Antinomianism and you

Saint Steven

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Indeed obsolete. Why do you ignore the context of that verse? The chapter starts out by referencing Jesus as our great high priest who is the mediator of a better covenant. No more need for priests to offer sacrifices on our behalf since Jesus is not only our great high priest but also the lamb who was sacrificed on our behalf. The old covenant was thus made obsolete because as I wrote earlier it was INSUFFICIENT to obtain our redemption. Jesus said he is the FULFILLMENT of the law and not the abolishment of the law as you mistakenly assert. I prefer to believe Jesus.
Make up your mind. First you said: "Christ did not make the law obsolete." Now you say: "Indeed obsolete."
Now you say: "Jesus said he is the FULFILLMENT of the law and not the abolishment of the law as you mistakenly assert." When he actually said, "the Law or the Prophets".
 
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Saint Steven

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So are we or are we not "released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law"?
You went beyond the definition when you claimed that "antinomianism describes the idea that the entirety of the law is abolished, meaning in effect, there is no such thing as sin."

We are not saying that not being under the law means "there is no such thing as sin."
The Ten Commandments and the rest of the law was given to the Israelites alone through Moses.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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Well think about that are still effectively required in the New Testament witness, love God with all your heart, mind soul and strength. Then when you look at the first two commandments, I don't think God wants us worshiping or making idols in the New Testament xhurch. Paul in Colosians tells us:

Put to death then what belongs to your earthly nature; sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry. (Col. 5:5).

If you really think about it most of the comnandments are confirmed in the New Testament witness. Paul does elaborate at length about coveteousness in Romans 7, the Law was fine but within ourselves is sin that opposes the things of God, the Law is teaching us right, it just can't provide righteousness.
But you claimed that "the Law is still our teacher." (like a schoolmaster)
And I showed you that was not true. Yet you continue to claim "the Law is still our teacher." You need to sort this out.

Galatians 3:23-25 KJV
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
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FireDragon76

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But you claimed that "the Law is still our teacher." (like a schoolmaster)
And I showed you that was not true. Yet you continue to claim "the Law is still our teacher." You need to sort this out.

Galatians 3:23-25 KJV
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

It's important to keep in mind the limits of an analogy.

The Law still reflects something of God's will, and is therefore useful as a guide, but it does not condemn those who are in Christ.

The reason this is true is because human beings are psychologically complicated , and so are Christians. We live in multiple dimensions at once and can experience doubt and belief at the same time. Law and Gospel speak to different aspects of our lived-experience.
 
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Dave L

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Dave we have been over this numerous times. The 2 "new" commandments are in the Torah... Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18
Where would you like for me to start? Proving the Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant? That the New Covenant entirely replaced the Old? That the Ten Commandments were for wicked people to force them to act as though they loved God and people under threat of death? That the Two Great Commandments are for believers of all times? Pick one..........
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I believe the Scriptures alone are sufficient in instructing us in salvation. Jesus himself seemed to think so, as well.

Appeal to tradition is simply another man trying to put you into spiritual bondage to a a wax nose that is shaped to suit the fallen flesh of sinners (typically powerful and oppressive sinners). As Luther stood on Scriptures and clear reason, so do I. Even human philosophers recognize appeals to tradition as a logical fallacy.


Not a Waxed nose

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.


I noticed your denomination is in sharp decline, and a lot of it has to do with it not being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition that the rest of the Lutheran heritage accepts.

ELCA Hits Bottom | Robert Benne
 
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FireDragon76

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Not a Waxed nose

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.


I noticed your denomination is in sharp decline, and a lot of it has to do with it not being faithful to the Apostolic Tradition that the rest of the Lutheran heritage accepts.

ELCA Hits Bottom | Robert Benne

It is true our church is in decline, but this must be kept in perspective: most churches in the US are in decline. Both the LCMS and ELCA are losing members. The LCMS's demographics, rather than their churchmanship, accounts for a slower decline.

The "rest of the Lutheran heritage" is either represented by poor third world nations or a very small number of Lutherans that left Germany and continue to insist that they alone are right. Because most of the historic Lutheran churches in Europe actually agree with us.

The magazine First Things is a political magazine disguised as religion, veiling their politics in spiritual rhetoric. I would not pay much attention to anything it has to say on the subject.
 
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Saint Steven

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It's important to keep in mind the limits of an analogy.

The Law still reflects something of God's will, and is therefore useful as a guide, but it does not condemn those who are in Christ.

The reason this is true is because human beings are psychologically complicated , and so are Christians. We live in multiple dimensions at once and can experience doubt and belief at the same time. Law and Gospel speak to different aspects of our lived-experience.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
 
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mark kennedy

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But you claimed that "the Law is still our teacher." (like a schoolmaster)
And I showed you that was not true. Yet you continue to claim "the Law is still our teacher." You need to sort this out.

Galatians 3:23-25 KJV
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Your mixing your metaphors, I'm not really contradicting what your saying:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. (Romans 3:21)
Both the Law and the Prophets testify to the righteousness of God. There is also a natural revelation that shows us God's divine attributes and eternal nature (Rom. 1:18-20), there is the law of conscience (Romans 2:14-15). 'But now', the two most important words in Romans if not Scripture, the actual righteousness of God has been made known, in Christ.

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. (Galatians 3:21-22)
The Law itself was never the problem, we are the problem, the Law was telling us what the righteous requirements of God were, it just couldn't provide it. Paul even said the commandment (thou shall not covet) was, 'holy, righteous and good' (see Rom. 7:11-13). The problem has never been the Law itself, the problem is within us, within you, and within me, where we cry along with the Apostle, 'Oh wretched man that I am'!

What I am trying to explain is there is a balance between the Antinomianism of the gnostics, which is licentiousness, and the legalism of the ancient Jews that Jesus was at odds with. If your walking along a path, does it really matter which ditch on either side you fall into? Jesus explains toward the end of the Sermon on the Mount, 'But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matt. 7:14)

I know what your saying about the Law being a schoolmaster, even a taskmaster. The righteousness of God in Christ is the very embodiment of the Law, in spirit and truth. What we are not going to get any benefit from is circumcision and observing rites and rituals that are shadows of the righteousness that is by grace through faith.

To be sure, this is not a simple matter, theologians have wrestled with this the entire history of the Church. My approach is to bear in mind there are two extremes, legalism and licentiousness and both are equally dangerous to us spiritually.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Much of the thread seems to be rehashing the Luther vs. Agricola conflict.


Agricola and the Antinomians did not deny the presence of sin in the life of the Christian. However, they saw the Law as a dead letter, which by no means could bring about repentance. Repentance is brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus teaches in John 14-16, and the antinomians operated with the idea that the Holy Spirit did not work through the Law. Instead, they believed that the Holy Spirit operates only in the Gospel. Therefore, the preaching of the crucified Christ alone would lead to true repentance. Repentance from sin was not about recognizing that one had violated the Law but that one had done harm to the Son of Man, who laid down His life for the salvation of sinners.

Luther, on the other side, recognized that while the Christian remains in the flesh he is at the same time justified and yet a sinner. As such, the Law still speaks to him. Luther said, “[Since] the saints in this life do not entirely leave the old man and feel the Law in their members rebelling against the Law of their mind and bringing it into captivity (cf. Rom. 7:23), the Law must not be removed from the Church, but must be retained and faithfully driven home.”[2]

Again Luther writes, “To be sure, man is to be led to repentance through the cross and suffering of Christ. But it does not follow from there that the Law is totally useless, inefficacious, nothing, and to be removed completely. Quite the contrary, we rather come to repentance through the knowledge of the Law as well as through the knowledge of Christ’s cross or of salvation.”[3]

For Luther, if one would lose the proclamation of the Law, one would also lose the sweet gospel which sets sinners free from condemnation. He said, “Yet it is safest to turn to a middle road, to turn too much neither to the right nor to the left. For both are dangerous, and, as I said already, for this reason also, the office of the word was instituted, that we might teach both, that is, the Law and the Gospel. The one cannot properly be taught or dealt with safely without the other…So here too one must divide well, lest only one part be taught in the churches—either fear and sorrow or consolation and joy—but both at the same time.”[4] Both Law and Gospel are necessary for repentance: the Law which works contrition (sorrow for sin) and the Gospel which works faith in the promise of forgiveness.


https://lutheranreformation.org/history/the-antinomian-disputations/
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Where would you like for me to start? Proving the Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant? That the New Covenant entirely replaced the Old? That the Ten Commandments were for wicked people to force them to act as though they loved God and people under threat of death? That the Two Great Commandments are for believers of all times? Pick one..........

So all the Apostles, Prophets and Yeshua Himself were wicked because they followed Torah...? What IS the New Covenant Dave? Where would I like you to start? How about acknowledging the 2 you like to quote are directly from the Torah..
 
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FireDragon76

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The difference is that I don't think it's particularly Lutheran to say repentance is a condition for justification, which is what many other churches imply- they view justification as something humans initiate and that only then God can accept. The old medieval idea that you do what is in you, the sort of thing that tortured Luther.
 
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Dave L

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So all the Apostles, Prophets and Yeshua Himself were wicked because they followed Torah...? What IS the New Covenant Dave? Where would I like you to start? How about acknowledging the 2 you like to quote are directly from the Torah..
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

The born again fulfilled the Ten Commandments having the Two Great Commandments revealed in their hearts.
 
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FireDragon76

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My own religious tradition does not understand Law in the sense of just Mosaic law, but includes all existential threats under that concept. The Law, as such, is not Jewish.
 
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mark kennedy

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“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

The born again fulfilled the Ten Commandments having the Two Great Commandments revealed in their hearts.
Most of the Ten Commandments are represented in the New Testament. The Sabbath and taking the Lord's name in vain....well...kind of.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Mortal and venial sin is found throughout the old testament. Sacrifices in the temple were offered for "sins of ignorance" and not for intentional sins. There was no sacrifice for mortal sins, including murder or adultery. They required the death of the sinner. They were mortal.
No such distinction made in scripture. Jesus did for all manner of sins.
 
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Dave L

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Most of the Ten Commandments are represented in the New Testament. The Sabbath and taking the Lord's name in vain....well...kind of.
Paul says love fulfills the law. We use the TC as commentary, and instruction. Also to check our thoughts.
 
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