Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Sorry, there is a fact here that is inescapable.
He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also
for the sins of the whole world.

= he did not save anyone. He only made salvation available for the self-righteous who then share in God glory.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

The term “takes away” means cut off or removed from the vine (Christ). The Greek word used is aírō which means

away

G142

G142

Lemma:

αἴρω

Transliteration:

aírō

Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The correct definition is referring to something that is attached to the vine in which this case means to remove or cut off.

and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The word used for “thrown or cast” is

cast

G906+G906

G906

Lemma:

βάλλω

Transliteration:

bállō

Pronounce:

bal'-lo

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert

Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.

If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So according to the Greek definitions anyone who does not produce fruit is cut off or removed from the vine (Christ) gathered and thrown away without care or regard to wither (dry up and waste away) then thrown (again without care or regard) into the fire to be burned. Nothing about these statements can result in salvation. Now consider who Jesus is speaking to. This takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has already left the group to go betray Jesus and only Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive grove in Gethsemane. So Jesus is giving this warning to His 11 faithful apostles who undoubtedly believed. So why would Jesus warn them of not abiding even explaining the consequences of not abiding if they were incapable of doing so and incapable of losing their salvation? What reason did Jesus give the goats for being condemn in Matthew 25:42? Notice the similarities in the works mentioned in Matthew 25:42-46 and James 2:15-16. These works have to do with love for others. Both of these are referring to a lack of love for others. So faith without works or bearing fruit is faith without love for others. Do you believe that type of faith is a saving faith brother?

TL/DR

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
= he did not save anyone. He only made salvation available for the self-righteous who then share in God glory.

That's not what it means.
You are claiming that only a few were chosen AGAINST THEIR WILL to be saved.
And everyone else will pay an eternal punishment for not being elected, thus created for eternal torment for the "sin" of NOT being elected. Right?

Sorry, the fact is inescapable.
Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
Salvation is AVAILABLE to everyone who believes.
To believe is to receive.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also
for the sins of the whole world.

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's not what it means.
You are claiming that only a few were chosen AGAINST THEIR WILL to be saved.
And everyone else will pay an eternal punishment for not being elected, thus created for eternal torment for the "sin" of NOT being elected. Right?

Sorry, the fact is inescapable.
Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
Salvation is AVAILABLE to everyone who believes.
To believe is to receive.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also
for the sins of the whole world.

Salvation frees our will, doesn't force it. Grace saves those who cannot choose Christ or believe. Not those who can. They need no savior. They have their own self-righteous souls to trust in.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
whom Jesus told he did not die for.

Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:15)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

Notice, not only did Jesus not die for them, they could not believe because of that.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Salvation frees our will, doesn't force it. Grace saves those who cannot choose Christ or believe. Not those who can. They need no savior. They have their own self-righteous souls to trust in.

Belief comes before salvation.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:15)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

Notice, not only did Jesus not die for them, they could not believe because of that.

That does not say "whom Jesus told he did not die for."
You are taking the analogy of the good shepherd too far.

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That does not say "whom Jesus told he did not die for."
You are taking the analogy of the good shepherd too far.

No, they could not believe because he did not die for them.

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Belief comes before salvation.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Belief is salvation. Faith is it's substance.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
No, they could not believe because he did not die for them.

Christ died for all.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Belief is salvation. Faith is it's substance.

Backwards again.

BNR32FAN · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
TL/DR

I don’t know what TL/DR means

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Backwards again.

Faith is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit. How can the Holy Spirit (salvation) be a fruit of the flesh choosing to believe?

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Christ died for all.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

All = gentiles too

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t know what TL/DR means

Too Long/Didn't Read
(TL/DR was made famous by James Damore, the Google
employee that was wrongfully fired for a memo)

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit. How can the Holy Spirit (salvation) be a fruit of the flesh choosing to believe?

Faith is also a gift of the Holy Spirit. (1Cor.12:9)
I think there is a whole range of faith to consider.
The fruit of the Spirit indicates a fully developed faith (harvestable ripeness)
The gift indicates an extraordinary ability in, or amount of, faith.

The faith chapter tells us that those who "come to" God "must believe that he exists" and "those who earnestly seek him" will be rewarded.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2019

Dave L said:
All = gentiles too

Toward the end of that chapter he writes:

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How is it that we are being called be Christ’s ambassadors?
How is it that God is making his appeal through us?
How is it that we can be reconciled to God as a matter of our free will?

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Faith is also a gift of the Holy Spirit. (1Cor.12:9)
I think there is a whole range of faith to consider.
The fruit of the Spirit indicates a fully developed faith (harvestable ripeness)
The gift indicates an extraordinary ability in, or amount of, faith.

The faith chapter tells us that those who "come to" God "must believe that he exists" and "those who earnestly seek him" will be rewarded.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

But the flesh can only produce sinful faith, i.e., the faith people have when buying cars or goods. And the flesh cannot discern Christ in truth. So even then it will choose a false reckoning of Christ for the wrong reasons. That's what I said earlier. All hear the same gospel but the flesh will make a law out of it and turn grace into works.

Dave L · Mar 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Toward the end of that chapter he writes:

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How is it that we are being called be Christ’s ambassadors?
How is it that God is making his appeal through us?
How is it that we can be reconciled to God as a matter of our free will?

= repentance.

Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

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