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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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This of putting charismatics under the impression that are all deceived, and all of what they say about gifts and manifestations in their churches are a lie and not of the Holy spirit, is dangerous stuff for the people who hold this view, they may be speaking against God, myself i'm sure they are speaking against God, because the Holy spirit did to me a lot of things in a charismatic / pentecostal church.

Well, it is not wrong to point out if men are doing specific sins or if they are acting in an unbiblical way. Just because certain men are in the Charismatic movement does not shield them from me in correcting them in doing wrong. As I said to you before, I am open to the fact that there may be a small unknown group of Charismatics who do operate by all of the gifts in secret in a biblical way. I believe this to be a 5% or 10% chance. But the rest of what I have seen in the majority of Charismatic movement is not biblical (from what I have seen so far).

For example:
Rodney Howard-Browne is the founder of the Holy laughter movement. Howard said this to God in public prayer:

"'Either You come down here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch You,' he prayed in desperation" (The Touch of God, p. 73).​

The arrogance to demand anything from God reveals and attitude of self-love. This is reflected in Howard-Browne's demand that if God didn't do something for him he would ascend into heaven and touch God. Sound familiar?

I will give you a hint.

Tower of Babel.


In the following spoiler button, you will find an account of one of Rodney Howard-Browne's meetings:

It is disturbing to say the least.

Howard-Browne calls a pastor forward who, the night before, had said he was ready to check himself into a mental clinic. Promising a double dose of the Holy Spirit this night, Howard-Browne lays his hand on the man, who promptly falls to the floor.

Howard-Browne then puts one foot on the man's stomach and pronounces that he will go forth forever changed. This sets the stage for working his audience into laughter, and disproves the claims that he does not provoke laughing responses:

"Someone said, 'Why'd you put your foot on him?' Because I didn't feel like bending down and putting my hand on him."

The audience erupts in laughter; from this point on things begin to roll. He then does similarly with the man's wife. Having fallen, she prays somewhat quietly. Howard-Browne tells her not to pray. He exhorts her with the words, "Joy! joy! joy!"

One person after another is called out to receive his anointing. Those who do not laugh, he prompts to do so. Most take quite a bit of prompting. One man lies there, also praying quietly. This is how Howard-Browne addresses him:

"Stop praying now and let the joy bubble out your belly. Joy. Joy. Joy. Don't pray! Laugh!"

The audience laughs all the more as he goes from person to person prodding them to laugh. If it seems to be belaboring the point it's to demonstrate that, contrary to claims that holy laughter is spontaneous and uncontrollable, it is more often induced through coercion. Going back to a man he had kicked in the foot, Howard-Browne chides him:

"Why didn't you listen to the preacher? Why didn't you listen to the preacher? I said laugh!"

The man is coerced. He erupts into an obviously strained attempt to laugh under this intimidation. So much for the claims that the laughter is uncontrollable and spontaneous.

Then comes Howard-Browne's ridicule of those who do not wish to enter into his laugh parade. Making a dour face he continues:

"Some people say, 'I don't want that joy brother Rodney. [His face becomes even more dour.] I'm happy just like I am. My great grandfather was sad. My grandfather was sad. And when he died -- just before he died -- he looked at me and said, 'Son, will you carry on the family tradition?' And I said, 'Yes, dad.'"

Hoots and hollering erupt from the audience as they join in laughing to derision those who don't enter in.

After some more banter calling people "ugly things" who aren't open to the Holy Spirit (read "open to falling down and laughing"), Howard-Browne slaps on the side of the head a man sitting on the front pew. The man falls over onto the pew, shaking his legs and hands in the air. The audience continues to roll with laughter.

Another man comes forward, goes down under Howard-Browne's touch and begins to pray. Says Howard-Browne:

"Get out of the praying mode and get into the rejoicing mode! Pray when you go home! Lord, have mercy! I mean, if their prayers had been working they wouldn't have had to come up here in the first place."

A Christian author observes this about holy laughter:

There is an uncanny and even creepy lack of bodily control exhibited by people who are involved in holy laughter. I have seen many videos and a few up close examples, and in most of these, especially the many more severe cases (which are considered to be the most spiritual) we see the subject being unable to control themselves. This is a stronger lack of control than someone under the influence of narcotics or alcohol. In fact many people even appear to be possessed for lengthy periods of time, and flail around their bodies to the point of physical harm. Conversely the Scriptures require that a man of God be “sober” (1 Peter 4:7, 5:8). Someone who is sober has the ability to judge his actions. Furthermore, the Holy Scriptures also compel us to be self-controlled, we are urged continually and many times to have a mind that I ready for action and a body that is under control (1 Pet 1:18, Prov 25:28, 2 Tim 1:17, Titus 1:8). In fact one sign that the Holy Spirit is indeed doing a work in you is self control (Gal 5:23, 2 Tim 1:7). This is not possible when one is on the floor laughing and cannot even string two words together before unraveling at the seams.


Sources used:
http://jbeard.users.rapidnet.com/bdm/Psychology/holylaugh.htm
Is holy laughter in the Bible?
 
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JAL

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I would not want to trade in my Bible for an experience.
A followup on this. Sainthood is induction into an ongoing relatoinship with the Father, as noted in my initial response to you. It is experience by definition.

I forgot to mention that Saul - before he became Paul - is an excellent counterexample to your statement. He had plenty of written Word, right? Fat lot of good it did him. What he lacked, until the Road to Damascus, was EXPERIENCE (he saw the Lord in a vision), which changed EVERYTHING. The church doesn't need more Bible, it needs more experience. In fact, Paul was far more effective than the average evangelist, because he DELIVERED EXPERIENCE TO HIS AUDIENCE.

The prophetic gift has the ability to do that. How do I know this? First, listen to what Paul says about his preaching: "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit's power" (1Cor 2:4).

That's an EMPIRICAL demonstration. He showed them miracles, right? Yes, but also VISIONS. A prophet is a man with visions. Part of his gift is the ability to transmit some of those revelations to others (by God's aid of course). That's precisely what Gal 3:2 is referring to:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. "

Now THAT'S what I would call 'anointed preaching'. The ability to literally place the audience - with 3-D vision - into the ACTUAL VICINITY OF THE CRUCIFIXION.

How do I know that Paul is referring to a vision of Christ? Again, in my discussions of Gal 3, I kept stressing verse 6 where Paul adduces Abraham's experience at Gen 15 AS PROOF of all his statements in this chapter - he's referring to a theophany where Abraham saw the Lord face to face in a vision!

Ok let's go back to 1Corinthians:

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit's power" (1Cor 2:4).

So the Kingdom of God is NOT a matter of talk, but of power, then, right? Obviously Paul's words indicate a scorn of ordinary talk. Two chapters later, he becomes explicit on this point:

"Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?" (1cor 4).

Above Paul gave us HIS definition of the Kingdom-on-Earth, wherever it is duly established. And here's what cessationists want us to believe:
(1) Back then, the Kingdom of God was a matter of power, not of talk.
(2) Today, it is a matter of talk, not of power.
That's insanity. That's too torturous a reading of Paul for we continuationists to accept.
 
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One thing may help you. That is the word "cease," pauo in 1 Corinthians 13, that cessationists are basing most of their theory on. That word is used three times in the New Testament and it means "pause." Tongues, as well as the other gifts, will only pause, but never be completely obliterated from this covenant, but it is according to the prophecy in Joel 2 that started on the Day of Pentecost when the covenant came into effect. There it speaks of the "early and latter rain". That is precisely what we see in church history and is according to Scripture, not myths. Pentecost was the early rain, and these last days are the latter rain. This is also shown in another end time prophecy in Hosea 6:1-3.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth
.

This prophecy is 2 days = 2000 years, and the 1000 year Millennium.

Amillenniumists obviously never read or understood this prophecy for Israel. :doh:

I never understood those who some reject a real physical 1,000 year reign of Christ. It clearly says there is one in Revelation. But that's another topic (of course).

As for 1 Corinthians 13: It would seem at first glance that Continuationism is true based on the phrase "face to face" because it does refer to Moses looking at the Lord in Exodus. But looking closer, Moses did wear a veil.

I see this veil as the bible/glass/mirror that we see our reflection in within both 1 Corinthians 13, and James 1. Moses also did receive the Law from God, as well. This was an important part of the reason why Moses was encountering God. In James 1, the perfect law of liberty is mentioned. This is in reference to the Word and how we need to obey the Word (perfect law of liberty). If we don't we are like a man who looks in a mirror and forgets what he looks like. 1 Corinthians 13 says we look through a mirror darkly. It is obscured. But when we see in the mirror face to face (our spiritual reflection being transformed into the image of Christ vs. our own physical body type image, we will be conformed like unto Christ's image). This is how I see it. The pieces of the puzzle fit together neatly when looking at the whole of Scripture.
 
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To all:

Saul (Paul) had to heed God's Word and obey Him after the Lord revealed Himself to Him. He had to hear Ananias and his instruction. If he refused to surrender unto Ananias and His Word, Saul (Paul) would not have been saved. But God knew what Paul was going to do. The Lord knew Saul (Paul) was going to be obedient to the heavenly vision from Jesus. This is a far cry in support of the Charismatic movement. Yes, God operated by miracles and by power in the early church. He needed to. To confirm the word of God with signs, wonders, and miracles following (See Mark 16:20, and Hebrews 2:3-4).

Today, many in the Charismatic movement I have seen are not acting in a biblical way. Just check what they do with the Word of God. If you are looking to walk by faith and follow the truth instead of seeking after a feeling, you will discover the truth to this. Again, I am not saying all Charismatics are false. It is possible that there is some unknown group that is in hiding somewhere that may be operating in a biblical way exactly like the early church. There may be some small church in a small town in the middle of nowhere (that is against the internet) who are doing it right. The chances of this are slim, but anything is possible. My encouragement to all is to check everything with the Word of God and do not be so eager for an experience, but study and pray and ask the Lord for the understanding on this topic before diving in first.

For those who are involved in it already are obviously going to defend it.

I am talking to those who are truly want to be objective here.

In any event, may the Lord's goodness be upon you all.
 
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JAL

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To all:

Saul (Paul) had to heed God's Word and obey Him after the Lord revealed Himself to Him. He had to hear Ananias and his instruction. If he refused to surrender unto Ananias and His Word, Saul (Paul) would not have been saved. But God knew what Paul was going to do. The Lord knew Saul (Paul) was going to be obedient to the heavenly vision from Jesus. This is a far cry in support of the Charismatic movement. Yes, God operated by miracles and by power in the early church. He needed to. To confirm the word of God with signs, wonders, and miracles following (See Mark 16:20, and Hebrews 2:3-4).
You're trying to shoehorn such verses into your theology, knowing deep down they don't fit. What do you mean that Paul 'obeyed the vision'? The message intimated by the vision contradicted EVERYTHING Paul had believed from exegesis. How does Paul's disobedience to the written Word suddenly (how convenient) constitute obedience in your view?

The passage clearly shows that direct revelation has a higher authority than exegesis if it provides stronger feelings of certainty than exegesis did. This stands in unequivocal contradiction to your earlier claim, 'I wouldn't trade in the written Word for an experience'.

Yes, God operated by miracles and by power in the early church. He needed to.
No. He's God. He didn't NEED to. He OPTED to. He opted for a charismatic ecclesiology and laid it down in Scripture as a paradigm for us to follow.

He needed to. To confirm the word of God with signs, wonders, and miracles following (See Mark 16:20, and Hebrews 2:3-4).
Yes to confirm the Word to those who do not yet believe it. That's precisely how miracles could be of inestimable value today. And if the church were on track, you'd be seeing a lot of them.

Today, many in the Charismatic movement I have seen are not acting in a biblical way. Just check what they do with the Word of God. If you are looking to walk by faith and follow the truth instead of seeking after a feeling, you will discover the truth to this.
Later I plan to demonstrate that a relationship with the Father can ONLY be defined in terms of feelings and sensations, as Jesus Himself intimated at John 5:37.

My encouragement to all is to check everything with the Word of God and do not be so eager for an experience, but study and pray and ask the Lord for the understanding on this topic before diving in first.
You'll deeply regret that position on judgment day. Maturity can ONLY be defined in terms of the intensity of the experience (see Num 12:8). I'll cover this fact more later.
 
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Der Alte

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No offense, but this really is not the topic of the thread.
Blessings to you in the Lord.
Below is what I was responding to, if it is not the topic of this thread why did you post it?
<J0>...However, they are in err because they claim certain words in the original languages changes the meaning of our English translations in our bibles. In essence, they know better than the translators of the Bible. This kind of handling of the Scriptures never sits well with me because it looks like folks merely trying to change the Bible using the "original languages" card (When in reality nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times; Only in believing God's Word that says that had preserved His Word for our generation today is their hope and trust in what His Word plainly says). For we received the word not in the wisdom of men, but as the very words of God (See 1 Thessalonians 2:13)....<J0>
 
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Below is what I was responding to, if it is not the topic of this thread why did you post it?
<J0>...However, they are in err because they claim certain words in the original languages changes the meaning of our English translations in our bibles. In essence, they know better than the translators of the Bible. This kind of handling of the Scriptures never sits well with me because it looks like folks merely trying to change the Bible using the "original languages" card (When in reality nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times; Only in believing God's Word that says that had preserved His Word for our generation today is their hope and trust in what His Word plainly says). For we received the word not in the wisdom of men, but as the very words of God (See 1 Thessalonians 2:13)....<J0>

Going slightly off topic to reply to a person is one thing, but I am not obligated to continue in an off topic discussion about the proper interpretation of how to read the Bible. Words mean what they mean for a reason. If you do not agree with today's translations of certain words, then that is up to you. The point here is whether or not you believe the miraculous gifts have continued or not (Based on the whole of what Scripture says). You are either arguing for that position or you or not. This thread is not solely isolated to just one verse or text but a systematic approach with Scripture on the subject.

May God bless you;
And may you please be well today.
 
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To all:

God abides by His Word. In the early church He did miracles to confirm the word (Mark 16:20) (Hebrews 2:3-4).

Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:


In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the amor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, 16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

So it was more than just feelings or an experience alone that Christ had or gave to others. Jesus came with power... yes... but He also was confirmed by the Word of God (the Scriptures).

Without this sure Word, there is no foundation. For by feelings alone people can be deceived.

For it is written...

full


The full version of this verse:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
(Jeremiah 17:9).

It says the heart is deceitful above ALL THINGS.
This is why we need God's Word as a sure foundation in our walk of faith with God.
For when we stand before the Lord we will have to explain everything to Him in why we did what we did. There is nothing hid from the Lord that will not be revealed (See Luke 8:17).
 
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NBB

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To all:

God abides by His Word. In the early church He did miracles to confirm the word (Mark 16:20) (Hebrews 2:3-4).

Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:


In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the amor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, 16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

So it was more than just feelings or an experience alone that Christ had or gave to others. Jesus came with power... yes... but He also was confirmed by the Word of God (the Scriptures).

Without this sure Word, there is no foundation. For by feelings alone people can be deceived.

For it is written...

full


The full version of this verse:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
(Jeremiah 17:9).

It says the heart is deceitful above ALL THINGS.
This is why we need God's Word as a sure foundation in our walk of faith with God.
For when we stand before the Lord we will have to explain everything to Him in why we did what we did. There is nothing hid from the Lord that will not be revealed (See Luke 8:17).

Paul learned the gospel through 'experiences', actually if we have no experiences with God, where is the gospel in our lives? something needs to happen especially in our spiritual life.
The gospel is based on the 'faulty' (you would say) 'experiences' of people.... why you trust the bible if it is based on peoples experiences.
 
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Paul learned the gospel through 'experiences', actually if we have no experiences with God, where is the gospel in our lives? something needs to happen especially in our spiritual life.

No. He was told about what to do by the word of Ananias. Ananias gave Him words that He learned by God so as to help Saul (Paul) to become saved. The same thing happened between Peter and Cornelius. Cornelius was not saved unto Peter gave Him the words (from God) for salvation.
 
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No. He was told about what to do by the word of Ananias. Ananias gave Him words that He learned by God so as to help Saul (Paul) to become saved. The same thing happened between Peter and Cornelius. Cornelius was not saved unto Peter gave Him the words (from God) for salvation.

Apart from the road experience, that was a experience meeting Jesus like that that was no man, he also says:

"But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ"

also


2 Corinthians 12:1 1

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

1 Corinthians 11:23

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread,

Ephesians 3:3-4

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Romans 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
 
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No. He was told about what to do by the word of Ananias. Ananias gave Him words that He learned by God so as to help Saul (Paul) to become saved. The same thing happened between Peter and Cornelius. Cornelius was not saved unto Peter gave Him the words (from God) for salvation.

Is like saying Jesus can't manifest himself to anyone because those can be 'false' 'feelings'.
 
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Apart from the road experience, that was a experience meeting Jesus like that that was no man, he also says:

"But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ"

Paul is talking specifically of the gospel message of Jesus Christ that was later revealed in detail to him by Jesus Christ. It was a more fuller revelation of the plan of salvation of how we have to have a belief that Jesus died for our sins and He was risen three days later on our behalf (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel of Christ's death and resurrection was first preached by Paul. He was the ministry of this gospel by Jesus Christ. Paul accepted the limited revelation of the plan of salvation at that time via Ananias. Even the thief on the cross did not hear the gospel, and yet he was saved. Even others at Pentecost did not hear the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection for salvation and yet they were saved.
 
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Paul is talking specifically of the gospel message of Jesus Christ that was later revealed in detail to him by Jesus Christ. It was a more fuller revelation of the plan of salvation of how we have to have a belief that Jesus died for our sins and He was risen three days later on our behalf (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel of Christ's death and resurrection was first preached by Paul. He was the ministry of this gospel by Jesus Christ. Paul accepted the limited revelation of the plan of salvation at that time via Ananias. Even the thief on the cross did not hear the gospel, and yet he was saved. Even others at Pentecost did not hear the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection for salvation and yet they were saved.

Jesus revealing things to people are experiences...
 
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Is like saying Jesus can't manifest himself to anyone because those can be 'false' 'feelings'.

Saul (Paul) was confirmed by the followers of Jesus who were all acting in accordance with the OT Holy Scriptures. Jesus quoted, and fulfilled many OT prophecies. Saul (Paul) was to be included in this. It was not just a feeling or experience alone where he never ran into the apostles and he never had any encounter with the Scriptures. Saul (Paul) himself was a Jew and he even quoted the Scriptures himself many times.
 
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Jesus revealing things to people are experiences...

Paul was an apostle. The last apostle. The prophets and apostles are the foundation of the saints with Christ being the chief corner stone. In house building you lay a foundation. Without this foundation laid, you cannot build your house correctly. The apostles were the foundation and the saints are built upon this foundation according to the plain reading of Scripture.
 
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NBB

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Saul (Paul) was confirmed by the followers of Jesus who were all acting in accordance with the OT Holy Scriptures. Jesus quoted, and fulfilled many OT prophecies. Saul (Paul) was to be included in this. It was not just a feeling or experience alone where he never ran into the apostles and he never had any encounter with the Scriptures. Saul (Paul) himself was a Jew and he even quoted the Scriptures himself many times.

You can't discard that revelations from the Lord are experiences and not scripture.
 
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NBB

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Paul was an apostle. The last apostle. The prophets and apostles are the foundation of the saints with Christ being the chief corner stone. In house building you lay a foundation. Without this foundation laid, you cannot build your house correctly. The apostles were the foundation and the saints are built upon this foundation according to the plain reading of Scripture.

Don't discard experiences from God as 'false' 'feelings', those are the best you can get.
 
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