Unless You Eat My Flesh And Drink My Blood

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Christ is present under the bread and wine in a sacramental union. Catholics and Orthodox believe it does change, but we cannot normally observe the change. Either way, it has the physical properties of bread and wine.

Isnt Christ always present among believers anyway? (Matthew 18:20)

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

Dave-W said:
The thief on the cross was saved under the Mosaic covenant.

Which part of the Mosaic covenant?

FireDragon76 · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
Isnt Christ always present among believers anyway? (Matthew 18:20)

Not physically, no.

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Not physically, no.

So only in transformed bread and wine is he physically present? The question remains, why does the Lords body still look and taste like bread and wine?

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
Isnt Christ always present among believers anyway? (Matthew 18:20)

If two of us come to an agreement on anything which we want to bring before God, our prayer will receive God's attention. Such an agreement can be wrought only by the Spirit.

The Church may continue with two individuals. These individuals' prayer brings down God's answer, thereby confirming the Church's character.

Wherever the minimum number composing a church are gathered as believers in Christ, there he is, till time's end, in their midst. This is true of Christ's public profession.

FireDragon76 · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
So only in transformed bread and wine is he physically present? The question remains, why does the Lords body still look and taste like bread and wine?

From a Lutheran understanding, it still is bread and wine with all the physical properties associated with that, but it also is the body and blood of Christ. The bread and wine mediate Christ's physical presence sacramentally. We believe this is so because Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood".

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

I believe that when paul talked about not discerning the body (1 Corinthians 11:29), that He wasn't talking about the Lords supper, but was in fact referring to the members of the church (Matthew 25:40, 1 Corinthians 12:27)

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
I believe that when paul talked about not discerning the body (1 Corinthians 11:29), that He wasn't talking about the Lords supper...

The unworthy makes no distinction between an ordinary meal and the Communion meal; they don't realize that Christ's body and blood are truly present, and that thoughtlessly using the Sacrament results in God's punishment. For they that approach Christ's table in frivolousness will receive Christ's body and blood as that of their Judge, who'll demand an account of them with reckoning, since the behavior indicates unbelief.

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
The unworthy makes no distinction between an ordinary meal and the Communion meal; they don't realize that Christ's body and blood are truly present, and that thoughtlessly using the Sacrament results in God's punishment. For they that approach Christ's table in frivolousness will receive Christ's body and blood as that of their Judge, who'll demand an account of them with reckoning, since the behavior indicates unbelief.

How does one labor for the Lords supper?

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

BNR32FAN · Mar 21, 2019

WebersHome said:
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Regardless of how Christ is interpreted; one thing is for sure: unless people somehow eat his flesh and drink his blood, they have no life in them; viz: they are quite dead on the hoof.

● John 6:53 . . Jesus said: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you."

The kind of life about which he spoke isn't organic life; rather, it's a supernatural kind of life.

● John 6:54 . . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

According to John 10:28, eternal life is an imperishable kind of life. In other words; people have to obtain it only once, and they never have to obtain it again because eternal life cannot die, nor does it spoil or decay. Were that not true, then God would've died of old age long ago.
_

What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10? Was Jesus warning His faithful 11 apostles about the consequences of doing something they were incapable of doing? If they were incapable of losing salvation what does verse 6 mean?

BNR32FAN · Mar 21, 2019

Personally I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically referring to following His teachings and commandments and receiving Him within us.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
How does one labor for the Lords supper?

Huh? I didn't say anything about "labor for the Lords supper".

W2L said:
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Christ knew them. He tells them that the reason why they sought him was a wrong one. They hadn't given his signs the proper attention; they were lacking in the grasp that these signs were his divinity's proofs.

They sought him because their concern was for their stomachs. But their efforts were worthy of a higher cause; they should work for that food which will preserve them unto life. That powerful food alone was worth acquiring.

We shouldn't seek Jesus for earthly things' sake. We should come to him because he gives us eternal food.

This spiritual food, which would strengthen unto life, Christ would give to them freely, out of love. For he'd gone forth from God, as a proof of which he bore God's seal.

The day's miracle and other signs showed that God had commissioned Jesus as the One to give the food which nourishes unto life. They were a proof that Christ could give life to such as accepted him in faith.

By saying, "Man's Son," Jesus indicates that God has a Son whom people can see, take hold of, hear, and feel; as John also says of him 'Which we've heard, seen and touched; that same Mary-born person, he'll give you a food.'

Some at least were impressed by Jesus' statement that they should labor to get tbat powerful food, and they wanted to know what they must do to make themselves fit to perform such works as would please God.

Jesus corrects their idea that they must do something for their salvation. There's only one thing which they should do, and that's to believe on him whom God has sent.

We must accept and hold Jesus and his salvation. That's our work. This faith must be wrought by God and cannot come into being without God.

When God has worked faith in us, then we're active in accepting that food which nourishes unto life.

W2L · Mar 21, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Huh? I didn't say anything about "labor for the Lords supper".

Christ knew them. He tells them that the reason why they sought him was a wrong one. They hadn't given his signs the proper attention; they were lacking in the grasp that these signs were his divinity's proofs.

They sought him because their concern was for their stomachs. But their efforts were worthy of a higher cause; they should work for that food which will preserve them unto life. That powerful food alone was worth acquiring.

We shouldn't seek Jesus for earthly things' sake. We should come to him because he gives us eternal food.

This spiritual food, which would strengthen unto life, Christ would give to them freely, out of love. For he'd gone forth from God, as a proof of which he bore God's seal.

The day's miracle and other signs showed that God had commissioned Jesus as the One to give the food which nourishes unto life. They were a proof that Christ could give life to such as accepted him in faith.

By saying, "Man's Son," Jesus indicates that God has a Son whom people can see, take hold of, hear, and feel; as John also says of him 'Which we've heard, seen and touched; that same Mary-born person, he'll give you a food.'

Some at least were impressed by Jesus' statement that they should labor to get tbat powerful food, and they wanted to know what they must do to make themselves fit to perform such works as would please God.

Jesus corrects their idea that they must do something for their salvation. There's only one thing which they should do, and that's to believe on him whom God has sent.

We must accept and hold Jesus and his salvation. That's our work. This faith must be wrought by God and cannot come into being without God.

When God has worked faith in us, then we're active in accepting that food which nourishes unto life.

Some people say that the bread in John 6 is the Lords supper. Jesus says to labor for that bread, so how does one labor for the Lords supper?

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
Some people say...

Maybe ask those people.

FireDragon76 · Mar 21, 2019

W2L said:
I believe that when paul talked about not discerning the body (1 Corinthians 11:29), that He wasn't talking about the Lords supper, but was in fact referring to the members of the church (Matthew 25:40, 1 Corinthians 12:27)

It could be, and I tend to favor that position, but that wouldn't change our doctrine concerning the Supper, which comes from Christ himself.

WebersHome · Mar 21, 2019

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Let's assume for the moment that Jesus laid down a rule for Christians that says "Thou shalt drink wine in my communion service." Would that rule be inflexible? No, and here's why:

The Jews' sabbath law is very narrow. In point of fact, the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God imposes capital punishment for sabbath violators. (Ex 31:14-15)

Now, that is very interesting because Jesus broke the sabbath on a number of occasions, and when doing so based his actions upon the principle that human life, safety, and health trump strict observance of religious law.

I personally do not think it's okay for Christian churches to start children on the road to drinking by giving them even so much as little sips of alcohol, and I seriously doubt that Christ would condemn me for feeling that way.

● Matt 18:6 . . If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

● Rom 14:21 . . . It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
_

FireDragon76 · Mar 21, 2019

WebersHome said:
.
Let's assume for the moment that Jesus laid down a rule for Christians that says "Thou shalt drink wine in my communion service." Would that rule be inflexible? No, and here's why:

The Jews' sabbath law is very narrow. In point of fact, the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God imposes capital punishment for sabbath violators. (Ex 31:14-15)

Now, that is very interesting because Jesus broke the sabbath on a number of occasions, and when doing so based his actions upon the principle that human life, safety, and health trump strict observance of religious law.

I personally do not think it's okay for Christian churches to start children on the road to drinking by giving them even so much as little sips of alcohol, and I seriously doubt that Christ would condemn me for feeling that way.

Thank you for your concern but we've been doing it for 2000 years and we aren't about to stop just because a few people in the US are teetotallers.

●

Matt 18:6 . . If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

All the more reason why we should not deprive them of Christ himself in the sacrament.

ewq1938 · Mar 22, 2019

W2L said:
So only in transformed bread and wine is he physically present? The question remains, why does the Lords body still look and taste like bread and wine?

It's only symbolism. The bread isn't literally his body, wine isn't literally his blood. It's to remind us of his sacrifice. To take it so far as to insist it is literally flesh and blood is taking it much further than ever intended.

Dave-W · Mar 22, 2019

W2L said:
Which part of the Mosaic covenant?

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

By the thief speaking kindly to our Lord, he could be forgiven his sins and enter into Paradise without the otherwise needed sacrifices.

WebersHome · Mar 22, 2019

.

FireDragon76 said:
Thank you for your concern but we've been doing it for 2000 years and we aren't about to stop just because a few people in the US are teetotallers.

Jesus encountered that attitude a number of times. Many of his Jewish opponents were more concerned about the practice of their religion than the welfare of their fellow man.

● Matt 12:8 . . For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.

If Christ is the Lord of the sabbath, then he most certainly is Lord of his own communion service. If he is okay with exempting children and alcoholics from sipping wine in order to protect them from debauchery, then just who are you to argue? Are you lord of the Son of Man?

● Matt 18:6 . . If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

● Rom 14:21 . . . It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

NOTE: According to Matt 12:7 and Hos 6:6, when people have more concern for the practice of their religion than they do for the welfare of their fellow man; God prefers they not come to church on Sunday morning.
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