Evidence of Christs coming

DavidPT said:

Of course it's not literal, as in someone actually sitting on a literal cloud with a literal sharp sickle in hand. Yet the account still has to be logical and can't contradict other Scriptures like I provided where that indicated angels are the reapers and not Christ.

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The Messengers could be symbolizing Priests, of which Jesus was a High Priest on the order of Melchizedek.

A lot of the events in Revelation revolve around the Sanctuary/Tabernacle, including the Golden Altar of Incense.

I have an interesting post on the 7 Messengers with the 7 Trumpets on this thread if any are interested.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

Joshua 6:4
and seven priests do bear seven trumpets of the jubilee before the ark, and on the seventh day ye compass the City seven times,
and the priests blow with the trumpets,

Revelation 8:6
And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets
make ready themselves, that they should be trumpeting

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets
Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets.
Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
==========
Forward to the 2 minute mark to hear the Trumpet.....
Best viewed full screen

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Luk 12:49
“I came to cast fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

There was both an Altar of Sacrifice and Golden Altar

Rev 8:5
and the messenger took the censer, and did fill it out of the fire of the Altar, and did cast it to the earth, and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 14:18
and another messenger did come forth out from the Altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying,
'Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;'

LittleLambofJesus said:

Rev 8:5
and the messenger took the censer, and did fill it out of the fire of the Altar, and did cast it to the earth, and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 14:18
and another messenger did come forth out from the Altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying,
'Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;'

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2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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mkgal1 said:

That's good, because it's not literal. You seem to be limiting God to a physical being - and He's not limited or bound to physical realities.

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I haven't really studied on angels in the Bible, but I have always been interested in the 7 Angels with the 7 trumpets.

Paul mentions the Lord Himself in shout of command, in sound/voice of Chief/ArchAngel

743. arch-aggelos ar-khang'-el-os from 757 and 32; a chief angel:--archangel.
757. archo ar'-kho a primary verb; to be first (in political rank or power):--reign (rule) over.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That the Lord Himself in shout of command, in sound/voice of Chief/Arch Angel<arch-aggelos 743> and in trumpet of God shall be descending from heaven and the dead in Christ shall be resurrecting first.
[1 Corinthians 14:8]

Used in 1 other verse in the NT

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the Archangel<arch-aggelos 743>, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
Rev 12:7
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
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Archangel has the same prefix as Chief Priest

749. arch-iereus ar-khee-er-yuce' from 746 and 2409; the high-priest (literally, of the Jews, typically, Christ); by extension a chief priest:--chief (high) priest, chief of the priests.
746. arche ar-khay' from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--

Mat 2:4
And when he had gathered all the chief priests<arch-iereus749> and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
Here is the last trump in Revelation.

Revelation 8:6
And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets
make ready themselves, that they should be trumpeting

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh Messenger trumpets and became great voices/sounds in the heaven saying "became the Kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him and He shall be reigning into the ages of the Ages.
16 The twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God's throne, fall on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give you thanks, Lord God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was; because you have taken your great power, and reigned.

Seven Archangels - Wikipedia

Bible
The term archangel itself is not found in equivalent in the Hebrew Bible, and in the Greek New Testament the term archangel only occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and the Epistle of Jude 1:9, where it is used of Michael, who in Daniel 10:13 is called 'one of the chief princes,' and 'the great prince'. In the Septuagint this is rendered "the great angel".

In the Catholic Church, three archangels are mentioned by name in its canon of scripture: Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. Raphael appears in the deuterocanonical Book of Tobit, where he is described as "one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the lord of spirits",[5] a phrase recalled in Revelation 8:2–6.

Some strands of the Eastern Orthodox Church, exemplified in the Orthodox Slavonic Bible (Ostrog Bible, Elizabeth Bible, and later consequently Russian Synodal Bible), recognize as authoritative also 2 Esdras, which mentions Uriel.
The Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine tradition, venerate seven archangels and sometimes an eighth.
Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Selaphiel (Salathiel), Jegudiel (Jehudiel), Barachiel, and the eighth, Jerahmeel (Jeremiel) (The Synaxis of the Chief of the Heavenly Hosts, Archangel Michael and the Other Heavenly Bodiless Powers: Feast Day: November 8).[6]

As well as Uriel, the Book of Enoch, not regarded as canonical by any of these Christian churches, mentions (chapter 21) Raguel, Sariel, and Jerahmeel, while other apocryphal sources give instead the names Izidkiel, Hanael, and Kepharel.[7]

In the Coptic Orthodox tradition the seven archangels are named as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Suriel, Zadkiel, Sarathiel, and Aniel.[8][9][10]

In Anglican and Episcopal tradition, there are three or four archangels in the calendar for September 29, the feast of St Michael and All Angels (also called Michaelmas), namely Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael,[11] and often also Uriel.[12][13][14][15][16]

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Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

Revelation 8:6
And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets
make ready themselves, that they should be trumpeting

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets
Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish Wars

LittleLambofJesus said:

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets
Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation

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Are you attempting to claim the seven trumpets of the Book of Revelation were blown during 70 AD?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

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shilohsfoal said:

Well.From now on would mean Caiaphas had to see jesuscoming in the clouds when Jesus was speaking to him.The word NOW is the present moment.
So from now on,would mean from that moment on.

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Again, from post #129, the event determines the timing for the phrase "from now on"

If I said "from now on my favorite color is green", does that mean from that second on my favorite color is green? Yes

If I said "from now on I will drink coffee that is hot", does that mean from that second on I am drinking coffee that is hot? No. It means that when I do drink coffee it will be hot.

So the event determines the timing of the "from now on". Jesus was about to suffer, rise again, and enter glory, thus fulfilling the many prophecies written about him. The ones he mentions to Caiaphus, and the surrounding crowd, are from psalm 110 and Daniel 7

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Daniel 7:13-14 and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship

When these would be fulfilled determines the timing of the "from now on".

shilohsfoal said:

Now Jesus had not asceded into the clouds unto after his resurection.

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Correct

shilohsfoal said:

So Caiaphas could have recieved a vision or a dream,seeing Christ sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds.Its possible.

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it could also mean that Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13 during the time of Caiaphus:

Matthew 26:64 “You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

shilohsfoal said:

But since Caiaphas died in 37 ad ,he did not see much of anything else after the cross.He wasnt around to see the disporah.

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I agree, so this brings us back to the point that needs to be addressed in the OP. If Caiaphus died in 36-37AD how could he from now on see Christ sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds?

shilohsfoal said:

So you are claiming Caiaphas saw Jesus ascend to the throne.

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Did Jesus say it?

Matthew 26:64 “You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

shilohsfoal said:

Is that Caiaphas's testimony or are you Caiaphas's spokesman making a testimony for Caiaphas?

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I trust the words of Jesus, that it was true. Do you not trust that Jesus' words?

Was Jesus wrong and caiaphus did not really from now on see Jesus sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds?

shilohsfoal said:

You do know that most translations of mathew and mark dont say "from now on"dont you?
Here is the king james vesion of the same versr.

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You do know the greek words in the passage are "ap arti opsesthe" which literally read "from now you will see", don't you?

shilohsfoal said:

It means from this moment forward.But other translations say in the future.

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Do you believe Jesus came on the clouds to the Father and sat at the right hand during Caiaphas' lifetime or is it still future event that has not yet happened?

shilohsfoal said:

,i get people trying thier best to convice me that someone else saw Jesus coming in the clouds even though that person had never saida word about it as far as they know.
This is hilarious

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What's more interesting, is that for some reason I need to prove that when Jesus says something is to happen, it happens. Because You seem to not believe what Jesus tells caiaphus in Mathew 26:64 to be true.

Jesus is God, right? If Jesus says Caiaphus will from now see Jesus sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds, why would I need Caiaphus' testimony? Are Jesus' words not good enough?

claninja said:

Do you believe Jesus came on the clouds to the Father and sat at the right hand during Caiaphas' lifetime or is it still future event that has not yet happened?

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I am sure Caiaphas was alive when Jesus ascended in Acts 1.

Here is Daniel and the NT concerning Jesus and His Father's throne:

Daniel 7:13
Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold!
With clouds of the heavens as son of a mortal/0606 'enash arriving he was,
and unto ancient of the days He reached, and before Him they bring near Him [Revelation 12:5]

I have a thread on the birth and ascension of Jesus as shown in Revelation for those interested:

Jesus' Birth, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension in Revelation.

Luk 1:32
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest;
and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

The famous Garden discourse in John:

John 17:11
And not still I-am in the world, and these in the world are,
and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Revelation 12:5]

Heb 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male, [Isaiah 9:6 Luke 2:7] Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
And caught-away the Child of her toward/proV <4314> the GOD and His throne.[Acts 1:9]

Revelation 1:18
and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I AM living into the Ages of the Ages,
and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Revelation 3:21
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

DavidPT said:

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Isn't the chronology backwards from that of Daniel 7:13-14 though? In Daniel 7 doesn't He come in the clouds of heaven first? And after He has arrived He is then rewarded with sitting on the right hand of power? Why would Matthew 26:64 have the order reversed if this is referring to the ascension event recorded in Daniel 7:13-14 ? The chronology in Matthew 26:64 appears to be the ascension followed by the return from the ascension then.

In Daniel 7:13-14 He obviously didn't already sit on the right hand of power before He even came in the clouds of heaven. Clearly it was the other way around.

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We could argue all kinds of different ways as to why Jesus ordered Matthew 26:64 the way he did.

I could argue chronologically in scripture, Psalm 110 came before Daniel 7.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord:“Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.

daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

Thus in matthew 26:64, he quotes them in order, first psalm 110, then Daniel 7.