Tongues & the cessationists.

Dave L said:

You are not walking in the Spirit when claiming to have gifts that are clearly fraudulent.

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How are these words even possible? Perhaps a blowing up of the eyes will reveal. For "the eye is the lamp of the body".

Alithis said:

so true Oscar.

And just to clarify for jason .. I have cojoined with David strom in some training seminars late 2016 teaching people about how to heal the sick ,preach the Gospel, drive out devils etc. We saw some wonderful healings.
David is a wonderful guy and speaks in tongues ...
He opposes the false spirits infiltrating churches . He does Not Oppose the HOLY SPIRIT or the gifts of the Spirit.

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You and I may have our disagreements about attitudes to churches, but we are certainly on the same page here!

Alithis said:

Your using name calling again .
In reference to tongues.
And i had to assume you did not read the Op
As you didnt deal with the topic in it.
Go back ...read it.then feel free to address the central topic .

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The problem for these people who are trying to examine tongues linguistically is that tongues is a spiritual gift and is spiritually discerned by genuinely converted, Spirit-filled believers. Linguistic evaluation belongs to the soulish realm and therefore is not even remotely in the ball park to evaluate something spiritual that comes through the Holy Spirit. It is the same as a secular scientist saying that God is not real because he cannot gain empirical proof through the five senses. Or the Russian astronaut who orbited the earth in the 1960s and said that there is no God because he couldn't see Him out there in space!

Alithis said:

so true Oscar.

And just to clarify for jason .. I have cojoined with David strom in some training seminars late 2016 teaching people about how to heal the sick ,preach the Gospel, drive out devils etc. We saw some wonderful healings.
David is a wonderful guy and speaks in tongues ...
He opposes the false spirits infiltrating churches . He does Not Oppose the HOLY SPIRIT or the gifts of the Spirit.

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I am glad you have working relationship with Andrew Strom.

I am also not against the actual workings of the Spirit as you so falsely claim against me. I said “I don’t know.” I would have to witness to see what you are all are doing and compare it with Scripture and pray about it.

My scope of knowledge in God’s Word tells me that the miraculous gifts (not all gifts) of the Spirit have ceased. Could I be wrong? Sure. But there are a lot of Scriptures in favor of Cessationism, though.

In any event, I care for you in Jesus Christ (even if we disagree).

Jason0047 said:

I am glad you have working relationship with Andrew Strom.

I am also not against the actual workings of the Spirit as you so falsely claim against me. I said “I don’t know.” I would have to witness to see what you are all are doing and compare it with Scripture and pray about it.

My scope of knowledge in God’s Word tells me that the miraculous gifts (not all gifts) of the Spirit have ceased. Could I be wrong? Sure. But there are a lot of Scriptures in favor of Cessationism, though.

In any event, I care for you in Jesus Christ (even if we disagree).

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I don't think that there are a lot of Scriptures in favour of Cessationism. Most Cessationists depend on 1 Corinthians 13:10 for their view. I was always taught that no reliable doctrine can be founded on just one verse of Scripture; furthermore, the verse itself is not clear, but obscure about exactly when tongues and prophecy should cease. There is much more implied in Scripture that the gifts came with the Holy Spirit and are to bless believers right through the church age from Pentecost until the Second Coming. If God has said that His gifts and calling are without repentance, then why would He give such powerful and valuable gifts and then take them back? It is a principle of God's Word that His promises are without repentance. He never annuls a promise that He has given. The Scripture says that the promises of God are yes and amen to all those who believe. So it is right against the nature of God to make a promise, give spiritual tools to the church, and then take them back again and deny the use of the tools for every other believer after the Apostolic Age.

Also, the written Bible is the logos. It is just words on the page. It only has power when it becomes a prophetic rhema to us when we read it. But if prophecy has passed away, then no parts of the Word can be a rhema to us, because the prophetic nature of it has ceased! But the reality is that when sometimes we read the Word, things come right out of the page at us which are rhema, life-changing words to us. That is actually prophecy speaking to us through the pages of the Bible. According to Cessationists who believe that prophecy has passed away, it just can't happen. But it does, so go figure!

But not all who claim to be using spiritual gifts are using them correctly. When spiritual gifts are used correctly the outcome is souls being saved, bodies being healed, and demons cast out. Jesus was filled with the Spirit, and those were the outcomes of His ministry, and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to the church after He left so the same ministry can continue. He said that the works He did we shall do also, even greater works because He has gone to the Father. What were those works? healing the sick and casting out demons. The greater works are the salvation of souls and the building up of the church, two things that Jesus never did while on earth.

To take the gifts away from the Holy Spirit is to disempower Him and reduce Him to just believers having happy feelings and goosebumps up their spines. It's like taking the tools away from a mechanic and expecting him to continue fixing cars!

I can't persuade you about these things, but I hope that I have set you thinking and re-reading the New Testament to see exactly how many Scriptures clearly indicate one way or the other.

Alithis said:

God IS Spirit. .......

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I am aware of John 4:24 that says, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." I see the worship of God as loving God and loving others. For they are the two greatest commandments.

Oscarr said:

I don't think that there are a lot of Scriptures in favour of Cessationism. Most Cessationists depend on 1 Corinthians 13:10 for their view. I was always taught that no reliable doctrine can be founded on just one verse of Scripture;

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Not true. There are other verses that support Cessationism:

1. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
2. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
3. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
   
   
4. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and divine knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
   
   
5. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16). Yet, some Charismatics claim the full working of the gifts are working exactly like they did back in the day; But this is simply not true. If you believe otherwise, I would like to be invited to meet up with your group who are working by God's power exactly like the early church did back in the day.
   
   
6. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
   
   
7. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

Oscarr said:

furthermore, the verse itself is not clear, but obscure about exactly when tongues and prophecy should cease.

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That is why we do not just look to just one verse or passage alone to build a doctrine. However, I do believe 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 compared with James 1:21-24 is pretty clear in light of seeing a complete Bible and in reflection of the other verses I showed you. But people have preferences or a bias towards a particular way of thinking so they are not able to see it. I do concede that I could be wrong, and the working of the Spirit could be operating 100% but in a more hidden way today. But I am simply not aware of this working. I only have the benefit of Scripture or my Bible to guide me; And I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Much of what I have seen is not biblical. In fact, we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not.

Jason0047 said:

Not true. There are other verses that support Cessationism:

1. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
2. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
3. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
   
   
4. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and divine knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
   
   
5. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16). Yet, some Charismatics claim the full working of the gifts are working exactly like they did back in the day; But this is simply not true. If you believe otherwise, I would like to be invited to meet up with your group who are working by God's power exactly like the early church did back in the day.
   
   
6. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
   
   
7. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

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You have not produced one single Scripture that God has said that He intends to withdraw the spiritual gifts. If it has not come from the mouth of God Himself, then there is no Scriptural proof that Cessationism is anything else but a demonic deception and an insult to the Holy Spirit.

You can't cobble a set of unrelated Scriptures to try and prove your point. I think you are trying to convince yourself that Cessationism is true and continuance is false and you are using the old deceptive chestnuts produced by religious spirits to do it.

Alithis said:

None of this states what YOU are trying to twist it to say.the astounding amounts of dishonesty in that lot are shocking
And its off the topic .

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First, the title of your thread has the word "Cessationists" in it, which makes it sound like you desire to talk about Cessationists (i.e. Cessationism).

Second, how is it dishonest to post something I believe to be true? Sure, I could be wrong, but I do believe that these verses are teaching Cessationism.

Three, if you do not want anyone to talk about Cessationism, then I will respect that. I can simply move the conversation to another thread.

In any event, may the Lord's goodness be upon you tonight.

Update:

I have removed all content in my following posts after this post to you out of respect to keep the topic to your liking.

May God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

That is why we do not just look to just one verse or passage alone to build a doctrine. However, I do believe 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 compared with James 1:21-24 is pretty clear in light of seeing a complete Bible and in reflection of the other verses I showed you. But people have preferences or a bias towards a particular way of thinking so they are not able to see it. I do concede that I could be wrong, and the working of the Spirit could be operating 100% but in a more hidden way today. But I am simply not aware of this working. I only have the benefit of Scripture or my Bible to guide me; And I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Much of what I have seen is not biblical. In fact, we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not.

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Just because there is widespread misuse of all the gifts of the Spirit for personal gain in terms of reputation and money, power and control of believers, doesn't mean that the genuine Spiritual gifts are not in operation today. You might be right - they may be operating with individuals and groups outside of the public gaze so that all you see on Youtube are examples of the misuse of them.

It is interesting that a well-known healing evangelist in the 1960-1970s who had genuine healing in his services, had secular Federal Court judges to be beside him at the healing line to audit the process, and they found that the healings were totally genuine and there was nothing fraudulent about them. These Federal Court judges were not part of the evangelist's organisation and were totally unbiased, and most were not even Christian believers! So the reality of genuine healing, overseen by secular judges brings a reasonable doubt about the veracity of Cessationism.

Jason0047 said:

First, the title of your thread has the word "Cessationists" in it, which makes it sound like you desire to talk about Cessationists (i.e. Cessationism).

Second, how is it dishonest to post something I believe to be true? Sure, I could be wrong, but I do believe that these verses are teaching Cessationism.

Three, if you do not want anyone to talk about Cessationism, then I will respect that. I can simply move the conversation to another thread.

In any event, may the Lord's goodness be upon you tonight.

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But the verses don't teach Cessationism at all. They have been twisted out of context to make it appear so. This is the way that the devil quotes Scripture to deceive people into disempowering the Holy Spirit and substituting a religious spirit that is mimicking the Holy Spirit.

Jason0047 said:

I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink. If I am correct on these verses (and I believe I am), only God can reveal the truth to you about them (in His timing).

May the Lord's peace be upon you.

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What I have said to you IS the truth, and so your blood will not be on my hands when one day you might have to stand before Christ in the judgment and to answer Him why you taught others to disempower the Holy Spirit so that He could not work through you and those whom you teach the way He wanted to.

So I have warned you and therefore take no further responsibility for what you have chosen to believe.