Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

Douggg · Mar 19, 2019

Seville90210 said:
Your theory would be more convincing if you can proves Israel is at peace before the peace treaty and the tribulation.

My view is that Israel is at peace right now, mom's and kids going shopping, basketball games, political wrangling, tourist throughout the land, praying at the west wall, farming...etc.

I am also thinking if Trump's plan is accepted, then it will amplify the current peace Israel is experiencing; in a pre-Gog-Magog situation.

I am not saying that Trump's plan or any sort of "peace plan" is the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years.

Douggg · Mar 19, 2019

Seville90210 said:
But here's another verse in Ezekiel 39:21 that proves your theory wrong.

Ezekiel 39:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.

When will God / Jesus execute judgement upon all the nations on earth? This will only happen in the tribulation, not before.

Therefore, Ezekiel 38-39 can only be in the tribulation, not before.

Ezekiel 39:21, Jesus speaking having returned to earth, follows Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Armageddon feast Ezekiel 39:17-20 = Revelation 19:17-18 feast

DavidPT · Mar 19, 2019

Seville90210 said:
2) Numerous scriptures in the old and new testament tells us the Jews will flee Israel at the middle of the tribulation. That would mean they can only burn the weapons for first 3 1/2 years while they're still Israel, not the entire 7 years as they're scattered during the second half.

Obviously after the 2nd half of the trib finishes, Christ soon returns thereafter. If they begin burning of the weapons for 3.5 years midtrib, well the text indicates they do this an entire 7 years. That would still mean they are burning weapons post the 2nd coming, at least for another 3.5 years anyway. I simply agree with you that the burning of the weapons don't parallel the 7 year trib period. That only leaves 2 choices in that case. They either burn the weapons for the 7 years before Daniel 9 70th week even begins, or that they do it after Daniel 9 70th week has concluded. For sure they don't do it during the 70th week. I can't seem to find a single text in all of the Bible having to do with the 70th week, where it ever depicts anyone burning weapons during the 70th week.

DavidPT · Mar 19, 2019

Seville90210 said:
Your theory would be more convincing if you can proves Israel is at peace before the peace treaty and the tribulation.

But here's another verse in Ezekiel 39:21 that proves your theory wrong.

Ezekiel 39:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.

When will God / Jesus execute judgement upon all the nations on earth? This will only happen in the tribulation, not before.

Therefore, Ezekiel 38-39 can only be in the tribulation, not before.

It could also be meaning during the time of God's wrath instead, where I place that time after the trib but before the 2nd coming. IOW Matthew 24:29, which then leads to the last 7 vials of wrath. It is after the trib when the beast and fp are dealt with. And if the Gog battle and defeat happens at the end of this age, how can it possibly not also involve the beast and fp in some manner?

claninja · Mar 19, 2019

Douggg said:
It means the religious leaders in their day were doing the same kind of thing, opposing Jesus, as the heathen of the kings of the earth of the end times will be doing when they gather together to make war on Jesus.

What teaches you to interpret scripture this way? Acts 4:24-27 clearly has Psalm 2:1-2 fulfilled with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Are you saying this is dual fulfillment, 1 fulfillment with Jesus 1st coming, then another fulfillment with Jesus 2nd coming?

keras · Mar 19, 2019

Ezekiel 38 & 39 refers to an alliance of Northern peoples, formed to invade the holy Land, sometime during these latter days. Scholars differ as to who these peoples/nations are, but no reference is made to Israel’s present immediate neighbours – the Arab Islamic nations and entities, such as Hamas. The reason why they are not included in this alliance, is the fact that they will have already suffered an earlier massive defeat, the Psalms 83 fire from the Lord; His Day of wrath. Revelation 6:12-17

The passage in Ezekiel 38:11-13 describe Israel as:

1/ A people dwelling securely – not the case at present.

2/ A nation at peace – all of the nations surrounding are outright or potential enemies.

3/ Dwelling without walls – in modern terms: undefended borders.

4/ An extremely wealthy and prosperous nation, blessed by the Lord – not true of the Jewish State of Israel.

This shows that His people, Christian Israelites, will be in the Land after the clearance of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

Ezekiel 38 & 39 are both describing the same event, an attack upon the Lord’s people, by a leader known as Gog, from the ‘far reaches of the North’. He is mentioned again in Revelation 20:8-9 which uses Ezekiel’s prophecy to portray another, final attack against Israel. The result of this battle is that all are destroyed by fire and Satan is finally judged. Some differences are:

1/ The first battle involves only a few nations, the last will be every nation.

2/ There is no mention of Satan in Ezekiel 38-39, but in Revelation 20, he is the primary character.

3/ The Ezekiel battle says the dead will be gathered and buried for 7 months. The armies at the end of the Millennium are cremated instantly, by fire from heaven.

4/ The battle in Ezekiel is used by God to display His power. In Revelation, the world has been faithful to God for 1000 years. Those in Rev 20:7-10 who are rebellious are killed without any more opportunity for repentance.

The second chapter of Joel up to verse 28, is a sequence of events:

Verse 1- 11 is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance/ Middle East devastation/ Sixth Seal.

V 12-17 A call for the repentance of His people. V 18-19 They gather into the Land.

V 20 The Gog and Magog war. V 21-26 People of Zion, rejoice, I shall recompense you.

V 27 You will know that I am present in Israel and I am your God. This verse parallels Ezekiel 39:28 It is by His deeds that He is known, not by His presence, until His Return, after the Tribulation, therefore, all the above happens before that.

Joel 2:18-20 Then, the Lord showed His ardent love for His Land and was moved with compassion for His people. He answered their appeal and gave them food in plenty. I shall expose you to the danger of attack no longer. I shall remove the Northern peril [Gog and Magog] far from you, into the desert areas. The leading troops will be near the Dead Sea and the rearguard by the Mediterranean. Their rotting stench will rise up!
The Lord has done great things!

DavidPT · Mar 19, 2019

claninja said:
Ezekiel 39:29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God.”

We should first look for a tent pole. I believe Ezekiel 39:29 is the clearest tent pole. we may disagree on the order of Ezekiel 39, we may disagree on the identity of Gog in Ezekiel 39, but Ezekiel 39:29 is very clearly the spirit being poured out.

The spirit was poured out on Pentecost, after Jesus ascended.

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you to the age.

John 14:26 the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you

Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

acts 2:15-16
For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

The main reason that we can't seem to get on the same page in this particular case has to do with how I typically try and reason through prophesies in general. I happen to be of the mindset, that when it comes to prophesies like this, chronology counts, thus matters. The chronology is clear to me that Ezekiel 39:29 can't be fulfilled unto God has first executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Let's also consider this. The way the text reads to me here, is like such. but I have gathered them unto their own land, meaning before the judgment executed on Gog and his multitude, and have left none of them any more there, meaning He no longer leaves them in captivity among the heathen.

The land meant here has to be literal land in the Middle east. Currently the part of Israel that appears to fit with the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 39 are presently in their own land in the Middle east. Yet God is still obviously hiding His face from them, the fact most of them are still Christ rejectors, thus unbelievers. That tells me Gog and his multitude have not been defeated yet, thus verse 29 is not yet fulfilled, regardless what passages like in Acts 2 indicates.

claninja said:
I believe Gog/Magog's identity is found in revelation 19-20, where it relates Ezekiel 38-39 to satan, the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies. I believe Gog/Magog has both a spiritual and physical presence.

I don't see us too far apart here in our thinking in regards to this. I'm certain we don't see it exactly the same, yet I don't see anything in what you said here that I feel the need to try and dispute atm.

DavidPT · Mar 19, 2019

keras said:
This shows that His people, Christian Israelites, will be in the Land after the clearance of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

It doesn't look like to me you are paying close enough attention to what part of Israel the text has to fit. For one it has to fit the part of Israel God has been hiding His face from. He would have no reason to be hiding His face from Christian Israelites. For another, the text indicates the part of Israel meant here, once God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, is so the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. Ummm...Christian Israelites would already clearly know that. They wouldn't require seeing God's judgment on Gog and his multitude to be convinced He is the Lord their God. How did they ever become Christians in the first place if they didn't already know and believe that? In a strange way then, since we hear the term replacement theology thrown around a lot, maybe that term fits here with your take on some of these things?

keras · Mar 19, 2019

DavidPT said:
It doesn't look like to me you are paying close enough attention to what part of Israel the text has to fit. For one it has to fit the part of Israel God has been hiding His face from. He would have no reason to be hiding His face from Christian Israelites. For another, the text indicates the part of Israel meant here, once God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, is so the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. Ummm...Christian Israelites would already clearly know that. They wouldn't require seeing God's judgment on Gog and his multitude to be convinced He is the Lord their God. How did they ever become Christians in the first place if they didn't already know and believe that? In a strange way then, since we hear the term replacement theology thrown around a lot, maybe that term fits here with your take on some of these things?

What you haven't paid enough attention to, is how ethnic Israel has no longer any claim to being God's people. Ephesians 2:11-18 makes that crystal clear, as do many other scriptures.
The Lord DOES hide His face from us Christians, we believe in Him by faith; faith in things unseen.
When every faithful Christian goes to live in all of the holy Land, as the prophesies say we will, then the Lord will be revealed to His own. 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1

God's Judgement on G/M is to display His power to His people and to the world. Ezekiel 38:23 and Ezekiel 39:7, makes that clear.

You managed to throw in the dreaded 'replacement theology', which shows your extreme bias for Jewish Israel to be the people G/M attack. In no way do the citizens of todays Israel fit in Ezekiel 38-39. Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Romans 9:27

Douggg · Mar 19, 2019

claninja said:
What teaches you to interpret scripture this way? Acts 4:24-27 clearly has Psalm 2:1-2 fulfilled with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Are you saying this is dual fulfillment, 1 fulfillment with Jesus 1st coming, then another fulfillment with Jesus 2nd coming?

No, I am not saying dual fulfillment, I am saying they used what they knew of the psalms and applied it to religious leaders at that time.

John in 1John2:18, applied what he knew about the coming antichrist person and applied it to them in his day who were acting in the same spirit, by calling the antichrists.

Douggg · Mar 19, 2019

DavidPT said:
For one it has to fit the part of Israel God has been hiding His face from. He would have no reason to be hiding His face from Christian Israelites.

Exactly.

The thing I think that you and I disagree on is when those of the house of Israel who are not currently believers of when they become believers and why.

My view is that they don't become believers because of Gog/Magog, but because their perceived messiah King of Israel betrays them in the middle part of the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

DavidPT · Mar 19, 2019

Douggg said:
Exactly.

The thing I think that you and I disagree on is when those of the house of Israel who are not currently believers of when they become believers and why.

My view is that they don't become believers because of Gog/Magog, but because their perceived messiah King of Israel betrays them in the middle part of the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Let's look at something else in Ezekiel 39 then.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This to me sounds like it could be referring to the following.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then eventually we see the following in that same chapter.

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Compare---Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD---with that of---and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 16:17 doesn't tell us who a great voice is meaning, but Ezekiel 39:8 appears to, that being the LORD God Himself, God Almighty.

So I'm thinking Armageddon and the defeat of Gog and his multitude are referring to the same events and are meaning the battle of that great day of God Almighty(Revelation 16:14), this is the day whereof I have spoken(Ezekiel 39:8).

Since you also disagree that Ezekiel 38:17-20 has to do with the defeat of Gog and his multitude, consider the following then. Take a look again at Ezekiel 38:3-6. Would you agree that those are describing mighty men, men of war? If yes, isn't that exactly who Ezekiel 39:20 indicates will become food for every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field---that being mighty men, and with all men of war?

Since we also disagree about the timing of the burning of weapons for 7 years, Ezekiel 38-39 aside for a moment, and since you apparently feel this 7 years parallels Daniel 9 70th week, so any passages in the OT and NT which you feel have the 70th week of Daniel 9 in view, can you show in any of them where it ever gives the impression anyone is burning weapons for an entire 7 years? I don't know if you realize it or not, but 7 years is quite a long time to be burning weapons. Thus, if someone were doing that it would be a pretty major event at the time. Hard to imagine anyone doing that but that there is no one on the planet at the time even aware anyone is doing that. But if you can't support this idea from other Scriptures having to do with the 70th week, why conclude it even does then?

Douggg · Mar 19, 2019

DavidPT said:
Let's look at something else in Ezekiel 39 then.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This to me sounds like it could be referring to the following.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then eventually we see the following in that same chapter.

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Compare---Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD---with that of---and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 16:17 doesn't tell us who a great voice is meaning, but Ezekiel 39:8 appears to, that being the LORD God Himself, God Almighty.

So I'm thinking Armageddon and the defeat of Gog and his multitude are referring to the same events and are meaning the battle of that great day of God Almighty(Revelation 16:14), this is the day whereof I have spoken(Ezekiel 39:8).

Since you also disagree that Ezekiel 38:17-20 has to do with the defeat of Gog and his multitude, consider the following then. Take a look again at Ezekiel 38:3-6. Would you agree that those are describing mighty men, men of war? If yes, isn't that exactly who Ezekiel 39:20 indicates will become food for every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field---that being mighty men, and with all men of war?

Since we also disagree about the timing of the burning of weapons for 7 years, Ezekiel 38-39 aside for a moment, and since you apparently feel this 7 years parallels Daniel 9 70th week, so any passages in the OT and NT which you feel have the 70th week of Daniel 9 in view, can you show in any of them where it ever gives the impression anyone is burning weapons for an entire 7 years? I don't know if you realize it or not, but 7 years is quite a long time to be burning weapons. Thus, if someone were doing that it would be a pretty major event at the time. Hard to imagine anyone doing that but that there is no one on the planet at the time even aware anyone is doing that. But if you can't support this idea from other Scriptures having to do with the 70th week, why conclude it even does then?

Hi David, Jesus Himself is speaking Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned this earth. It can't be anyone else but Jesus speaking in those verses.

Prior to his returning are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, and the 7 years (and half's of the 7 years) are through out the Revelation chapters.

So where are you going to put those 7 years in Ezekiel 38-39 ?

Can't be before Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38, because Israel is living in safety and peace right before Gog/Magog. And we know from Revelation, the 42 months before Jesus returns there is persecution of Israel.

The only place that those 7 years can fit is the 7 years following Gog/Magog.
________________________________________________________________________________

On the burning of weapons issue. The burning of those weapons makes it possible not to have to cut down trees or take wood out of the field - it indicates in Ezekiel 39:9-10.

A couple of points. One the weapons, the tanks, the armored personnel carriers, the vehicles will all be metal. What does one do with metal? They recycle it, melting it in furnaces.

But before they put the vehicles etc into the furnaces - they must empty the fuel. What is wood used for in this particular application? It is burnt for cooking and heat.

So, after Gog/Magog, Israel will think it is entering the messianic age, melting the swords into plows.

And the fuel will be used by the residents in the outlying areas where the destruction takes place, in both the valleys and mountains, for cooking and heat.

Yes, seven years is a long time, but recycling that amount of metal will take a long time because there also have to be facilities with the capacity to do it. And when it gets into the great tribulation, and the Jews fleeing into the wilderness, the fuel left in those vehicles in the most mountainous and wilderness area will come in handy for the Jews avoiding persecution of the beast, to use for cooking and heat.
__________________________________________________________________________________

The main proof that the 7 years after Gog/Magog is the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 - is that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:17-29 - and the 7 years that precede His return have to go somewhere in Ezekiel 38-39.

The Righterzpen · Mar 19, 2019

Douggg said:
Following the text of Ezekiel 38-39, walk me through the text of why I have it wrong. And why you may think this is part or all history.

Here is what I say, to happen during your lifetime...

Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

I'd have to sit down and look carefully at the Hebrew to give a full and well thought out answer.

I will say this though. I've come to the conclusion that certain passages in the Scripture are giving us a description of things happening in the realm of the spiritual world that we can not see with physical eyes. Granted there are consequences in the material world; but if we had the ability to put on glasses that allowed us to see angels and demons and the souls of the deceased; I think we'd understand some of this allegoric language better.

Erik Nelson · Mar 19, 2019

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 39:21, Jesus speaking having returned to earth, follows Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Armageddon feast Ezekiel 39:17-20 = Revelation 19:17-18 feast

except Revelation 20:8? How do you get around that word for word verbatim direct explicit unambiguous reference?

NIV First-Century Study Bible

20:7–10 Gog and Magog. John sees the amassing of armies as echoing the vision of Ezekiel (see Eze 37–39). Gog and Magog appear to be the manifestation of all the enemies of God. It’s not altogether clear if there is a war as fire falls from heaven and the final judgment then ensues.

ilovejcsog · Mar 20, 2019

Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

How many years does that cover? "this generation shall not pass away....." 1948. 2048?

Douggg · Mar 20, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
except Revelation 20:8? How do you get around that word for word verbatim direct explicit unambiguous reference?

Erik, I have explained the use of Gog-Magog in Revelation 20:8 many times before - outside of this thread, admittedly. Then again, how are you to know that or recall everything every poster says at one time or another on this forum.

At the end of the thousand years, when Satan is released to deceive the nations one last time, the same nations that made up Gog-Magog a 1007 years before will be part of them who will be participating in an attempted attack on Israel (called the camp of the saints).

Douggg · Mar 20, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

How many years does that cover? "this generation shall not pass away....." 1948. 2048?

Gog/Magog mobilizes (the time is not given for how long) and attack Israel. God supernaturally destroys Gog's army. It does not say how long. But it could be reasonably thought to be a short time, maybe in a day.

Then 7 years. There could be the 7 months before the 7years.

So, if 1967+70 years for a generation = 2037. And then taking into account 7 years for the confirming of the covenant time in Daniel 9:27. Gog/Magog should be sometime before the end of 2030. It would appear.

(1948 is the wrong base year for the parable of the fig tree. 1948+70 years = 2018. already passed.

Well, that's if using 70 years for a generation. But if a person used 80 years instead (by strength, in Psalms 90:10). Then 1948+80 = 2028. minus the 7 years. Then Gog/Magog sometime before the end of 2021. It's possible)

Erik Nelson · Mar 20, 2019

Douggg said:
Erik, I have explained the use of Gog-Magog in Revelation 20:8 many times before - outside of this thread, admittedly. Then again, how are you to know that or recall everything every poster says at one time or another on this forum.

At the end of the thousand years, when Satan is released to deceive the nations one last time, the same nations that made up Gog-Magog a 1007 years before will be part of them who will be participating in an attempted attack on Israel (called the camp of the saints).

So you're saying Gog and Magog are defeated twice?

Would you like knowledge that you're reading Gog and Magog Back into revelation 19? In Revelation 19, the beast is defeated. The Beast is thrown into the Lake of fire. The beast remains in the Lake of fire forever more until and after judgment day.

The Beast is NOT freed from the Lake of fire. The Beast and false prophet defeated in revelation 19 CANNOT be Gog and Magog on the surface of Planet Earth In Revelation 20. More than 1000 years later when they are imprisoned in the Lake of fire awaiting final judgment.

Douggg · Mar 20, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
So you're saying Gog and Magog are defeated twice?

I would say in similitude to Germany, aggressor in WWI then WWII, same nation, different cicumstances.

Would you like knowledge that you're reading Gog and Magog Back into revelation 19? In Revelation 19, the beast is defeated. The Beast is thrown into the Lake of fire. The beast remains in the Lake of fire forever more until and after judgment day.

The Beast is NOT freed from the Lake of fire. The Beast and false prophet defeated in revelation 19 CANNOT be Gog and Magog on the surface of Planet Earth In Revelation 20. More than 1000 years later when they are imprisoned in the Lake of fire awaiting final judgment.

I am probably not understanding what you saying, Erik. So I will put it in my words and view.

Gog/Magog is not the beast, nor kingdom of the beast. Gog the leader is not the beast.

Gog/Magog is not the end times Roman Empire. The end times Roman Empire is the final form of the EU. Gog/Magog is a different group of nations.

Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Well-Known Member

I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Similar threads