Jesus has no DNA from Mary

johnnywong said:

But he is considered from the line of David through Josepth but has no genetic connection with Josepth.

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Mathetes66 said:

Thanks for getting back to me, The Righterzpen! Here are my responses. You did surprise me when you stated as if it was fact and/or scriptural: "The Holy Ghost used MARY'S DNA TO MAKE AN XY GENOME."

My question to you is: Did the Holy Spirit tell YOU this is HOW HE DID IT? I need to know if you have a direct line to Him on the secret workings & activity of God in the womb.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in that idea, did God in making Adam need help in figuring out how to make male DNA? I don't think so. Did God most likely do the same for Jesus like He did for Adam? This seems more likely & His chosen normal process of conception & fertilization would go like all others. Mary's DNA in the ovum stayed the same with God's male DNA added, like Adams. In Luke 1:31,35 it states conception occurred in Mary's womb not her fallopian tubes.

When Jesus was conceived, He was called that 'holy One.' So there is a probability that perhaps God did do it this way, since the male DNA that produced a male child, Jesus, was indeed 'holy' when united with Mary's egg in the process of conceiving. This makes better Scriptural sense to me based on the number of Scriptures--but again--I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW HE DID IT. Neither do you. God never said. That will be a good one to ask Him when we get to Paradise in the Lord's Presence.

Secondly, I am not incorrect as to what I said. Everything I said was factual with up to date information. It had to do with NATURAL conception, the way God designed it to normally happen.

You however were NOT straightforward on your info that you gave. It was an article done back in 1995. Your example was ARTIFICIAL NOT NATURAL. It was in vitro fertilization & that was done outside the body. As a result it was not natural at all. Rather than the normal process of fertilization occuring within the body, in the fallopian tubes, this was done outside the body then the eggs that were actually fertilized were implanted back into the uterus of 21 test patients with fertility problems.

Your information was man manipulating oocytes outside the body & then injecting one sperm cell (not a variety of them from which God chooses one) into it BEFORE the normal cycle. This is artificial, man manipulated. It was done to 205 oocytes from 21 patients. The process of capacitation does not occur either as it would in a normal cyle of conception. This is eliminated when done artificially.

This would not have happened to Mary. There was no in vitro fertilization in Mary's time so this articifial situation would NOT have occurred. And Mary by having other children did not have fertility problems. It is not biblical but man generated.

Second, the article never said there were 46 chromosomes in the secondary oocyte. If you understand the process of fertilization, you would know that once a sperm penetrates an oocyte/egg it takes close to 24 hours to finish fertilizing the egg. So even through artificial means, the secondary polar body has more than enough time, even in the longest ones emerging at 3 hours to emerge BEFORE THE FERTILIZATION of the egg is completed. Thus, the oocyte would have only 23 chromosomes not 46 because the secondary polar body has 23 chromosomes & separates from the oocyte before the fertilization process has been completed.

Why do i say that with absolute certainty? Because the article you quote says that the secondary polar bodies emerged in the study from 1 to the most 3 hours after sperm INJECTION. The actual oocytes were not fertilized until EIGHTEEN HOURS after injection. This is written right in the article. You should read it more carefully next time.

So whether done artificially or naturally, what I said was truthful & factual. You appeared to me not be straightforward about the article & your judgment that I was incorrect was indeed proved to be unfounded.

Several other factors need to be taken into account here as well. Here is the possible judgment on the people who do in vitro by God for their unethical practice. You will also notice in this article that they took 205 SECONDARY oocytes (not primary so division in meiosis I had already occurred in a laboratory environment) from 21 women in their study. A woman normally releases one ripe secondary ootid (of 23 chromosomes) from their egg follicle. This is called ovulation. Sometimes two can be released. The egg normally lives for up to 24 hours before disintegrating.

For them to get 205 secondary oocytes, they would have had to artifically stimulate each woman's follicles to have more eggs released, or about 10 eggs per woman. 135 of them were injected with 1 sperm cell and 70 of them were used to assess a possible negative effect of repeated exposure to light microscopy. Of the 135, 62% were viable zygotes and out of those implanted back in the uterus, only 22% were sucessful.

This begs the question: if each one of those 62% viable zygotes were human beings which only needed to be implanted in the womb to grow up to be babies, yet only 22% of those actually were successful implants, what does that say about all those human beings that were lost? This is a serious ethical situation, let alone those 70 secondary oocytes that were discarded due to continued light microscopy, rendering them useless. May God have mercy on their souls.

Here is another aspect concerning the word conceive in the Greek in Vines Expository Dictionary:

2: συλλαμβάνω (Strong's #4815 — Verb — sullambano — sool-lam-ban'-o ). Literally, "to take together" (sun, "with," lambano, "to take or receive"), is used (a) of a woman, to "conceive," Luke 1:24,31,36 in the active voice ; in the Passive Voice, Luke 2:21...

The act of conception literally means the taking & receiving together. God is all wise & here we see the picture of the egg & the sperm--taking & receiving together--to bring about the zygote, the initial beginning of a unique human being, as God places the spirit & soul within, with the breath for physical life.

Eccl 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the activity (work) of God who makes everything. (see also Psalm 139:13-16)

Several other things I thought I would mention. Someone seems to have the idea that if Jesus was conceived of Mary's DNA that Jesus would have been tainted somehow. Here is a good article about that very thing explaining the difference.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

I Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins IN HIS BODY on the tree, that we might die to sin & live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

Romans chapter 8 commentary

I would add that Jesus taught that the evil thoughts, etc. came out of the heart of our corrupted nature when we were procreated in the image & likeness of Adam. (Mark 7:14-23) Our heart is deceitful. So God searches it & reveals it to us. (Jer 17:9,10) We are not held accountable for Adam's sin. We are held accountable for our own sin. (James 1:13-16) But when Adam sinned, a curse was pronounced & through one man came sin & death to all men. (see Paul's struggle in Romans 7)

Jer 17:9 The heart is DECEITFUL above all else & desperately wicked, who can know it?

2 Cor 11:3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was DECIEVED by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple & pure devotion to Christ.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's DECEITFULNESS.

Eph 4:22 You were taught with reference to your FORMER way of life to lay aside THE OLD MAN who is being CORRUPTED in accordance with DECEITFUL DESIRES...

Rom 6:6 We know that OUR OLD MAN was crucified with Him so that the BODY OF SIN might be rendered POWERLESS, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Gen 5:1,2 IN THE DAY that God created man, He made him in His own likeness. When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, after his own image.…

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH the deeds of the body, you will live.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh & the mind & were BY NATURE the CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as the rest of mankind.

Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a POLLUTED GARMENT. We all fade like a leaf & our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Zech 3:4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.”

Colossians 3:5-10 Put to death, then, your members that are upon the earth -- fornication (whoredom), uncleanness, passion, evil desire & the covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these, the WRATH of God is coming on the CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE. When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. Do not lie to one another, having put off THE OLD MAN with his practices & having put on the new {man}, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the IMAGE OF HIM WHO DID CREATE HIM.

Rom 6:13 Do not present the members (parts) of YOUR BODY TO SIN as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM DEATH TO LIFE & present the members of your body TO HIM as instruments of righteousness.

I John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Phil 3:9 And be found IN HIM, not having a righteousness OF MY OWN that comes from the law, but that which comes THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness FROM GOD that depends on faith—

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness OF GOD has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law & the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin OF YOUR HEART & be no more stiffnecked.

Ezek 36:26 A NEW HEART also will I give you & a new spirit will I put within you & I will take away the STONY heart out of your flesh & I will give you a heart of flesh.

Eph 4:23,24 ...Be renewed in the spirit of your minds & PUT ON THE NEW MAN, the one created according to God's likeness in righteousness & purity of the truth.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation); old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.

Gen 3:10,11,21 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” And the Lord God made for Adam & for his wife garments of skins & clothed them.

Rev 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright & clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Job 23:19 I put on righteousness & it clothed me.
Rom 13:14 CLOTHE YOURSELVES with the Lord Jesus Christ & make no PROVISION for the desires of the flesh.
Psalm 132:9 May Your priests be clothed with righteousness & Your saints shout for joy.
Isaiah 59:17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate...
Isaiah 52:1 Put on thy beautiful garments...

Isaiah 61:1-11 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives & the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor & the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the GARMENT OF PRAISE instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified.

Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted, will be uprooted.

Col 2:11 IN HIM you were also CIRCUMCISED in the putting off of your flesh (body), with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.

Gal 5:24 And they that ARE Christ's have CRUCIFIED THE FLESH with the affections & lusts.

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johnnywong said:

Jesus has no DNA from Mary, because Mary is a surrogated mother only.

Then there will be no need of Immaculate Conception: the conception of the Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus.

Gestational surrogacy was first achieved in April 1986. It takes place when an embryo created by in vitro fertilization (IVF) technology is implanted in a surrogate, sometimes called a gestational carrier.

Gestational surrogacy may take a number of forms, but in each form the resulting child is genetically unrelated to the surrogate.

Holy Spirit created the embryo of Jesus inside Mary.

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SkyWriting said:

The Holy Spirit doesn't do stuff like that. If it did, then the saved would have genetic changes. That'd be cool if believers lived to 300, but the HS has no power over the physical.

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The Righterzpen said:

Interesting answer. The Holy Spirit can change DNA if desired; (the HG is God, He'd be capable of doing that). You are correct though that salvation has nothing to do with genetics!

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Mathetes66 said:

Thanks for getting back to me, The Righterzpen. It appears to me you are bearing false witness about me, which is one of God's 10 commandments.

" So the assumption here by your response; is that you believe the material world "the flesh" is what is "sinful". That assumption is incorrect. That's what the gnostics believed. "

First, that is not my assumption nor one of the points of my response. That is bearing false witness. Second, I do not believe the material world IS the flesh as you state above: 'the material world the flesh is what is sinful.' That is what you said, but that is not what I said or believe. If you had simply asked me if that is what I meant, I would be doing what I am doing now, clarifying what I meant & no bearing false witness would have occurred.

Both of those ARE two different things, although IF I am talking about the physical body specifically, it is a very small part of that which is material IN the physical, material world. Paul, as an example, refers sometimes to the physical body & other times to what Scripture refers to as the 'old man' and the 'new man.' That flesh has to do with the NATURE of fallen man, which is now corrupted (as well as the present universe) & the new nature of regenerated man. Those are not just 'physical' flesh.

Third, your assumption turns out to be bearing false witness again because I never said nor even hinted that the material world is sinful. The material world using common sense doesn't sin; people sin. And our flesh doesn't choose to sin, we choose to sin, making the members of our flesh simply instruments of sin. And as I quoted in numerous verses, sin comes out of the non-physical heart of fallen men--as Jesus taught--they are BY NATURE children of disobedience, they are by nature children under God's wrath because of their sin & rebellion against their Creator. As I showed, sin takes occasion through the weakness of our flesh, our fallen nature, our 'old man or self or sinful nature' (depending on which translation one may be quoting), deceives us & we choose to follow our carnal desires & thus we sin. This is common Christian, Biblical teaching.

I am not talking about original sin here. That is another topic altogether. I already showed in my post that we are held accountable for our own sin not Adams, although we also sin in a similar manner to his sin: we disobey God's commandments.

Fourth, your likening my supposed belief to that of gnostics is more than false witness. That is a serious charge against someone as being a heretic. I have written posts on here denouncing gnostic heretical teaching. I AGREE with you that it is non-biblical teaching. But to not only assume it but actually say I believe that amounts to slander. That is why I am confronting this in love, so that this will stop & not continue. If you have a question, don't hesitate to ask or have me clarify something. There are a lot of things we do agree on.

I agree with you that Jesus had human DNA & that without it He cannot be the Redeemer. I agree with you that the nature of God is spirit & the Holy Spirit does not have DNA in HIM because He doesn't have a physical body.

But I chose to differ with you that God might have changed Mary's DNA (neither you nor I know that), that God miraculously could have used male DNA like when creating Adam & didn't need to change Mary's DNA but simply used both to bring about conception & Jesus as a male.

I made it PLAIN & CLEAR, that that was another 'possibility' that might have happened, yet I stated I didn't know because God never told us how He specifically did it. I don't presume to be God or presume to say God did this UNLESS He reveals He did in His Word. If you want to presume that is how God did it, that is your choice. It is not mine & I made that clear; it is a 'possibility.'

"Do you have any idea what in vitro fertilization is?" Again you are questioning me as if I don't know what it is, insulting me, when IN my post i defined what it is. Are you not reading my whole post? I stated the same thing you did, except I did not mention a petrie dish because the study you quoted with so many secondary oocytes might have used containers different than a bunch of petrie dishes. The article didn't say, so I didn't 'assume' that is how they did it. But I plainly stated this was 'artificial' not natural & it was done outside the body, just as you are saying. So please don't insult me when I gave the definition right in my post.

I do apologize for the way I said the following, using CAPS:

"My question to you is: Did the Holy Spirit tell YOU this is HOW HE DID IT? I need to know if you have a direct line to Him on the secret workings & activity of God in the womb."

I was being sarcastic rather than simply asking you if God had directly told you that. I was wrong. I again apologize. That was unnecessary & rude of me. I will be respectful in the future.

"('In vitro') does not mean the process of conception is now somehow different, or that the child born due to in vitro fertilization is "less human" than one that's conceived naturally."

I never said it made a person less human. But it is different. Man is doing it artificially not naturally. That was the point I was making. And more than that, people like that 'manipulate' and destroy zygotes, that could be human beings. That is what abortion does, whether surgically or by certain contraceptives or the danger of in vitro fertilization. God is intimately involved in the whole process of conception & knitting together a person in their mother's womb. In this study, they used one sperm cell. God chooses his own sperm cell out of millions of them during intercourse.

Choosing just one sperm cell is man's selective choice to combine what he desires. Remember the Nazi's. They were experimenting to produce a master race. This is what scares me about unregenerate man doing the same once again. Experiments like this ARE occurring once again.

"In order to discharge a polar body, there has to be more than 23 chromosomes present at fertilization. (You don't seem to understand biology very well; do you?)"

I deserved the questioning here as I did that to you; neither are right or respectful.

However, I stand by what I said about the process of discharged polar bodies, using information from trained medical professionals about the natural process. That is what they said. And again you keep trying to say there has to be more than 23 chromosomes AT FERTILIZATION.

Even in the study you quoted I showed you that was incorrect as well as all the other information from medically trained professionals or people using their information. The discharge of the secondary polar body came BEFORE the egg was fertilized! The sperm was injected in the egg & penetrated--but--it took 18 hours before the oocyte was actually fertilized.

The secondary polar body meanwhile, was already discharged at the latest of 3 hours, before the egg was fertilized. That is why I suggested you read the article again to verify what I was saying. I could have quoted it directly from the article but thought that was unnecessary.

While it is true there are 46 chromosomes in the SECOND oocyte at the time the sperm cell PENETRATES the egg ARTIFICIALLY by a person, there are only 23 by the time the egg is actually fertilized (in this case 18 hours later). The other 23 went with the discarded secondary polar body at the most, 3 hours. If you want to keep insisting on this, then again, that is your choice.

"The Greek word conceive is made up of two other words. "With" and "receive" (133 times) or "take" (106 times)."

To be specific, it actually is not made up of two other words; it is made up of a prefix, 'sun' & a root word, 'lambano.'

"It does not mean "to take together"; as if there are two parties "agreeing" that "conception" should happen. God ultimately is the one who decides that, when He grants the "breath of life" and makes the organism a "living soul" and this is why "conceive" is passive voice."

I quoted directly that from a well respected Greek & Hebrew scholar, A.E. Vine in His Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & NT Words on the word 'conceive.' 'To take together' are his words on how he, as a scholar fluent in the biblical languages, defined it. Those are not my words. If you want to disagree with Mr. Vine, again that is your choice.

Here is the additional thoughts from Mr. Strong in Strongs Concordance, another scholar fluent in the biblical languages: 'to collect, to take, by implication TO TAKE PART WITH, to conceive.'

Here is another scholar, Dr. Thayer & what he wrote as to what the Greek word for conceive, 'sullambano' means: 'to take hold together with one, to assist, help: Luke 5:7; to succor, Phil 4:3; to conceive, of a woman (often so in the Sept. for הָרָה): absolutely, Luke 1:24; middle voice, to seize for oneself in a hostile sense.'

Seems these scholars seem to agree on the meaning of the word. Again if you want to disagree with them, that is your choice.

Also I never said this was 'as if there are two parties "agreeing" that "conception" should happen.' You said that not me. What I said was that the meaning of the word fit well with the idea of a sperm & an egg coming together, collecting, taking part with, taking hold together with one, etc. The Bible said all along what science has shown happens on a cellular level.

Their aren't two parties but two reproductive parts that come together & connect to bring about conception. And I agree with you that God is 'ultimately is the one who decides that.'

No disrespect to you but apparently you don't understand Greek grammar. I quoted two passages that used the same Greek word for conceive; one was in the passive & one was in the active voice. Both are true in Scripture. That was the point I was making.

"Adam was formed from the "dust of the earth". He is the only entity that is not spoken into existence."

I would differ with you on this one & here is why. The Hebrew word 'bara' is used to describe God creating Adam & also Eve. It means to create something out of nothing; it didn't exist beforehand. The English word 'formed' is a different Hebrew word, 'asah' but it also can be interchanged with bara in various Scriptures. There is also a third Hebrew word used in Genesis 1.

While it is true & I agree with you that God didn't just 'speak' & Adam was created like He did with some of the other things in creation--but he was created out of nothing. And Adam wasn't the only entity not spoken into existence. (see paragraph below) He never came into existence until that first time. The reason God used the dust of the ground is to make the physical body so that Adam could live on the physical earth. The earth had to be created & made & fashioned for it to be inhabited before man was created to live on it. It was a necessary component of his makeup along with the human spirit and the soul. Those are the invisible components that make up a human being.

One must also not limit one's understanding of creation ONLY in Genesis 1 & 2. There are hundreds of passages throughout the Bible that describe how God created & made & fashioned the heavens & the earth. I have posted all about this in another thread on here. Where does it say God created the darkness? It doesn't in Genesis 1 but in other passages it does but it doesn't say God spoke and there was darkness. Nor did God simply speak & their were angelic beings. But God did create them out of nothing and that is verified in other passages in the Bible. Here is just one article of many that a Christian scientist & teacher explains about this.

Did God create (bara) or make (asah) in Genesis 1?

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SkyWriting said:

God is capable of changing your DNA, but He'd do that before your mother was born.
God doesn't change this reality. He already changed it before time began. But through prayer God opens doors for you to see what He has already done for you.

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johnnywong said:

Jesus has no DNA from Mary, because Mary is a surrogated mother only.

Then there will be no need of Immaculate Conception: the conception of the Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus.

Gestational surrogacy was first achieved in April 1986. It takes place when an embryo created by in vitro fertilization (IVF) technology is implanted in a surrogate, sometimes called a gestational carrier.

Gestational surrogacy may take a number of forms, but in each form the resulting child is genetically unrelated to the surrogate.

Holy Spirit created the embryo of Jesus inside Mary.

Click to expand...