even get 30 years down the road from the time of Yeshua before it was starting to stumble all over itself. And if one has further doubts, read the letters to the Corinthians and the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation.
Apostasy is not the key factor to the end times. Apostasy has been going on right out of the gate. Many love to rely on 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to support that apostasy argument, but there is not ample support that the passage is correctly translated as "falling away". Every English translation prior to KJV and Rheims used "departure", "the departure", or "a departure". Even the Latin Vulgate uses dicessio which means a spatial departure. i.e. the 1599 Geneva Bible....
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
The only use of the word apostasia elsewhere in the entire NT is in Acts 21:21 and it specifically states what is being departed from..... the Law of Moses. In 2 Thessalonians 2, there is nothing stating what is being departed from so the word stands on its own as departure. To make it say a falling away is taking liberties with the text and imposing another context on the passage. It would be like me saying it is cool in my basement means the same thing as when I tell someone I saw a really cool movie.
No, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the passage simply and plainly means departure must occur first, then the man of sin will be revealed. It is the pre-trib..... game, set, match per Dr. Andy Woods.
The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is about our being gathered to the Lord, not our falling away from the Lord. And then what was stated in v3 is further amplified in v7-8 where the one restraining is taken out of the way then the lawless one is revealed. Paul is simply restating and amplifying what he wrote in v3. Repetitive argument that builds upon what came before it. It is the main reason Paul's letters are sometimes studied in secular college level writing courses. Not for their theology, but for the quality of writing style, of which Paul was a master.
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Yeah, sound hermeneutics is key. The Alexandrian school back in the day really opened a can of worms when it introduced allegorical interpretation. We all could have been spared hundreds of years of nonsense had Origen and his buddies just kept to themselves.
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Paul taught against the pre-trib "any moment doctrine" of a rapture.
The idea of a pretrib rapture took place back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night
So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!
Look at his words:
1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
That is the second coming!
2. and by our gathering together unto him
That is the rapture!
3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.
So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".
The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
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1 Thessalonians 4 is describing what will happen Between Yeshua and His bride. it is like the Jewish marriage of the 1st century. The bride and groom are betrothed and the deal is sealed with a cup of wine (that would be the last supper before Yeshua's death). Then the groom pays the dowry or bride price for his bride (that would be Yeshua's death on the cross). Then the groom returns to his father's place to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride (Yeshua returned to the Father and is preparing a place for His bride the church). The groom is not allowed to come get his bride until the father approves of the wedding chamber (hence Yeshua's comment about "only my father knows"). When the groom comes for his bride, a shout or trumpet is sounded and, now dig this.... the bride comes out of her house to meet the groom and they both return to the wedding chamber he has prepared. The groom does not come into the house. In 1 Thessalonians 4, we meet Yeshua in the air (outside our house) and return to the wedding chamber with Him. Yeshua never sets foot on earth at that time.
Matthew 24, the audience was established in Matthew 23:37-39. The Hebrew people. The entire wording of Matthew 24 is targeted to a Jewish audience. Temple abomination, fleeing on shabbat, the Fig Tree, etc. And the elect is a reference to Isaiah 45:4.
Even carrying over into Matthew 25 which is part of the same discourse. The virgins are not the church. They are bridesmaids. The church is the bride. We don't get a downgrade just to fit some wild eschatological view. And it torpedoes the "partial rapture" nonsense that gets tossed around by some seeing the virgins as the church. The passage is expounding upon Ezekiel 20:37-38.
And the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25 is expounding upon Joel 3, which is the judgement of the nations on how they treated the Hebrew people.... the elect of Isaiah 45:4 again.
And as I showed in my previous post, 2 Thessalonians 2 is pre-trib... game, set, match.
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That's the falsest celebration I've ever seen. All you did is copy and paste a bunch of stuff that ignores all the scriptures that were posted.
I showed how it is against pre-trib. Believe as you wish but you can't change what Paul wrote.
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Now I am certain you are in trouble in this discussion when you make false accusations against folks. You have sinned. Plain and simple. I did not copy and paste anything. It was all done from memory from a lot of study over the years. But instead of attempting to refute it, you instead decide that character assassination is the way to go. You need to consider a job with the Democrat Party since that is their area of expertise.
What is happening here is that it is you are contending that your interpretation of the scripture is paramount. You have set yourself up as sole arbiter of what is truth. You have torpedoed your own boat.
Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and what I stated about it, go pick up the works of Dr. Kenneth Wuest, a premier Greek scholar and professor of New Testament Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades. He was the first I read that stated about the passage being a departure not a falling away. Dr. Andy Woods (The Falling Away: Spiritual Departure or Physical Rapture?: A Second Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3, February 2018) also came to the same conclusion. And now you come along and would expect us to believe that it has no relevance. Well, Kenneth Wuest died in 1962 and to date, no one has been able to refute his analysis of the text on a Greek textual basis.
Then you come along and all of a sudden we are to throw everything out and bow to your gifted insight on the scripture.
No thanks. Pass
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Christ speaks of His Church in Matthew chapter 16, and the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
Therefore, the Book of Matthew is addressed to the Jewish Church.
Your claim is intended to make the pretrib doctrine work, but falls apart in the passages above.
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If ever there was circular reasoning.You,however made no attempt to prove the correctness of your interpreting methods in your initial response to my post and you have now recused yourself from further discussing the topic.This is a pity as you will not get the opportunity to see how wrong you are.
One clear proof of this was seen in your poor handling of I Thessalonians 5.You correctly identified two sets of persons being referred to in the passage in question but then leapt to the conclusion that the two groups were not being warned about the same event.Just basic comprehension would disabuse you of such a conclusion as the passage clearly shows why the two groups will be affected differently by the same event.If this was not easily understood then I also showed that the terms used to describe the event are varied and refers to actions affecting both the saints and the wicked.
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Not true.Noah walked into the ark and was in the midst of the destruction.Just a short walk over the deck would prove fatal.No rapture here.
Not true again.Lot walked away from the area of danger.He was so close to it that his wife was destroyed because of her disobedience.No rapture here.
Did not say they were not removed from the area of wrath.I said:
"Neither Noah nor Lot were removed from the earth.Both were in close proximity to the disaster around them."
Not sure about where seven or three and a half years comes from but I don't need a strategy,neither do you.We simply need to trust in God to deliver us as He has delivered His people in the past and even as He has promised to do in the future.[See,Exodus 8:22,23; 9:4,25,26; 10:21-23;12:12,13; Daniel 3:19-28;6:16-24; Ezekiel 9:1-6;I Peter 4:17;Revelation 7:1-3;3:10]
Or trust in Him to keep the soul even though the flesh may perish.[See,Luke 21:15-18;Acts 7:59]
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Again you read without understanding and are simply repeating what you have been taught.If only we would think for ourselves.We must first identify what had troubled the people of Thessalonica in order to understand what the comforting was about.Paul clearly says:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."(I Thessalonians 4:13)
The concern was about the saints who had died and yet the Lord had not returned.Paul assured them:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."(I Thessalonians 4:14)
Even as Jesus rose from the dead so will the saints that are dead rise at Jesus' coming.
Paul emphasized:
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."(I Thessalonians 4:15)
He then explained the sequence of events at the Lord's coming:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words."(I Thessalonians 4:16-18)
The comfort was,primarily,the dead in Christ shall rise first,but also,all will meet and be with the Lord forever.Nothing about a rapture to escape persecutions.Paul had previously mentioned these and the people were told to expect persecutions and so an escape from them by a rapture could not be the reason for the words of comfort.
"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:"(I Thessalonians 2:14)
"That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know."(I Thessalonians 3:3,4)
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I think the key is that they also deny pretty much all of Revelation, or make it so allegorical it becomes meaningless ... which is a huge affront to God.
If you add up all of the fatalities of people and animal life from all of the seals, trumpets and bowls, and keep track of all of the catastrophic events happening to the earth, sky and space, there isn't going to be much left of humanity or the earth by the time Christ comes back.
Having your Costco buckets of survival food and escaping to your safe place aint gonna cut it.
The blessed hope for rapture deniers, however, applies to them as well as to us, and I'll be pleased to meet them on the way up.
As the signs of the coming world system are becoming more evident,the preaching of the secret rapture theory becomes more fervent as people are told to hurry up and get saved,so they will be raptured, before the effects of the world system(the beast) is felt.Herein lies the root of the deception;--escapism--- as Christians seek to escape not only from the trouble this system will cause them, but also escape they themselves being identified as being part and parcel of that system at this time.All this is aided by a lack of understanding of the scriptures which would cause the secret rapture theory to be exposed as a deception.
Jesus, in instructing His disciples on what to expect in the days after His ascension,spoke extensively about His second coming.These admonitions were recorded in;Matthew 24:3-51;Mark 13:1-37;Luke 21:6-36;and they show clearly,it is after tribulations, afflictions and perplexities,that Christ comes for His elect.[Matthew 24:29-31;Mark 13:24-27;Luke 21:25-31]
With such clear instructions it is amazing how any one could formulate a teaching about a tribulation after a secret rapture of the saints.It should be noted that the warnings given by the Lord in Mark 13:33-36;Matthew 24:42-51;Luke 21:34-36;are echoed by Paul as he speaks to the saints at Thessalonica,they both encourage the saints to watch and be sober as the Lord will come as a thief in the night.[I Thessalonians 5:2-6] While many accept that the accounts given in the gospels speak of the Lord Jesus coming for His Church,others say the elect spoken of in these passages is not the elect of the Church but the elect of Israel.No one has been able to prove this from the scriptures and several areas of contradiction arise.
Why did Jesus not speak of the secret rapture of the Church to these men who are to be the foundation of the Church?
How could He leave out this important event which would occur before He comes for the "elect of Israel" and yet still mention His coming for Israel? N.B.Jesus had already introduced the concept of the Church to His disciples but had said the house of Israel was left desolate.[Matthew 16:18,19;18:15-17;23:37-39:Ephesians 2:19,20]
The fallacy of this argument is evident and should have put to rest any thought of a rapture,before tribulation theory,but other misunderstood scriptures are used to perpetuate this myth.
One of the main supporting reasons given,to sustain the secret rapture before tribulation theory,is that,because Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation,then,they have to be taken from the world before tribulation begins.
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Thessalonians 5:9;Luke 21:36]
One of the promises to the Church in Philadelphia also speaks of then being kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.[Revelation 3:10:See also Romans 2:7-9]
This type of reasoning puts into question God's ability to protect,if Christians have to be taken from the world in order to be protected from tribulations(temptations),perplexities and distress.This is not supported by the scriptures.Jesus asked:
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."[John 17;15]
The apostle Paul added:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man....,but will with the temptation also make a way to escape,that ye may bear it."[I Corinthians 10:13;See also,II Thessalonians 3:3;Matthew 6:13;26:41;II Peter 2:9]
The promise of the Lord therefore is to keep us in the world but away from evil and to strengthen us to bear temptations,(tribulations) not for us to escape from the world in order to escape these things.Hence to be kept from the hour of temptation is to be enabled by God to bear it.To use the promise to the Church at Philadelphia as a support for a rapture before tribulation is misleading as this promise was made to a Church in Asia in the first century.Also the Church at Smyrna was told to expect tribulation.[See, Revelation 2:9,10]
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Even a baby reading that passage should be able to see this but these men blinded by their erroneous theology can't.
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