Battle of Dual Covenant Theology and the Charge of "Replacement Theology"

What I am thinking is that there needs to be couple of thread tag options for those who believe a replacement theology doctrine and them who don't. That way the threads don't get sidetracked if the original poster doesn't want to deal with thebog down.

BABerean2 said:

Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

Click to expand...

The thread needs to be in a different forum. One on New Covenant theology, just as if someone wanted to promote Catholicism theology, or Baptist theology, or Mormon theology, or 7th day Adventist theology, etc.

Douggg said:

What I am thinking is that there needs to be couple of thread tag options for those who believe a replacement theology doctrine and them who don't. That way the threads don't get sidetracked if the original poster doesn't want to deal with thebog down.

Click to expand...

Don't you know that the label of 'Replacement Theology', [RT] is applied to those who show that the Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people and they will not be redeemed at the Return of Jesus.
I am one who points out those truths and am abused, vilified and told I am a false teacher by those who must have the Jews on earth, while they go to heaven in a 'rapture'.

So, it is actually 'rapture to heaven of the Church' believers who are the real RT promoters, they believe in the false theory of Two People, Two Promises; the Christians and Israel, namely the Jews; have separate destinies.
All quite contrary to what the Bible actually does tell us, but no matter how much scripture we rejecters of the 'rapture' provide, they remain locked into that Satanic lie and they often use abuse and blatant hatred against us.

You, Douggg, have been here a long time, you know very well that there has been many times that ample proof has been provided to show the true, faithful people of God have been around since Abel and are today all those born again Christian believers; His people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
One chosen people, standing strong, trusting in the Lord for their protection during all that must happen until Jesus Returns.

keras said:

Don't you know that the label of 'Replacement Theology', [RT] is applied to those who show that the Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people and they will not be redeemed at the Return of Jesus.
I am one who points out those truths and am abused, vilified and told I am a false teacher by those who must have the Jews on earth, while they go to heaven in a 'rapture'.

So, it is actually 'rapture to heaven of the Church' believers who are the real RT promoters, they believe in the false theory of Two People, Two Promises; the Christians and Israel, namely the Jews; have separate destinies.
All quite contrary to what the Bible actually does tell us, but no matter how much scripture we rejecters of the 'rapture' provide, they remain locked into that Satanic lie and they often use abuse and blatant hatred against us.

You, Douggg, have been here a long time, you know very well that there has been many times that ample proof has been provided to show the true, faithful people of God have been around since Abel and are today all those born again Christian believers; His people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
One chosen people, standing strong, trusting in the Lord for their protection during all that must happen until Jesus Returns.

Click to expand...

I am not saying that people should not be allowed to hold whatever views they want. I am saying the threads get bogged down and diverted because of the polarity is too severe. And that it should be a thread tag option to say "non- replacement theology".

There was a similar action taken about 4 or 5 years ago because partial preterist were diverting all the threads, such that the topics became preterists versus non-preterist. So the tag system was setup.

We now have a similar situation in the promotion of (so-called) "new covenant" theology. Which a core element of it is replacement theology.

I would put it on the threads I initiate. I made a suggestion in the Suggest New Forums forum.

Need a new tag added in the Eschatology forum

keras said:

The holy people of God, every born again Christian, are from every tribe, race, nation and language on earth. Revelation 5:9-10

But God does have a secret, He knows who and where the 10 tribes are now and it seems that they have, in the main, become Christian. This proves that Jesus's mission did not fail. Matthew 15:24

Click to expand...

It’s clear you do not grasp the OT prophecies about what part the 10 tribes play in this gospel age. While the gospel results in one people in Christ, nevertheless, the 10 tribes represent the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard, while the gentiles represent the fruit. This was affirmed by Peter.


Verse 10 was taken directly from Hosea 2:23 regarding the 10 tribes. Replacement theology destroys this original intent, the grammatical-historical sense, and by doing so they corrupt the interpretation of the Old as well as the New Testaments.

keras said:

You display the usual hatred of 'Replacement Theology'. You must do this, as a believer in a 'rapture to heaven', pre, mid, post or whenever, you must have the Jews on earth while you sit in heaven. All totally unscriptural nonsense, a fairy tale of Hollywood proportions.

NO ONE is replaced. There has always been a faithful people of God, from Abel to Elijah's 7000, to the early Jesus followers, until today; every truly born again Christian. Jew, Gentiles, all the faithful peoples.

Click to expand...

It is obvious that you are the one displaying enmity by misrepresenting me, putting words in my mouth, or resorting to ad hominem to uphold your presuppositions. Your enmity is myopic or proves you haven’t truly read my posts on these threads where I have been refuting dispensationalism as well as replacement theology. And as to your imprudence about replacement theology, it’s position that the prophecies about the restoration of Israel were conditioned upon their “works” is clearly heretical, it does not stand-up under scrutiny. Your attempt to misinterpret the “nation” in Matthew 21:43 as an amalgamation of all races is a typical example. The Greek word ethnei is in the singular form, as the term for nation is in 1 Peter 2:9. While one is able to apply ethnei in a much inferior sense to this amalgamation of all races, which your Replacement theology asserts, in the principal or grammatical-historical sense it most assuredly applies to the 10 tribes in Zechariah 10:7-9, who were prophesied to be called (hissed for) and gathered in Christ at the first advent, and then scattered throughout the nations.


Zechariah prophesied after the return from the Babylonian captivity of another diaspora. Zechariah affirms that it is Ephraim that is scattered and worships in truth in this age; it is the nation that takes the gospel to the gentiles and by doing so they inherit the gentiles in Isaiah 54:3. The open theism that Replacement theology is subject to attacks the omniscience of God and makes him like a man who repents on his promises to Israel, Ephraim in particular.

jgr said:

Faith and obedience have never required an apology.



You seem unwilling to understand that Israel was multiracial from its beginning, and throughout the entirety of its history. “Biology” was never a covenant qualification. Faith and obedience were the sole and exclusive covenant criteria, as they have always been. The unfaithful and disobedient invariably ended up prematurely dead, irrespective of their biology.

Korah and his followers were fully biologically qualified. It didn't save them from destruction. Nor did it save the thousands who perished in the ensuing plague. (Numbers 16)

The promises were to Christ, and those who are in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,28,29). "There is neither Jew nor Greek" explicitly excludes biology as a covenant criterion.

Provide one Scripture which demonstrates your supersessionist replacement claim that biology supersedes and replaces faith and obedience as God's covenant requisite.

Today, Jewish "biology" is found in virtually the entire human race. The outcome of your claims is thus salvation for all, i.e. universalism.



The church is not a "phenomenon". It is an ageless vehicle God has used for communing with His people, beginning in the Old Testament. (Acts 7:38)



It is extremely easy to find Christ in the OT, for it is all about Him, as He declared; and the only people he has ever been bound to are the literal and symbolic "7,000" of faith and obedience. (1 Kings 19:18; Acts 10:34,35)

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures



There is no instance in Scripture where the "elect" are identified biologically.
In every instance, they are identified spiritually, by faith and obedience.

Click to expand...

The unwillingness to comprehend rather lies in you. The grammatical-historical meaning of the word “Israel” in the Old Testament is bound to the biological descendants, albeit the ultimate promises were only to the elect. The biological descendants were “born” as full citizens of Israel. Gentiles could be included but they had to convert and obey the Old Covenant, such as circumcision for the males. In some cases, the gentiles were not allowed to convert until a number of generations had passed in the land. Point being, many are called, or born as members of the house of Israel, but only a few are chosen “in Christ” to receive the ultimate promises. Furthermore, of the extreme minority of the gentiles who converted an even fewer number would be found “in Christ,” all of which you are remiss in comprehending.

The ultimate promises to Israel were to come to fruition under the New Covenant and they were to include the gentiles without the previous conditions of conversion. It’s apparent you are remiss in this and don’t even grasp what Replacement theology is. I’m not espousing supersessionism here, you are.

parousia70 said:

So when you said “read the thread” I was supposed to know you didn’t mean THIS thread, but instead you meant another thread and I was supposed to know what thread that was?
Really?



Got a specific year for this at least?

What I asked was “WHEN do you say this happened?”

30 AD?
Nope... we can rule that and anything earlier out, for Matthew 21 is clear, it happens AFTER the Son Is killed..

So, what say you?
50 AD?
70 AD?
90 AD?
Later than that?

Within a decade will do...

So, again, WHEN do you say this happened?

I’m suspicious about why all the gymnastics just to avoid the simple answer to my simple question.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I’m not avoiding anything but I am limited in giving these forums my complete attention. The prophecies that the 10 tribes are to inherit the gentiles, Isaiah 54:3, is based upon Christ’s body releasing both houses from the Old Covenant, Romans 7:1-4, and the great commission, Matthew 28:19-20, which takes a modicum of time to proceed. By the end of the first-century it is well under way.

BABerean2 said:

You cannot have it both ways.
Either you are standing in opposition to what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, or you are not.
Either Paul is confused, or you are confused.




The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed (Christ), with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:6-8.

It replaces the "son" who is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

It ignores the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant.
Who do you think Peter was talking to?

If ignores the fact that James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes".
Who do you think James was talking to?

.

Click to expand...

It is obvious you are uninformed about the nature of Replacement theology. Let me cite an article that advocates the doctrine.


You are trying to hide the OT prophecies about Ephraim by citing a New Covenant tenant abjuring genealogy. That’s Replacement theology.

Jerryhuerta said:

The unwillingness to comprehend rather lies in you. The grammatical-historical meaning of the word “Israel” in the Old Testament is bound to the biological descendants, albeit the ultimate promises were only to the elect. The biological descendants were “born” as full citizens of Israel. Gentiles could be included but they had to convert and obey the Old Covenant, such as circumcision for the males. In some cases, the gentiles were not allowed to convert until a number of generations had passed in the land. Point being, many are called, or born as members of the house of Israel, but only a few are chosen “in Christ” to receive the ultimate promises. Furthermore, of the extreme minority of the gentiles who converted an even fewer number would be found “in Christ,” all of which you are remiss in comprehending.

The ultimate promises to Israel were to come to fruition under the New Covenant and they were to include the gentiles without the previous conditions of conversion. It’s apparent you are remiss in this and don’t even grasp what Replacement theology is. I’m not espousing supersessionism here, you are.

Click to expand...

You've provided no Scripture disproving any of the Scripture which I've provided, or any of the genetically-related information which I've provided in earlier posts.

The invitation for you to do so is always extended.

But if you are agreeing that only those "in Christ" are the elect, completely irrespective of DNA, then we are both in agreement.

They come to be "in Christ" exclusively through faith and obedience.

Additionally, what recognized scholars and apologists in the annals of more than eighteen centuries of orthodox historical true Church doctrine accorded Ephraim any significance in the New Covenant?

Jerryhuerta said:

Your attempt to misinterpret the “nation” in Matthew 21:43 as an amalgamation of all races is a typical example.

Click to expand...

All Christians are the people of God, the Overcomers for God, literally; the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16, Revelation 5:9-10
They come from every tribe of ancient Israel, every race and language of the world. The do not yet form a cohesive nation, but that will come in the future. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:9

The whole issue of the ten lost tribes and who the people really are that call themselves Israel today, is God's secret. He knows, Amos 9:9, and it may be that the majority of faithful Christians are Israelite by descent, we don't know and its just a waste of time to speculate about it.

jgr said:

You've provided no Scripture disproving any of the Scripture which I've provided, or any of the genetically-related information which I've provided in earlier posts.

The invitation for you to do so is always extended.

But if you are agreeing that only those "in Christ" are the elect, completely irrespective of DNA, then we are both in agreement.

They come to be "in Christ" exclusively through faith and obedience.

Additionally, what recognized scholars and apologists in the annals of more than eighteen centuries of orthodox historical true Church doctrine accorded Ephraim any significance in the New Covenant?

Click to expand...

Oh please! Even in the NT the New Covenant is to Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8). It is from the promise in Jeremiah 31. Matthew testifies Christ did not initially come for the gentiles.


The consequences are that prior to the New Covenant the children of God were determined by biology; they were born into it while the gentiles had to be converted. Kick against the pricks all you want, biology has played a part in God's covenant and promises from the beginning. And Ephraim was lost because they were cast off but in addition, because their house was fallen.

keras said:

All Christians are the people of God, the Overcomers for God, literally; the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16, Revelation 5:9-10
They come from every tribe of ancient Israel, every race and language of the world. The do not yet form a cohesive nation, but that will come in the future. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:9

The whole issue of the ten lost tribes and who the people really are that call themselves Israel today, is God's secret. He knows, Amos 9:9, and it may be that the majority of faithful Christians are Israelite by descent, we don't know and its just a waste of time to speculate about it.

Click to expand...

No one here is wasting time on who they are, only what is prophesied about them, like Zechariah 10 and Isaiah 54 and etcetera and etcetera. You are a poor student of the Old Testament and for this reason, don’t grasp the New.

Jerryhuerta said:

No one here is wasting time on who they are, only what is prophesied about them, like Zechariah 10 and Isaiah 54 and etcetera and etcetera. You are a poor student of the Old Testament and for this reason, don’t grasp the New.

Click to expand...

Is anyone that has a contrary view to you; 'a poor student'? It seems that is your criteria and it is an indictment against you to accuse the brethren of a lack of understanding because we see things differently.

You promote the idea that the Promises of God must pertain to the people group they were given to. Thousands of years have passed since then and the mathematics of genetic descent proves that everyone living today must have some of the genes of the Patriarchs. We are all descendants of Abraham literally AND as Christians; spiritually. Galatians 3:26-29
In your determination to have an ethnic chosen people, you ignore the NT truth of how all the Promises of God are to be fulfilled thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:2
We Christians are the inheritors of the Promises, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, + and we are the chosen people of God. John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Jerryhuerta said:

Oh please! Even in the NT the New Covenant is to Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8). It is from the promise in Jeremiah 31. Matthew testifies Christ did not initially come for the gentiles.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5-6​

The consequences are that prior to the New Covenant the children of God were determined by biology; they were born into it while the gentiles had to be converted. Kick against the pricks all you want, biology has played a part in God's covenant and promises from the beginning. And Ephraim was lost because they were cast off but in addition, because their house was fallen.

Click to expand...

Korah et al were "born into it".

Why then did God destroy them?

Jerryhuerta said: ↑
Oh please! Even in the NT the New Covenant is to Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8). It is from the promise in Jeremiah 31. Matthew testifies Christ did not initially come for the gentiles.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5-6

The consequences are that prior to the New Covenant the children of God were determined by biology; they were born into it while the gentiles had to be converted. Kick against the pricks all you want, biology has played a part in God's covenant and promises from the beginning. And Ephraim was lost because they were cast off but in addition, because their house was fallen.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Korah et al were "born into it".

Why then did God destroy them?

Click to expand...

Numbers 16:30-35 and Jude 1 explains it............

Jude 1:11
Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Rev 2:14
“But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Numbers 16:
30 But if the LORD brings about something unprecedented, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them and all that belongs to them so that they go down alive into Sheol, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt.”
31 As soon as Moses had finished saying all this, the ground beneath them split open, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, all Korah’s men and all their possessions.
33 They went down alive into Sheol with all they owned. The earth closed over them, and they vanished from the assembly. 35 And fire came forth from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

A similar event happens in Revelation 12. Fascinating!

Revelation 12:
15 The Serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
16 The land helped the woman, and the land opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth. 17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.

keras said:

Is anyone that has a contrary view to you; 'a poor student'? It seems that is your criteria and it is an indictment against you to accuse the brethren of a lack of understanding because we see things differently.

You promote the idea that the Promises of God must pertain to the people group they were given to. Thousands of years have passed since then and the mathematics of genetic descent proves that everyone living today must have some of the genes of the Patriarchs. We are all descendants of Abraham literally AND as Christians; spiritually. Galatians 3:26-29
In your determination to have an ethnic chosen people, you ignore the NT truth of how all the Promises of God are to be fulfilled thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:2
We Christians are the inheritors of the Promises, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, + and we are the chosen people of God. John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Click to expand...

Is anyone who does not agree with your view just wasting your time? Keep the ad hominem comments to yourself and I'll try the same.

And my exegeting on the promises to Ephraim and the prophecies about them determine how to interpret the NT as the NT helps in the converse. Replacement theology is a one-way street; in suppressing the prophecies of the OT they will never come to the truth about eschatology. And your concession that "everyone living today must have some of the genes of the Patriarchs" is an acknowledgment that God keeps his promises and prophecies about them; they have not "lost the Kingdom permanently" as you stated on another post.

jgr said:

Korah et al were "born into it".

Why then did God destroy them?

Click to expand...

I do believe I addressed this; many are called, few are chosen.


Again, Paul cited from Isaiah about those born of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.