Is Catholicism too Marian?

straykat

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,120
640
Catacombs
✟22,648.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Folk/Popular Catholicism seems too excessive in Marian views in some respects, but I don't think the official devotions are at all. But then again, does any of that have any weight? The stronger image of Catholicism is the "popular" one... down on the ground, so to speak. Not the Vatican... funnily. What outsiders see of Catholicism are the people in their daily life, and cultures they're embedded in, and marketplaces and shrines.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I seriously have no problem with Mary being honored (not venerated) as in the book of Luke, blessed among women. However, Rome (and probably the EO) takes it a little too far and it becomes excessive. If only that attention was focused on Christ?
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why the assumption that it isn't?

If he was, Mary would be discussed as much as David, Moses, Adam, and Noah, and that in light of him. Mary is just another sinner, like one of us, who needed redemption from sin and the need to be justified before God in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
But, between the use of icons in worship and marian practices/beliefs, I see two separate extremes that are both wrong. Why can't we make thing simple and biblical? Haven't we learned anything from Israel's history??
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,470
20,026
41
Earth
✟1,456,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But, between the use of icons in worship and marian practices/beliefs, I see two separate extremes that are both wrong. Why can't we make thing simple and biblical? Haven't we learned anything from Israel's history??

why are icons extreme?
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
why are icons extreme?

Icons themselves aren't wrong (well at least non-persons of the Trinity). I mean the use of them in worship, mainly. I may make a thread about this in the future.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,470
20,026
41
Earth
✟1,456,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Icons themselves aren't wrong (well at least non-persons of the Trinity). I mean the use of them in worship, mainly. I may make a thread about this in the future.

why is that extreme?
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
why is that extreme?

Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 make it clear that God must not be worshiped in, with, or through images that depict anything found in the creation. The only kind of "pictures" God has prescribed for us in the church, outside of the preaching of his word, are the holy sacraments: the Lord's table and baptism. However, graven images of people (and of God) not only violate his worship, but they impair and rob God's true glory in these representations through the fallible, limited, imagination and art of sinful men, as well as distract us of our pure devotion to God alone. If that last wasn't true, we wouldn't need them at all. The idea that these images help or aid us shows what's wrong with where our heart is in worshiping God. In John 4:24, we read that we are to worship God in truth and spirit, throw out those "visual aids."

Also, if the above is true, then even depicting Jesus is a form of idolatry. Even worse, Nestorianism, separating the divinity of Christ from the depictions and only representing his humanity.

If you want me to, we can address every one of John of Damascus' gross defenses from Scripture where he attempts to entangle the reader to believe that God permitted such idolatry in the land of Israel. We should make a thread about this...
 
Upvote 0

icxn

Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα
Dec 13, 2004
3,092
885
✟210,855.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
... However, graven images of people (and of God) not only violate his worship, but they impair and rob God's true glory in these representations through the fallible, limited, imagination and art of sinful men, as well as distract us of our pure devotion to God alone. If that last wasn't true, we wouldn't need them at all. The idea that these images help or aid us shows what's wrong with where our heart is in worshiping God. In John 4:24, we read that we are to worship God in truth and spirit, throw out those "visual aids."
Is that David killing Goliath on your icon? It reminds me of Christ, Who took on our human flesh, as if five stones (because of our five senses) from the brook of this fallen world, though without sin, hence smooth, and with the wooden sling of the cross, and the suffering of His body (sense of touch - the stone He hurled at the spiritual Goliath), He knocked the Devil out and cut his head using our enemy's own sword (the death he inflicted on our sinless Lord was his own undoing).

See to what contemplation (devotion) your 'graven' image carried us off? Did that rob and violate God's glory in any way?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I seriously have no problem with Mary being honored (not venerated) as in the book of Luke, blessed among women. However, Rome (and probably the EO) takes it a little too far and it becomes excessive. If only that attention was focused on Christ?
@thecolorsblend showed an excellent explanation of how a lot of Protestants see this as a zero-sum game:
"Protestant Zero Sum Theology:
There is one pie with only so many pieces in that pie. It's either all Our Lord or Our Lord has to share slices of that pie with other entities (Pope, Our Lady, Saints, priests). If the Pope is important, he somehow takes away from Our Lord. If Our Lady is important, she must be taking something away from Our Lord. This is the zero-sum problem. It's all about addition or subtraction: zero-sum.

Catholic Participation Theology:
Our Lord as a Divine Person of the Trinity can use creatures to magnify His power, grace and glory. So it's not about addition or subtraction, but about multiplication. The Pope doesn't subtract something from Our Lord. His office participates within Our Lord. Our Lady doesn't subtract something from Our Lord; instead her "soul magnifies the Lord."

It's not a zero-sum, either/or proposition."
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
But, between the use of icons in worship and marian practices/beliefs, I see two separate extremes that are both wrong. Why can't we make thing simple and biblical? Haven't we learned anything from Israel's history??
Yes, that's why we don't tolerate idolatry.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Is that David killing Goliath on your icon? It reminds me of Christ, Who took on our human flesh, as if five stones (because of our five senses) from the brook of this fallen world, though without sin, hence smooth, and with the wooden sling of the cross, and the suffering of His body (sense of touch - the stone He hurled at the spiritual Goliath), He knocked the Devil out and cut his head using our enemy's own sword (the death he inflicted on our sinless Lord was his own undoing).

See to what contemplation (devotion) your 'graven' image carried us off? Did that rob and violate God's glory in any way?

You didn't read #75
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,470
20,026
41
Earth
✟1,456,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 make it clear that God must not be worshiped in, with, or through images that depict anything found in the creation. The only kind of "pictures" God has prescribed for us in the church, outside of the preaching of his word, are the holy sacraments: the Lord's table and baptism. However, graven images of people (and of God) not only violate his worship, but they impair and rob God's true glory in these representations through the fallible, limited, imagination and art of sinful men, as well as distract us of our pure devotion to God alone. If that last wasn't true, we wouldn't need them at all. The idea that these images help or aid us shows what's wrong with where our heart is in worshiping God. In John 4:24, we read that we are to worship God in truth and spirit, throw out those "visual aids."

Also, if the above is true, then even depicting Jesus is a form of idolatry. Even worse, Nestorianism, separating the divinity of Christ from the depictions and only representing his humanity.

If you want me to, we can address every one of John of Damascus' gross defenses from Scripture where he attempts to entangle the reader to believe that God permitted such idolatry in the land of Israel. We should make a thread about this...

who says God is worshipped in, with, or through an icon?

also, seeing as one of the early defenders (albeit in passing) of icons was St Athanasius, who was of the school that opposed Nestorius, saying it's Nestorian is just foolish.

plus, if you are correct that the only images to be used are the sacraments, then why did the post-Pentecost Apostles still go to the same image laden Temple that Christ went to?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
panagiaeleutherotria.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
who says God is worshipped in, with, or through an icon?

Here is an example:

“Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation.” - John of Damascus, Three Treatises on the Divine Images

Indirect worship? Pure sophistry. I know I am using mainly John here, sorry, but it is evident the folly in these words. Not only is this ridiculous, but just reading this leads to theological problems as to what he worships through the image he depicts God with, the image of Jesus' humanity? His divinity isn't depicted here, and if it were it would be a false representation by a man's imagination. He is dividing the natures as separate.

also, seeing as one of the early defenders (albeit in passing) of icons was St Athanasius, who was of the school that opposed Nestorius, saying it's Nestorian is just foolish.

Don't know enough about that.

plus, if you are correct that the only images to be used are the sacraments, then why did the post-Pentecost Apostles still go to the same image laden Temple that Christ went to?

Do you mean Herod's Temple? Where there images therein?

Images of men and of God for private/public worship isn't the same thing as an altar to burn offerings.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
If he was, Mary would be discussed as much as David, Moses, Adam, and Noah, and that in light of him. Mary is just another sinner, like one of us, who needed redemption from sin and the need to be justified before God in Christ.

Mary isn't just another sinner, she's the Mother of God. That's pretty unique. God chose to have a mother, and that mother was Mary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Mary isn't just another sinner, she's the Mother of God. That's pretty unique. God chose to have a mother, and that mother was Mary.

David isn't just another sinner, he's the Ancestor of God. That's pretty unique. God chose to have an ancestor, and that ancestor was David. \(-_-)/
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
@thecolorsblend showed an excellent explanation of how a lot of Protestants see this as a zero-sum game:
"Protestant Zero Sum Theology:
There is one pie with only so many pieces in that pie. It's either all Our Lord or Our Lord has to share slices of that pie with other entities (Pope, Our Lady, Saints, priests). If the Pope is important, he somehow takes away from Our Lord. If Our Lady is important, she must be taking something away from Our Lord. This is the zero-sum problem. It's all about addition or subtraction: zero-sum.

I haven't noticed this among Lutherans as much. If it's a theme, it's very muted. Our reasons for not praying to saints have to do with affirming the sufficiency and accessibility of Christ as our mediator. Otherwise, we are all for honoring saints.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
David isn't just another sinner, he's the Ancestor of God. That's pretty unique. God chose to have an ancestor, and that ancestor was David. \(-_-)/

This isn't an argument against honoring Mary from my standpoint. Mary herself said that she would be proclaimed blessed among women.

David is indeed the ancestor of God. Some Lutheran churches have him on their calendar, and people even name their children after him. And we read the story about how he was anointed to be king. So it seems to me, he is indeed honored for his role in salvation history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0