Tongues & the cessationists.

Alithis

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I think that one of the greatest and dishonest things about cessationism is it allows for the continuation of the works and manifestations of evil spirits and appears to have every faith in the ability of them to wreck havoc in the church... (Reference strange fire topics and the like )
And i agree many strange fire things and manifestations Are demonic and of the Evil spirits.

But the cessationist's faith in the continued work of evil spirits Vs the ongoing works and attributes of the holy Spirit and thier denying him power to do what he is sent to Do is a most baffling and quite ludacrous contradiction.

And this is of extreme concern
For the cessationist hold to a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof.

While at the same time attribute every sign of the attributes/gifts of the holy spirit to the devil.
Thus glorifying the power of satan and deminishing the power of Christ..

Now do tell.. Test the spirits.what spirit does THAT...
 
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Carl Emerson

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The oppression doesn't just lift, the oppressor runs or scatters. Thus, the reason for the war against the gift of Tongues. What does the enemy gain, is the question, one must ask whenever dealing with the enemy. And yes Tongues is a precious gift.
Hi there,

In response to this I have experienced 'soul-ish' oppression - I am not sure that all oppression has to be demonic in nature.

The truth is however that if He is interceding for us or proclaiming rebuke via a tongue then His authority always prevails as it deals with anything on the earth, under the earth or in the heavens. There is no domain in which He is not King. So whether an oppression is spiritual or soul-ish it must heed His word. Responses are not always instant either as Jesus Himself experienced with the boy in Mark 9:26. There is however no contest, as His word of authority has no rival.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I think that one of the greatest and dishonest things about cessationism is it allows for the continuation of the works and manifestations of evil spirits and appears to have every faith in the ability of them to wreck havoc in the church...

That sums it up. They have plenty of faith in the demons, but they spare none for God in such matters.
 
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GTW27

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I have come to the conclusion that there are only two spirits operating: either the Holy Spirit, or demon spirits. There is no middle line. If a person is not manifesting a spiritual gift through the outflowing of the Holy Spirit within Him, then he is operating it from a demon spirit. Even if we say that a person is using a gift through the flesh, because it is not of the Spirit, there has to be a spirit that is not of God behind the action, ie: some type of demonic spirit, like a spirit of pride, or a controlling witchcraft spirit.

Therefore those who are teaching that the manifestation of the spiritual gifts, including tongues is not for today have to nail their colours to the mast. If they are not going to acknowledge that current Pentecostals and Charismatics are manifesting tongues, prophecy and other spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit, then they have to take the position that all Pentecostals and Charismatics who are exercising spiritual gifts are doing it through demon spirits.

John MacArthur is one of those prominent religious teachers who is adamant that the Charismatic movement is based on falsehood. In fact, whether he is prepared to admit it or not, he is teaching that all Pentecostals and Charismatics are of the devil because they are exercising spiritual gifts that don't come from the Holy Spirit.

These guys cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot say that Pentecostals and Charismatics "are our Christian brothers and sisters" and say at the same time that they are deceived by the devil in the way they exercise spiritual gifts. Either P/Cs are entirely of the Holy Spirit or entirely of the devil. A person cannot have the Holy Spirit and the devil at the same time. He cannot serve two masters. Either he serves one or the other.

Lately Oscar, you have been making me smile, with some of your words. I have always considered you mild, but lately I see you stepping out of that, which is a good thing. With me, I was not called to be mild, but to do and say all that He ask me to do. A seed of doubt has been planted and believed by many.It's purpose is to leave the church powerless and in a state of unbelief.Preaching needs to be done on the subject of Him in us, and us in Him. Which includes, the fruit of The Spirit, walking in The Spirit, the Spiritual Gifts, and The Power and Authority promised to us, as sons and daughters. Just imagine the change that would occur.Just imagine countless people praying in Tongues changing the outcome of so many situations, as The Spirit interceeds. Perhaps it is time to take back what the locust has devoured.Perhaps it is time to rebuke the devourer, and take claim to that which He promised. And all His promises are true. Have a Blessed day.

MacArthur, in effect, is saying that P/Cs are serving the devil in their style of worship, and we know what Jesus said about those who accused Him of casting out demons through the prince of demons instead of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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You may have left the last quote instruction out of my post that you were quoting so that your post was merged with mine. You might like to go back and edit it so your good reply is more clearly seen.

I enjoyed your reply! :)
 
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Carl Emerson

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Seems to me that when there is a genuine move of the spirit, gifts are operating, but the 'wise' among us call for control. Management structures are implemented, the Spirit is quenched, and the gifts disappear. What is left is a structure that must justify its existence. Part of this justification is to theologise in a way that explains the lack of sign gifts. And a well adorned skeleton continues on...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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GTW27

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You may have left the last quote instruction out of my post that you were quoting so that your post was merged with mine. You might like to go back and edit it so your good reply is more clearly seen.

I enjoyed your reply! :)


Lately Oscar, you have been making me smile, with some of your words. I have always considered you mild, but lately I see you stepping out of that, which is a good thing. With me, I was not called to be mild, but to do and say all that He ask me to do. A seed of doubt has been planted and believed by many.It's purpose is to leave the church powerless and in a state of unbelief.Preaching needs to be done on the subject of Him in us, and us in Him. Which includes, the fruit of The Spirit, walking in The Spirit, the Spiritual Gifts, and The Power and Authority promised to us, as sons and daughters. Just imagine the change that would occur.Just imagine countless people praying in Tongues changing the outcome of so many situations, as The Spirit interceeds. Perhaps it is time to take back what the locust has devoured.Perhaps it is time to rebuke the devourer, and take claim to that which He promised. And all His promises are true. Have a Blessed day.
 
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Alithis

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Put it in the Spirit-filled/Charismatic forum. That way you will get a series of balanced replies from Charismatics who have experienced the good, bad and the ugly. Try not to be accusative in your approach otherwise some may react, not to what you are saying, but the tone in which you are saying it. Otherwise the discussion will be informative and edifying for all.
actually i have put it in controversial theology haha .. but

i will see how it bodes and request it be moved

The Erroneous state of the so called, Christian modern "church System".
 
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jiminpa

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John MacArthur is a heretic and I have doubts that he is actually saved. He may be very plausible concerning many areas of his Bible teaching, but so were the unsaved Jewish Pharisees to accused Jesus of being a heretic and of the devil.
I have absolutely no doubt that he is not saved. The bible says that he cannot be saved. You can't call the Holy Spirit the things he has and be forgiven, in this age or the age to come. Those are not my words, as you know. We are afraid in the cases to pronounce what Jesus Himself pronounced.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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I have seen evidence of at least three different tongue gifts...

One is for personal edification and some mistakenly use this in church and of course there is no interpretation. This leads to confusion.

Two is the gift that is interpreted and this is for a sign to unbelievers who may be in attendance.

Three is a tongue of rebuke that assists spiritual warfare. Sometime I awake speaking sternly in a tongue I have never heard before, and oppression lifts...

Tongues is a precious gift.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Also there is the speaking of tongues at home when communing with God.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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I have absolutely no doubt that he is not saved. The bible says that he cannot be saved. You can't call the Holy Spirit the things he has and be forgiven, in this age or the age to come. Those are not my words, as you know. We are afraid in the cases to pronounce what Jesus Himself pronounced.


May i ask what he has called the Holy Spirit?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Also there is the speaking of tongues at home when communing with God.
Yes, That was my number 1 - personal edification...

Sometimes mistakenly used in public.

1 Cor 14:28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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Alithis

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jiminpa

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May i ask what he has called the Holy Spirit?
Aside from holding a multi-day anti Holy Spirit rally, he called the "the Holy Spirit, of the Charismatics," [inserted a bunch of supporting lies and half-truths] "is not God." Since the Holy Spirit of the Charismatics is the Holy Spirit of the Bible, God's Spirit, Johnny Mac blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and according to Jesus, blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or the one to come.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Aside from holding a multi-day anti Holy Spirit rally, he called the "the Holy Spirit, of the Charismatics," [inserted a bunch of supporting lies and half-truths] "is not God." Since the Holy Spirit of the Charismatics is the Holy Spirit of the Bible, God's Spirit, Johnny Mac blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and according to Jesus, blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or the one to come.

Ah ok
 
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lismore

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Hello Friends!

One issue I would suggest is that discussions on tongues can sometimes overshadow The Baptism of the Holy Spirit altogether. We who have received this will know what a wonderful empowering, life-changing experience this can be. It's an experience every believer can have, our Father will not withhold good gifts- the Holy Spirit- from us. A lot of people seem to knock or mock tongues, but the Baptism cannot be so easily knocked IMO. Also the part about prophecy, more than just tongues is imparted. Perhaps it's good to talk about them together. Like:

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19:6)

God Bless :)
 
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There are those who are so opposed to tongues, that they will not consider any verses from 1 Corinthians that show the truth about the gift and how it is to be manifested. When we have tried our best to show what Paul actually said about tongues, that it can not only be used in the church along with interpretation, but also as a prayer language to be used in private with God, who understands what is being spoken and responds to it with Scripture insights and direct application of Scripture to the issues being prayed about.

I got to the point with one fellow, the Holy Spirit had to tell me, "Let him who is ignorant, let him be ignorant still". When the fellow demanded that I submit my tongue in a recording for linguists to examine, the Holy Spirit said to me, "You don't have to do anything like that to be a man-pleaser. Just trust My Word and continue just to please God. Pleasing God takes precedence over pleasing any man. So be a God-pleaser, not a man-pleaser". The fellow's response was to quote the Scripture, "test every spirit", implying that what I received was not from the Holy Spirit but from another spirit. It just shows that when these unlearned opposers run out of answers in the face of a Spirit-filled believer standing resolute in his faith in the Word, they start to accuse him of listening to a demon spirit instead of the Holy Spirit. When I received that post, the Holy Spirit said to me, "Jesus' sheep know His voice. They know Him and they follow Him. They will not follow the voice of a stranger."
So, I ended the discussion by telling the fellow that he can believe what he wants to believe.

We don't have to defend our baptism with the Spirit, our prophetic or tongues gift. We can stand confidently and resolutely on God's Word, and regardless of what others believe, as for us, we believe that what God has given us in the Holy Spirit is true and right.
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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I have seen evidence of at least three different tongue gifts...

One is for personal edification and some mistakenly use this in church and of course there is no interpretation. This leads to confusion.

Two is the gift that is interpreted and this is for a sign to unbelievers who may be in attendance.

Three is a tongue of rebuke that assists spiritual warfare. Sometime I awake speaking sternly in a tongue I have never heard before, and oppression lifts...

Tongues is a precious gift.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

What I teach is that there are 3 Tongues in Scripture:

1) Pentecost miracle of each person hearing one message in their own language
2) Messages in Tongues with Interpretation (for use in the Assembly)
3) Praying in Tongues aka Praying in the Spirit (not for the Assembly but personal, private edification only)

I would call your #1 and #3 the same thing, and add the miracle of Pentecost to get 3.

But I agree with you!
 
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lismore

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Pentecost miracle of each person hearing one message in their own language

Hello Jonathan. Would you say at the day of Pentecost that the miracle was in the people hearing the gospel in their own language rather than the disciples speaking in different languages? God Bless :)
 
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