What about the "Armageddon" and "Gog Magog" Wars in Revelation?

ewq1938 said:

The evidence has been presented tha6 shows the war in Rev 19 is not the war found in Rev 20.

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Yes, they are the same war. It is because you got the timing of thousand years of Revelation 20 wrong and have overlooked the false prophets and christs - as the body of false prophet.

Revelation 13:14

• "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Revelation 16:14

• "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Revelation 19:20

• "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

These are not errors in the Church as some suppose, they are the teachings of false prophets and religious charlatans who will not listen to the truth of God's word. It is the gospel ramblings of those who have been deceived by the lusts in their own hearts, to follow the beast and seduce the Church by lying signs and miracles. For example, miracles that are not true, a gospel that is not the true gospel (that the true signs represented). These are not misguided, they are the misbegotten. This all takes place before the second coming, after the thousand years of Church ministry:

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Man is mocked and he is deceived by smooth words lips dripping with words like "praise the Lord," but God is not mocked. He knows the difference between error and rebellion. For he moves "his people" away from rebellion and false gospels. Do you think God would have allowed Paul to remain a Pharisee and chalk it up to him simply holding an error, or wink at it as a little misguidedness?

shilohsfoal said:

You sound much like you are full preterist?

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No, I believe in His future return.

LittleLambofJesus said:

What is the "Valley of Bones in Ezek 37 all about?

Eze 37:
9 Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” ' ”
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

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The resurrection of dry bones of the whole house of Israel is the spiritual resurrection or regeneration of ALL believers from Old Testament and New Testament all over the Earth. It is not about national Israel and her physical army as some supposed.

Just like a mother hen gathering her little chicks under it's wing............

G1996 ἐπισυνάγω (episynagō), which occurs 9 times in 6 verses

Mat 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Lk 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Mat 24:31
“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 1:33
And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
Mar 13:27
“And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Luke 12: 1
.

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Yes, the Jews were only a part of Spiritual Israel overall which Old Testament Israel was once represented as God's Kingdom on Earth. The "whole house of Israel" applies to all Jews and Gentiles in Christ who have been born again with the Holy Spirit (breath of God) from their spiritual depravity which the dry bones represented. Nothing to do with 70AD or Modern nation of Israel.

TribulationSigns said:

Yes, the Jews were only a part of Spiritual Israel overall which Old Testament Israel was once represented as God's Kingdom on Earth. The "whole house of Israel" applies to all Jews and Gentiles in Christ who have been born again with the Holy Spirit (breath of God) from their spiritual depravity which the dry bones represented. Nothing to do with 70AD

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How can the following passages have NOTHING to do with 70 AD? Especially the reference to apostate Jerusalem being the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her?

The resurrection of dry bones of the whole house of Israel is the spiritual resurrection or regeneration of ALL believers from Old Testament and New Testament all over the Earth.

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I agree with you here. When do you believe this took place (or do you believe it's a future event)?

mkgal1 said:

How can the following passages have NOTHING to do with 70 AD? Especially the reference to apostate Jerusalem being the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her?

Mat 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Lk 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

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If I may interject, what the Covenant Kingdom is, depends upon what the context is. There is the Covenant Kingdom that is in heaven, which we will inherit and enter when we die or when Christ comes again. And then there is the earthly Covenant Kingdom, which both believers and unbelievers are part of. The short version is that "there are two groups spoken about as Covenant people." There are the children that represent the Covenant. And then there are the true covenant children. Just like God says that there was Israel, and then there was Israel, meaning only one was the true Israel of God.

Romans 9:4

• "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

There are all the children who were/are part of the covenant Kingdom of God, and then there are the true born of God covenant children, the seed of Christ, which is only a remnant. It's my experience that "this" is where most of the confusion comes it. The lack of distinguishing between the two. These are all children of the Kingdom, but one of these groups is by profession only. For example:

Matthew 25:1-2

• "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
• And five of them were wise, and five were foolish."

This imagery is of all the Covenanted kingdom children, but only five of them are truly saved that they will enter into the true kingdom of God. The foolish ones are the professed believers. Just like there were many "of" the Covenanted congregation Israel, but only a remnant were truly saved Israel. In simple terms, there is a visible Covenant kingdom on earth (whether its through Israel of Old Testament and the Churches of New Testament) within which are both saved and unsaved professing Christians. And then there is the indivisible Covenant kingdom on earth (the true body of Christ) and all these elect have all been washed in the blood of the Lamb. They are both called children of the kingdom. Just as God called all Israel His Covenant People, children of the kingdom collectively, and yet only a remnant of them were His people spiritually. Likewise, people in the New Testament congregation (church) today are His Covenant People, children of the kingdom collectively, and yet not all of them are truly saved redeemed either. That's why God in Scripture could declare that He pours out His wrath out on "His People." Because they are only His people "externally," or "corporately" not eternally. God NEVER pours out His wrath on His eternal people. Selah.

Therefore, it is the external believers the one who were responsble for the killing of God's prophets and Saints.

Matthew 23:37-38

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

What house is this when Christ spoke it? It was the Old Testament congregation of Israel. It is the Lord's Covenant congregation could only be left desolate "because" they were the external Covenant Kingdom. Christ was talking about the FALL of the unfaithful Old testament Congregation of Israel here. Right there! Liekwise, the Lord's New Testament covenant congregation today (the Church) can only be left desolate because they are are the external Covenant kingdom where professed Christians and their false prophets and christs rules. It's the only place where apostasy can stand, where the man of sin can rule in God's house. Selah!

The external "Covenant or Promissory kingdom" is that special relationship that God has with those who are called by His name. They are Covenanted by their own consent and profession to be part of the children of God. It is a conditional covenant. In the time before the cross, it was the covenant congregation of Israel. Which is also why she fell. They broke the covenant. After the cross, it is the New Testament Covenant congregation made up of all nations. The congregation takes the name of God, and with it comes the responsibility. They also can fall in like manner as Israel did which is what Babylon the Great of Revelation 18 is referring to! There are conditional promises implicitly made to the external covenant community (the visible church) Israel, and rebellion means God's judgment upon it. Of course keeping these precepts will save no one, but they are there to direct the "true believers" to the object of faith that can, which is Christ! For example, the desire to faithfully keep God's laws are one of the evidences of faith and true love, not a reason for covenant salvation.

An external covenant congregation exists to be the outward sign of our professed relationship with God. Just as the nation Israel was with her outward sign of God's people. Even in a sense, as circumcision or water baptism was/is an outward sign of a Covenant (promissory) relationship with God. It didn't/doesn't mean that everyone that took this profession or sign was redeemed, but that they received that covenant signification, made them externally God's covenant people. The same principle here. And indeed this is how/why the signification could be taken away and given to another group entirely. Obviously!

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Clearly, God is declaring that the external covenant congregation (representation of God's covenant people) is no longer the nation of Israel. It's "taken from" the nation of Israel. It was then "given to" the New Testament congregation, which made up of all peoples, including the Jews. This is the very same covenant concept that God illustrates in the symbolism of the Gentile branches being grafted into Israel, the external Covenant Olive Tree. In other words, this congregation is now the Kingdom of God represented on earth. The covenant kingdom representation (taken from Israel) has been given to them. And they likewise can be branches of this Olive tree "cut off" by unbelief, just as Israel was, if they fall into unbelief. So again, obviously, this is not an eternal Covenant relationship, but an external one. One that can be broken by unbelief. As I said, there are conditional promises implicitly made to the external covenant Church. Keeping these precepts will save no one, but they are there to direct the "true believers" to the object of faith that can, which is Christ! And so that we make our calling and election sure by examining ourselves, that we are truly in the faith of Christ. Something which few people do these days. The kingdom taken from Israel and given to the Church is this group Covenant (promissory) relationship with God. Indeed, that it could be taken away from one group, and that it could be given to another group, is evidence in itself what it is, and what it is not, and what it can never be.

So my point is, the verses you quoted in Matthew 23 and Luke 13 is about the fall of Old testament congregation when Christ spoke it and when He went to the Cross (and died for 3 days), but in three days, Christ did resurrect the temple (representative of the congregation) through the church. It all happened long before 70AD.

Mat 24:31
“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 1:33
And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
Mar 13:27
“And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Luke 12: 1

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Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are speaking about the Second Coming with the rapture of the Elect from all over the Earth (four winds) at the Second Coming. Not Jersualem in 70AD.

ewq1938 said:

Is Ezekiel 38-39 before the Millennium?

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Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 take place at the end of Church age (which 1,000 years millennium kingdom represents) right prior to Second Coming.

LittleLambofJesus said:

However, 70 ad fulfilled the 2nd part Isaiah 61:2.

I view 1st century Jerusalem as the great City in Revelation and thus Armageddon, which would mean the Amills are correct with them being in the 1000yr period while Satan is bound.

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I do not see anywhere in Scripture that justifies 70AD Jerusalem as the great city of Revelation 17 and 18. The old testament congregation fell (and kingdom representative was taken from her) the moment Christ went to the Cross. And the New Testament congregation starts 3 days later in Christ along with Pentecost. There is no biblical reason to wait until 70AD for anything to fulfill at that time. The woman of Revelation 12 continued through the Church in the New Testament where she will become a harlot right prior to Second Coming. And yes, the 1,000 years is only a symbolical period for the Church age.

Luke mentions vengeance/avenge a few times in his Gospel and harmonizes quite nicely with Revelation IMHO.

Luke 21:
22 That these are days of vengeance<1557>, of the to be fulfilled all the having been Written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

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The problem with Luke 21 that you tried to quote it not prophesy about Jerusalem 70AD. The Olivet Discourse is not about Roman attacking Jerusalem in 70AD as mostbelievef. Christ prophesied about New Testament Congregation where we are spiritually a Jew and Judea represents the Church! It is God's vengeance upon unfaithful New testament Congregation of Israel the Church during the Great Tribulation prior to Second Coming. The great tribulation did not take place in Jersaulem 70AD.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

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Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge <1556 >your blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

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The Great City/harlot/Queen of Revelation is the New Testament Congregation, not National Israel or the Physical City of Jerusalem, who have gone apostatizing and desolation prior to Second Coming.

Some say those 2 witnesses are a type of Moses and Elijah [which I agree with] and weren't they the Prophets of the OC Hebrew Israelites?

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No The Two Witnesses represents New Testament Saints who have received power of the Holy Ghost to bring Gospel to the world (wilderness).


Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Acts 1:7-8 KJV
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 13:47 KJV
[47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Therefore the Two Witnesses are not two men, or not strictly Jews. They are New Testament Saints who have received the Holy Spirit, starting with the Jews at Pentecost. Not 70AD!

Ezekiel 37:3

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Then said He unto me "Son of adam can these bones live". And I said " my Lord Yahweh, thou knowest!
10 And I prophecy as He instructed and the spirit/breath is coming in them and they are living and are standing on their feet, an army/host, great, exceedingly-exceedingly.
[Luke 2:34/Reve 11:11]

Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

Revelation 11:11
And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit/breath of life out of God entered in them, and they stand on their feet and great, great falls on the ones beholding Them.
[Ezekiel 37:10/Luke 2:34]

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You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Ezekiel 37:3 is speaking of the regeneration of ALL Elect in Christ from Old and New Testament. Together, they are the whole house of (spiritual) Israel. They are being born again from the DRY BONES which is spiritual depravity. This is NOT related to 3-1/2 days of the death of Two Witnesses! Selah!

Tell me, when will the beast be able to kill two witnesses? how? Why will it take place after the testimony of Two Witnesses be finished? What testimony was it?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Ask yourself a question, did the beast come out of bottomeless pit in 70AD? Humm?! Did God talk about physical Jersualem here?

Searching_for_God said:

Uhh... I thought Gog and Magog were just a thing that existed in Islam. Apparently these were supposed to be some evil giant people who are currently living underground and would resurface someday to kill people and stuff like that. That was something that was supposed to happen after the Anti-Christ came and yeah... I'm not fully educated on the whole matter, so I don't really have much of an opinion on it.

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Searching for God, welcome to the forum. At your age, everyone starts somewhere. Some things it takes me five minutes to type. 50 years to know what to type.

You might want to look at my post #207 in this thread...
Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

mkgal1 said:

I agree with you here. When do you believe this took place (or do you believe it's a future event)?

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It is not a single day event. The vision is ongoing as long as the day of salvation is here. And after all the salvation has been accounted for, we are the great army of God who will be with Christ in the air at the Second Coming.

ewq1938 said:

Is Ezekiel 38-39 before the Millennium?

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No it is not.
The war of Armegeddon is before the millenium.Gog invades Israel after the millenium.Gog invades Israel after the land has recoverd from Armeggedon.1000 years after.

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

No one dwells safely in Israel till after the Lord comes,then Jerusalem shall be secure.Only then shall,there be safety in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:11 People will live there, and never again will there be an utter destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell securely.

ewq1938 said:

Armageddon in Revelation is about a great end time battle in our future, at the second coming when the AC and his whole world wide kingdom will be destroyed. It hasn't obviously happened yet..

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And it obviously won't happen in the future as you believe.

Like I said a thousand of times here, the book of Revelation is replete with imagery, symbols and monikers, most of which refer to, or are derived from Old Testament examples! There is no physical mountain of Megiddo (despite some claims to the contrary), it refers to a spiritual Kingdom/Mountain where this great battle God brings will take place. It's like I said before, in in the cryptic symbology of scripture a mountain is used as a figure of a Kingdom. And the place of this Kingdom where the kings are gathered together is the New Testament corporate congregation today! Its Moniker, Megiddo! It is the unfaithful church that has gone whoring after other gods through the false prophets and christs with their positive messages and feel good gospels. And this is God's judgment upon her symbolized as a battle/wawarfareAt the time when the spirit Satan is loosed by God, and he gathers all the kings of the earth (Revelation 20), they come up against THIS mount of Migeddo. They come up against the corporate kingdom representation of God. Why? Because God loosed Satan "specifically" for this purpose. Revelation 20 doesn't speak of an accidental loosing, Satan is to be loosed deliberately of God, sent specifically for the purpose of gathering the kings to assault the Harlot kingdom, which signifies the unfaithful Church who goes after another god. This is done ONLY After all the tribes of Israel are sealed, Revelation 7:1-4, which was why satan was bound in the first place. Selah! Remember, Satan was bound in the first place so that the Kingdom of God could be advanced to the nations. He is thus loosed "AFTER" that purpose has been completed and all Israel has been sealed.

Again, this is not a physical battle in the sense that it is fought with earthly or carnal weapons and armies like guns, missiles, nukes, etc. No! It is a battle fought by people with the spirit of antichrist, the sword of doctrines, in the wanton city. These kings come with the armaments of unrighteousness, deception and lawlessness, deceiving the people of the congregations. And make no mistake, God has sent these (symbolized by ten horns), kings of the earth, specifically to bring this desolation upon that unfaithful woman. The abomination of desolation.

Revelation 17:16-18

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
• For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
• And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

This is when the New Testament congregation has been given to Satan for him to rule becasue of HER UNFAITHFULNESS as a judgment. That is why we read about the three unclean spirits like frogs from these false prophets' mouth, symbolizing it's God's purpose. God has appointed the unfaithful corporate Church to this wrath, but not the elect Church. Therefore, they will rise of God's Spirit (Spirit of Life, Revelation 11:11) that they "see" the abomination of the lawless man (man of sin) taking his position to rule as God in the congregation, and they will depart out! The Elect is spiritually called out that they not be partaker in the sins of the woman (church), who has spiritually become as Sodom and Egypt.

1st Thessalonians 5:5-9

• "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
• Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
• For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
• But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
• For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Listen, this is a SPIRITUAL WAR, that is now taking place in the church all over the world (haven't you notice?) while you guys are arguing about the location about the battle in the Middle East. This is a real battle because it is the time of the total desolation of the Church by God, because of the abominations that they have practiced there. And this battle is the signs of the elect soon donning their armor, heeding the prophesy to flee out of the midst of her, for the fall of spiritual Babylon is near or already happening. Though it might not be clear, it's all related and interrelated.

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

The abominations of the man of sin, or of the sinful man, ruling in the holy place as if he were God Himself or was sent by God. In other words, making his own laws and doctrines, following his own course, doing what is right in his own eyes, rather than abiding by God's laws. Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Todd Bentley, etc. are an example! That is the "sign" for the true believer to "see" and flee from the midst of this once holy place, so that they won't be deceived like those professed Christians who are NOT sealed by God (Revelation 9). The elect are making their home in spiritual mountains. Which is the true Kingdom and righteousness of Christ, not the corporate Church.

Psalms 36:6

• "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast."

Here God signifies His righteousness is what preserves man, and He likens it unto great "mountains." So when Matthew 24 says believers should flee unrighteousness to the mountains, these are the mountains to which they are to flee. Or again we read:

Psalms 121:1-2

• "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

Psalms 125:2

• "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever."

Here again, we see God likened or equated unto "mountains" which are around His people signifying His righteous protection of them. That is why we read about the Elect "fleeing to the mountain" which Matthew 24 signifies of. Using scripture as our guide and interpreter, when the saints are told to flee to the mountains, this is where they are to go when they see the abomination that leads the Church to desolation. The security of the Mountain Retreat or the Mountain Refuge, which can only be found in God's righteousness. The faithful saints don their armaments and flee, while the unfaithful who do not watch, do not keep their garments, remains in apostate church thinking they have Christ in their church. Jesus warned us not to believe them! Leave! This is the spiritual battle of Armageddon is where God will bring judgment upon the unfaithful. This has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with a pile of dirt somewhere in the Middle East, or Jerusalem, or 70AD or whatever. They got the wrong place, to begin with. As it is written, His judgment must start at His house. And that house is the congregation! And always has. The elect and Christ are RELATED! For example, the Old Testament of Israel fell when Christ went to the Cross and died. Likewise, the New Testament Congregation of Israel fell when Two Witnesses were killed by the beast!

Ezekiel 9:5-7

• "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
• Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
• And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city."

It is a given principle that judgment begins at the house of God. And Armageddon is the prelude for the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION to the second coming and the judgment at the end of the world.

1st Peter 4:17

• "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Therefore, the judgment begins at the mount of Megiddo which is actually the mount of the congregation. This is where the "REAL" battle rages, not national Israel or Jerusalem. And after this place is left desolate for their abominations, then will Christ return on the clouds of glory that all must stand before Him, and the books opened. So has it always been.

Jeremiah 25:29-30

• "For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts
• Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."

The point being, if God does not spare His own House, His own people that are called by His name Israel, should the non-covenanted heathen nations imagine that there is no judgment for them? judgment begins at the house of God. Selah.

I like to add something...

This is the long-standing problem I have with Chiliasm, Dispensationalists, Historicists, Calvinism, Preterists with Ministers, Pastors, Authors and all who "claim" to take the Bible very literally, and then when it suits their purpose, they clearly RE-define words to suit their own purposes and force it to fit into their own little cubbyholes.

God didn't inspire the word [biqaho-Meggiddon] or valley of Megiddo written in Revelation, he inspired the words [Har-Meggiddon] or Mountain of Megiddo. The literal words there from the Hebrew are [Har-Meggiddon], from [har] meaning mount or mountain, and [Meggiddon] meaning Megiddo. We can't arbitrarily change a mountain into the exact opposite and call it a valley simply because there is a valley of Megiddo in the Old Testament (2nd Chronicles 35:22 ). Or simply because we find no other instance of "Mountain of Meggido" spoken of in Scripture. To do that is to "change" what God has written. Just because God writes something only once, doesn't give anyone the license to add to it or change it because they can't find a corresponding verse.

Proverbs 30:5-6

• "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
• Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

God prophesied of a valley being exalted or lifted up like a mountain, and a mountain being brought down as a valley--none of this has anything whatsoever to do with physical locations, mountains or valleys physically going up or down. When will people realize that much of God's Word, and especially Revelation, is a book of cryptic images and symbolism signifying something very spiritual? Quite Obviously it is! And yet they still don't get it and are busy looking for literal wars, battles, people, places, empires, or nations. Even when the interpretation is right in front of them. The place Megiddo isn't telling us to find the physical spot somewhere near the city of Jerusalem. Neither is the word Mount telling us to seek out a physical mountain in Israel with that name. That is silly! No, God clearly views mountains in HIS OWN WORD clearly symbolic of Kingdoms. Don't look at me, go to Scripture yourself:

Obadiah 1:21

• "And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S."

Daniel 2:35

• "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Revelation 17:9-10

• "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
• And there are seven kings.."

God already defined the mountains as KINGDOMS n which kings rule. Likewise, Megiddo was the literal place where the enemies of Israel were defeated in the Old Testament and thus is used of God to symbolize the place where the enemies of God are defeated spiritually. Selah! Just as Babylon was a literal/physical City in the Old Testament does not mean she will be literal in the book of Revelation. She is the symbolic city spoken of in Revelation. God uses the name of that city in Revelation as a Symbol to illustrate His House is spiritually as Babylon. Selah! Same principle as Mount of Megiddo! Hello?! It has nothing to do with a physical mountain in the place called Megiddo in 70AD or someday in the near future.

Therefore, Armageddon would be the Spiritual kingdom where Israel's enemies are defeated. We read about the enemies of Old Testament Israel in the Old Testament but it is a type of our enemies of the New Testament Congregation where the spirits gathered the kings of the earth that God might judge them there. Selah! This is the kingdom where the battle is fought. This is the place where the unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, Satan, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. This is the place of the spirits of devils, working miracles (ie. false doctrines, prosperity gospel, positive gospel, "Your Best Life Now", etc.) which go forth unto these kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle against the true body of Christ. Note, it's not a localized battle of a few Churches here and there. It is a UNIVERSAL WORLDWIDE battle in all the Church unto its desolation. For example, there will be no faithful Churches left. Haven't you notice about the spiritual condition of the church today?

Well, like Christ said, I have told you before.

ewq1938 said:

Jesus did not return with an army and defeat the world power's army in Ad70, which at the time would have been the Roman's but they weren't defeated in Ad70.

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Nor did that quoted article state such.

What the article *did* state was this:

shilohsfoal said:

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

No one dwells safely in Israel till after the Lord comes,then Jerusalem shall be secure.Only then shall,there be safety in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:11 People will live there, and never again will there be an utter destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell securely.

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Assuming I'm understanding your position correctly, apparently you and I reason Zechariah 14:11 a bit differently then. I take that verse to mean exactly what it says, and that it will be the case forever at this point once this is initially fulfilled.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Jerusalem would be in the land of Israel, I would think. If Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled first though, follwed by the events recorded in Ezekiel 38:19-20, it looks to me that that would contradict the following in Zechariah 14:11---and there shall be no more utter destruction.

If in Ezekiel 38:20---and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground---if that is not describing utter destruction, what is describing then?