Are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works?

FireDragon76

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How can someone be a Christian humanist?

A humanist is someone who does not believe in, or accept that there is a, God.

No, that's not what a Christian humanist is. That's what secularism humanism is. There is a difference.
 
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FireDragon76

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I have never heard of these Jahwist and Elohist "sources". What are these "sources"?

I get my information from the Bible. This sounds like some commentaries.

Could you explain these "sources"?

It is based on Julius Wellhausen's hypothesis in the 19th century, but it has gained support as the centuries have progressed, including through computer analysis. Wellhausen believed that, based on linguistic evidence, there are actually 4 separate sources for the text of the Torah, which is evidence against traditional Mosaic authorship.

The Documentary Source Hypothesis is the dominant viewpoint in scholarship of Old Testament today, and that is true among most Christians and Jewish theologians and seminary professors as well.

Are you saying that the Torah gives 4 different accounts of the same events?

No, only in certain instances are there more than one (such as Noah's flood), the Torah is made of four different source texts with different backgrounds and theological perspectives.

Only the Jahwist and Elohist focus on narrative. The Priestly and Deuteronomist sources are interested mostly in questions of ritual purity and sacrifices. It is believed they were written down later, during the Babylonian exile. The Jahwist and Elohist are believed to come from around 1000-800 BC.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It is based on Julius Wellhausen's hypothesis in the 19th century, but it has gained support as the centuries have progressed, including through computer analysis. Wellhausen believed that, based on linguistic evidence, there are actually 4 separate sources for the text of the Torah, which is evidence against traditional Mosaic authorship.
Thanks for the information. And, as I surmised, it is nothing more than someone's hypothesis. I don't care anything about what Wellhausen believed or imagined.

I do care very much about any verse that clearly contradicts any other verse. Show me any such pair and I will explain how one of the verses has been mistranslated or misunderstood.

The Documentary Source Hypothesis is the dominant viewpoint in scholarship of Old Testament today, and that is true among most Christians and Jewish theologians and seminary professors as well.
Again, I'm not interested in anyone's "hypothesis", whether theologians, seminary professors, or lay people.

If you know of any pair of verses where one clearly contradicts the other, please share.

I asked:
"Are you saying that the Torah gives 4 different accounts of the same events?"
No, only in certain instances are there more than one (such as Noah's flood), the Torah is made of four different source texts with different backgrounds and theological perspectives.
Not sure I follow. The general view is that Moses wrote the whole Pentateuch. So where does this "4 different source tests" come from? More hypotheses?

Only the Jahwist and Elohist focus on narrative. The Priestly and Deuteronomist sources are interested mostly in questions of ritual purity and sacrifices.
It seems you are quite impressed with what others think about the Bible. You speak of "sources". I'm interested in what the actual writers of Scripture wrote.

If you can prove that Genesis was written by multiple writers, provide evidence, please.

It is believed they were written down later, during the Babylonian exile. The Jahwist and Elohist are believed to come from around 1000-800 BC.
"it is believed" and "are believed" are phrases that dodge any evidence of actual proof of writing.

Again, I don't care what is "believed" or by whom.

I care what Scripture says. Apparently you haven't accepted God's word as God's word. Is that correct?

Meaning, you can't believe everything you read in the Bible.
 
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FireDragon76

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Thanks for the information. And, as I surmised, it is nothing more than someone's hypothesis. I don't care anything about what Wellhausen believed or imagined.

I guess you prefer ignorance to the search for truth.

Again, I'm not interested in anyone's "hypothesis", whether theologians, seminary professors, or lay people.

Of course, because you already know everything. A humble person is willing to engage with new information, not dismiss it categorically.

If you know of any pair of verses where one clearly contradicts the other, please share.

I have already referred you to the relevant information, but you instead prefer to argue and debate. Quite simply, it's not worth my time.

Not sure I follow. The general view is that Moses wrote the whole Pentateuch. So where does this "4 different source tests" come from? More hypotheses?

No, that is not the general view among scholars or even most large religious denominations. It hasn't been the case for some time.

It seems you are quite impressed with what others think about the Bible. You speak of "sources". I'm interested in what the actual writers of Scripture wrote.

So am I. But you prefer legends and traditions, nothing more than heresay really, to actual critical inquiry.
 
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FireDragon76

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Strong in Him

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an emphasis on:

"common humanity, universal reason, freedom, personhood, human rights, human emancipation and progress, and indeed the very notion of secularity"

Christian humanism - Wikipedia

But that's not necessarily Christian.

We have a common humanity; we were all created by God in his image. Atheists might also say that we have a common humanity, but not believe in God.
If we are following Christ, we deny ourselves, Mark 8:34, and die to self, Romans 6:6, Colossians 3:3, Galatians 2:20. In one sense we do have basic human rights - in another, everything we have is a gift to us from God, and we do not have the right to demand anything from him, or anyone else. Right to respect? Security? Acceptance? God meets all these needs; it doesn't matter what others think of us, we (should) know who we are in Christ.
If we belong to Christ we do not belong to the world, John 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 John 2:15-17, 1 Peter 2:11. We should not think like, or conform to, the world, Romans 12:1-2.

In Scripture, you are for God or against him, in him or in the world; walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit.
Someone who tries to be of the world but with Christian qualities, is compromising and trying to serve two masters. Or if they belong to Christ but are worldly, they are corrupting/compromising their faith; carnal Christians.
 
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FireDragon76

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But that's not necessarily Christian.

We have a common humanity; we were all created by God in his image. Atheists might also say that we have a common humanity, but not believe in God.
If we are following Christ, we deny ourselves, Mark 8:34, and die to self, Romans 6:6, Colossians 3:3, Galatians 2:20. In one sense we do have basic human rights - in another, everything we have is a gift to us from God, and we do not have the right to demand anything from him, or anyone else. Right to respect? Security? Acceptance? God meets all these needs; it doesn't matter what others think of us, we (should) know who we are in Christ.
If we belong to Christ we do not belong to the world, John 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 John 2:15-17, 1 Peter 2:11. We should not think like, or conform to, the world, Romans 12:1-2.

In Scripture, you are for God or against him, in him or in the world; walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit.
Someone who tries to be of the world but with Christian qualities, is compromising and trying to serve two masters. Or if they belong to Christ but are worldly, they are corrupting/compromising their faith; carnal Christians.

Christians humanists are Christians, they just emphasize humanism within their Christian beliefs (and humanism actually originated with Christianity first) That doesn't mean they do not believe in distinctively Christian doctrines as well.

The bolded is a very harsh judgement of somebody like Bishop Nikolai Grundtvig, and you frankly are speaking from ignorance on the subject.
 
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Strong in Him

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Christians humanists are Christians, they just emphasize humanism within their Christian beliefs (and humanism actually originated with Christianity first) That doesn't mean they do not believe in distinctively Christian doctrines as well.

Well I, personally, do not believe that's possible - but it's between them and God.

The bolded is a very harsh judgement of somebody like Bishop Nikolai Grundtvig, and you frankly are speaking from ignorance on the subject.

No, the bolded is what Scripture says; you cannot serve two masters, you are IN Christ or IN the world etc etc.
I do not know who this bishop was, and I probably am ignorant of the subject. I was saying what the Bible says; with appropriate verses.

If "humanism" originated with Christianity, it's because Christians believe and proclaim that everyone is made by God, in his image and being fully human means being who God created, and gifted, us to be.
But once we have an allegiance to Christ, we care what he thinks about us, not anyone else; we do what he wants us to do and live by his standards, even if society is saying "white lies or fiddling your expenses are ok; everyone does it", or "sleep with whoever you want before marriage; you have a right to see if you are compatible." We are called to put God first, stand up for our faith and not compromise or deny Christ - whatever the cost. That's why we get tempted and can fall into sin; "God's word says I should/God has told me to do this; my friends and/or family want me to do, and be, like this."

If you take God out of the picture, it becomes; "we are all equal, have equal rights, belong equally to the family of mankind etc etc. We have our beliefs and no one has the right to challenge them/we have our rights and have the right to demand, or follow, them." It all becomes about us.
Christians say that everything that we have, and that is in the world, is from God.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well I, personally, do not believe that's possible - but it's between them and God.



No, the bolded is what Scripture says; you cannot serve two masters, you are IN Christ or IN the world etc etc.
I do not know who this bishop was, and I probably am ignorant of the subject. I was saying what the Bible says; with appropriate verses.

If "humanism" originated with Christianity, it's because Christians believe and proclaim that everyone is made by God, in his image and being fully human means being who God created, and gifted, us to be.
But once we have an allegiance to Christ, we care what he thinks about us, not anyone else; we do what he wants us to do and live by his standards, even if society is saying "white lies or fiddling your expenses are ok; everyone does it", or "sleep with whoever you want before marriage; you have a right to see if you are compatible." We are called to put God first, stand up for our faith and not compromise or deny Christ - whatever the cost. That's why we get tempted and can fall into sin; "God's word says I should/God has told me to do this; my friends and/or family want me to do, and be, like this."

That's not really compatible with Christian humanism as it exists now days, so that is one area that a Christian humanist would obviously differ. Christian humanists appreciate human knowledge of the world and are willing to understand aspects of their faith in light of that, rather than relying upon what amounts to uncritical acceptance of tradition.

All the Protestant reformers were humanists to one degree or another. Especially John Calvin.
 
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DM25

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We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The bible says "Faith unto works", not faith + works for salvation. Works are simply a part of sanctification after you are already saved, or like a byproduct of salvation. But you don't do them to get saved or maintain salvation, you do it because you are already saved and you love God. The book of James specifically talks about how we should live our lives, walk out our faith, and treat our brethren, it does not teach how to get saved, so that explains the "Dead faith" verse that people always take out of context.

Anyone who disagrees with this I am sorry but you don't know the real gospel because this is basically the fundamental core message of the entire faith. Works-based religion like all other religions in the world perverts this message. The way we know Christianity is unique and real is for the fact that our works can't save us and it's been proven that none of us can ever be perfect. Only Jesus can save us, and so we need to rely on our faith in him alone for our salvation. Otherwise you can follow Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or whatever else because everything else teaches works for salvation and that's wrong.
 
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DM25

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Faith in what? The will of the Father and His Kingdom over the will of man as Jesus taught? Or another gospel Jesus did not teach?
That Jesus is the Lord and saviour over all sins, that he died and rose the third day, that he came down as God in the flesh, so our sins can be forgiven. This is the true gospel and the good news. Believe in this and you're set for eternity, the rest will work itself out once the holy spirit is in you.
 
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timothyu

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That Jesus is the Lord and saviour over all sins, that he died and rose the third day, that he came down as God in the flesh, so our sins can be forgiven. This is the true gospel. Believe in this and you're set, the rest will work itself out once the holy spirit is in you.

What about what Jesus taught? He is the saviour after all.
 
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DM25

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What about what Jesus taught? He is the saviour after all.
This is what Jesus taught. Of course he taught us to love God and our neighbours as well which is what we should be doing when we get saved.
 
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timothyu

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But the gospel message what I wrote and that alone is what saves you.
Jesus' gospel said that what saves us is putting God's will before our own, as ours is opposite in nature to the will of God. In other words reject the will, ways and world man has created because of in order to join in wit the salvation offered by way of the kingdom. This repentance,rejection of the default way of mankind was purposely ignored so that man could carry on thinking they could have it both ways. The key is not just accepting... but also in rejecting.
 
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DM25

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Jesus' gospel said that what saves us is putting God's will before our own, as ours is opposite in nature to the will of God. In other words reject the will, ways and world man has created because of in order to join in wit the salvation offered by way of the kingdom. This repentance,rejection of the default way of mankind was purposely ignored so that man could carry on thinking they could have it both ways. The key is not just accepting... but also in rejecting.
Yes, and what is his will? The gospel message I posted, to believe on him as both Paul and Jesus said. As well as love God and love your neighbours. Again, faith and repentance do go hand in hand and I believe once you believe in him as saviour over your sins and get born again the direction of your life will change with the working of the holy spirit and your changed heart, but this is only a byproduct of salvation and natural from your belief. It's not what saves you, but what happens after we are saved. But the faith is the moment and event of salvation, and that alone is what saves you. All glory goes to God for our good works and service to him, not us. As we would not be able to do it in our own effort without him present in our lives.
 
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timothyu

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Yes, and what is his will?

Selflessness vs selfish, Servitude vs self serving. Kingdom vs world of man

It's not what saves you, but what happens after we are saved.

To a degree but Jesus first said repent. That means hear what he said about the Kingdom vs the world of man and change your allegiance, having understood how the two are opposites. That way you have put trust in God and you will learn to wean yourself from what the world has taught you since you were born. Repent first, everything else after. You may notice repent and change are often left out of the lesser gospel.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks for the information. And, as I surmised, it is nothing more than someone's hypothesis. I don't care anything about what Wellhausen believed or imagined.
I guess you prefer ignorance to the search for truth.
What an idiotic comment! I prefer God's word OVER anyone's opinion. I guess you just didn't understand.

Of course, because you already know everything.
And where did you get this bit of "wisdom"? Or is this just another bit of sarcasm?

A humble person is willing to engage with new information, not dismiss it categorically.
Anything that contradicts, denigrates, or otherwise dismisses God's word, isn't worth engaging.

I have already referred you to the relevant information, but you instead prefer to argue and debate. Quite simply, it's not worth my time.
Your so-called "relevant" information is just more opinions.

I said:
"The general view is that Moses wrote the whole Pentateuch. So where does this "4 different source tests" come from? More hypotheses?"
No, that is not the general view among scholars or even most large religious denominations. It hasn't been the case for some time.[/QUOTE]
My question was ignored. Do you have an answer, or not?

I said:
"It seems you are quite impressed with what others think about the Bible. You speak of "sources". I'm interested in what the actual writers of Scripture wrote."
So am I.[/QUOTE]
No you're not. You're more interested in opinions.

But you prefer legends and traditions, nothing more than heresay really, to actual critical inquiry.
So, you mean that "what the actual writers of Scripture wrote" ain't good enough for you? And so you just dismiss what the Bibles says as "legends and traditions".

More idiocy.
 
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