You've Probably Seen a Fish with Lungs in Person

PsychoSarah

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Interesting. So, God created a fish with lungs. Didn't know that.
Nay, this is but one species in an entire genus of fish like this. Not to mention fish in different genera that also have lungs, all with varying degrees of adaptations for utilizing them.

Plus, there are also mudskippers; fish so well adapted to being on land that I wouldn't be shocked if you mistook one for being an amphibian. Rather than having lungs, they actually have gills that function for both air and water.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Polypterus Senegalus, a fish regularly available in pet stores under the name "Dinosaur Bichir".

11200033.jpg

How many of you guys have seen this fish, never knowing that instead of a swim bladder that they have lungs?

These fish belong to the only genus of vertebrates that have lungs, but no trachea. I find it fascinating that this heavily implies that the evolution of lungs was initially independent of the evolution of trachea rather than those body parts developing together at the same time.

They regularly breathe air to increase their oxygen supply, regardless of water levels or quality. From what I can find on them, the only thing stopping them from being able to be entirely terrestrial is the fact that they need their bodies to stay moist.

I find it funny that people constantly demand fossil intermediates for various traits when there are living proofs of concept.

I can comfortably and categorically state that I have never seen this fish before. And I really wish I had since it is so cool!
 
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PsychoSarah

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I thought the question was,
My answer was, that they probably are finished. They have evidently found an ecological niche with stable selection criteria and will remain the way they are indefinitely. The fact that somewhere back in the past a branch of that creature's family encountered different selection criteria and evolved into something else doesn't change anything.
The idea that evolution can simply "cease" for a population has been disproven, simply by the fact that environments inevitably change, rendering new adaptations beneficial. Even Triops and other organisms called "living fossils" have changed over the course of millions of years, just not as much as most modern organisms have.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I can comfortably and categorically state that I have never seen this fish before. And I really wish I had since it is so cool!
The ones sold in pet stores are way smaller than they grow up to be; there might be some in ones near you and you just never took notice!
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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The ones sold in pet stores are way smaller than they grow up to be; there might be some in ones near you and you just never took notice!

I don't have many pet stores in my town I'm afraid, and I've certainly never seen one of these guys before. At least to the best of my recollection.
 
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Speedwell

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The idea that evolution can simply "cease" for a population has been disproven, simply by the fact that environments inevitably change, rendering new adaptations beneficial. Even Triops and other organisms called "living fossils" have changed over the course of millions of years, just not as much as most modern organisms have.
I have always thought that observation about living fossils constitutes a fine demonstration of the action of natural selection on variation.
 
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SeventyOne

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Nay, this is but one species in an entire genus of fish like this. Not to mention fish in different genera that also have lungs, all with varying degrees of adaptations for utilizing them.

Plus, there are also mudskippers; fish so well adapted to being on land that I wouldn't be shocked if you mistook one for being an amphibian. Rather than having lungs, they actually have gills that function for both air and water.

It is a cool fish, but what do you mean by 'nay'? Are you saying God couldn't create it as-is?
 
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USincognito

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Saying that does NOT mean that species have transitioned, are transitioning or are going to.

Indeed. The evidence that shows life has evolved over time is robust and one of the lines of evidence supporting evolution are transitional forms, living and fossil.

Proof would require a time machine to observe offspring, generation after generation.

Science doesn't deal in proof and there's no such thing as "scientifically proven".

I have said that many time, but it does not seem to sink in. Remember: a hypothesis not proof or natural law.

The science advocates here are well aware of the fact that a hypothesis, theory and law in science are different things. Who, exactly, are you claiming doesn't understand that? And are you under the impression that hypotheses and theories graduate into laws?
 
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USincognito

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What is sad in all this. is christians who believe science over the Bible.

Christians who accept the massive evidence for evolution are not "believing" science over the Bible. They simply understand that the evidence doesn't support a hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis and that the Bible contains theological truths, not scientific evidence.
 
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d taylor

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Christians who accept the massive evidence for evolution are not "believing" science over the Bible. They simply understand that the evidence doesn't support a hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis and that the Bible contains theological truths, not scientific evidence.
The only massive concept connected to evolution, is the lies. Which may be in the billions since science loves large numbers.
 
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Speedwell

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The only massive concept connected to evolution, is the lies. Which may be in the billions since science loves large numbers.
A lie is an intentional untruth. What is the intention?
 
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Lazarus Short

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I called it a "proof of concept". A lot of creationists argue against the existence of transitional species by claiming that certain combinations they view as necessary are physically impossible in a viable animal. This animal is a demonstration that an organism can have adequate lungs and adequate gills at the same time, as well as the capability to effectively move on land despite being an organism that generally stays in the water. That's how it serves as a proof of concept.

There are quite a few animals like this living today, but I found this one to be interesting because I've seen it in pet stores, and never suspected it had lungs.

Also, there's no such thing as literal "proof" in science, that is a thing exclusive to math. However, the evidence to support a scientific conclusion can be so vast and reliable that people treat it as "proof".

Coincidentally, via looking them up more, I found an experiment that pressured them into living a mostly terrestrial life. It's a pretty fascinating experiment as well, because the fish raised that way developed a different body structure than the ones that weren't, and the changes helped them live that way even more. How fish can learn to walk

How lifestyle options impacts evolution is not a topic often covered, so I find it very fascinating. Makes you wonder how much that can apply to humans.

Excuse me if I am not impressed with your argument. I don't accept that "proof of concept" has any relevance.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Indeed. The evidence that shows life has evolved over time is robust and one of the lines of evidence supporting evolution are transitional forms, living and fossil.

Positing that one species arose from another is nothing more than a guess. As the song says, it's turtles all the way down.
 
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Speedwell

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Positing that one species arose from another is nothing more than a guess. As the song says, it's turtles all the way down.
It has been observed, both in the lab and in the field.
 
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Positing that one species arose from another is nothing more than a guess.

I'm going to conclude that you have zero familiarity with the evidence for evolution. That can be the only reason for asserting what you have. The fossil record is full of transitional forms, but that evidence pales in comparison to the genetic evidence which conclusively supports common ancestry.
 
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The only massive concept connected to evolution, is the lies. Which may be in the billions since science loves large numbers.

Vacuous rhetoric unless you can support your contention. Tell us, what are the supposed lies? Numerous transitional fossils? Evolutionary patterns in endogenous retroviruses and shared pseudogenes? Genetic similarity? Molecular and anatomical vestiges and atavisms? Don't leave us hanging. Tell us what the "lies" are.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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Saying that does NOT mean that species have transitioned, are transitioning or are going to. Proof would require a time machine to observe offspring, generation after generation. I have said that many time, but it does not seem to sink in. Remember: a hypothesis not proof or natural law.

As I'm sure you've been told several times and doesn't seem to sink in, science does not deal in proof. It deals in evidence. And, no, you don't need a time machine, nor do you need to observe in real time a specific event that happened in the past in order to show that it likely happened a certain way. We have evidence for those things which is observed in the present. Why don't you hold your bible stories to the same standard of evidence?
 
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Transitional species? And you know they will finish transforming, how?

Technically everything is transitional as everything is always evolving. I mean what would a transitional species be to you? Would it be like a fish that walks on its fins like a land animal? Or maybe a fish that glides like a bird in the air? or like a lizard that slithers like a snake... but it's a lizard?
 
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