Evidence of Christs coming
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claninja
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Did Jesus say it?
Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
the "from now on" is associated with the timing of the sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds. Do you disagree? Additionally the word for "see" does not always mean to literally see with the eyes, but is often used for spiritually understand with the mind.
So again, In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:
So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?
If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?
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I just happen to have a thread on that, but it is on the Christian Scriptures board, where I put up some of my studies to work on.
Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven
Matthew 26:
63 Yet Jesus was silent.
And the high priest answering said to Him, “I am putting under oath<1844> Thee, according of the living God, that to us Thou may be saying if Thou are being the Christ, the Son of the God.”
64 “Jesus is saying to him "Thou say”.
“Moreover I am saying to ye, from present ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of the rights of the Power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.
65
Then the High Priest rents his garments saying that, “He blasphemes!
What still need we are having of witnesses? Look! now ye hear the blasphemy of Him.
66 What to ye is seeming?”
Yet answering they said “He is deserving of death.
Mark 14:
61 But Jesus was silent and not answers nothing.
Again the high priest questioned Him and is saying to Him, “Thou are being the Christ, the Son of the God, the Blessed One?”
62 Yet Jesus said “I AM"
“and ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of the rights of the Power and coming with the clouds of the heaven.”
63 The yet High Priest rent his clothes saying “What further need still we are having of witnesses?
64 Behold! now ye hear the blasphemy.
What to ye is appearing? the yet they all condemn Him liable to be of death
========================
Revelation only shows the plural word for clouds in 1 verse.
The rest is "cloud", such as used in Luke 21:27, which is part of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.
Reve 1:7
Behold! He doth come with the clouds, and see Him shall every eye, even those who did pierce Him,
and wail because of Him shall all the Tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
The singular "cloud", such as used in Luke 21:27, is used in the rest of the book of Revelation:
Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?
Why does Luk 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?
Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;
Revelation 14:14
Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
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Will the high priest see Christ coming on the clouds?
If you would accept the scripture found below which describes the future bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead, you would see the answer.
In the future the high priest will be resurrected from the dead and will see Christ coming on the clouds, at His Second Coming.
Your Bible says the same thing.
Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(See also the description of the dry bones in the Old Testament.)
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2Pe 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
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If jesus said from NOW ON then he means from,NOW ON.Then that woild mean that Caiaphas would have tk see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God from that moment on.
That would mean,Caiaphas could see Jesus sitting beside God and coming in the clouds before Jesus was even cricified.
Do you believe that?
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Do you agree that the words FROM NOW ON mean FROM NOW ON?
Then did Caiaphus see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds at the time Jesus said it and not days months or years from that moment he said it?
Do you agree from now on means from now on?
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I'm a Presbyterian! My credit card has adhesive on it so it is difficult to take out of my hand, and I am tempted on Sundays to put a photograph of a fifty dollar note in the offering! I have to be careful about opening my wallet in case the moth flies out! Can you see me actually paying MONEY to get good ministry?????
You have proof of that?
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claninja
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Incorrect, as that is not always the case with "from now on". Let's look at 2 examples of "from now on".
If I said "from now on my favorite color is green", does that mean from that second on my favorite color is green? Yes
If I said "from now on I will drink coffee that is hot", does that mean from that second on I am drinking coffee that is hot? No. It means that when I do drink coffee it will be hot.
So the event determines the timing of the "from now on". Jesus was about to suffer, rise again, and enter glory, thus fulfilling the many prophecies written about him. The ones he mentions to Caiaphus, and the surrounding crowd, are from psalm 110 and Daniel 7
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Daniel 7:13-14 and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship
When these would be fulfilled determines the timing of the "from now on".
I do, do you?
Did Jesus say he would?
Matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven
I do, do you?
So again, In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:
So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?
If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?
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Well.Caiaphus died in 36 AD.
And as we know from,the word the dead know nothing
So when are you claiming Caiaphas saw Jesus coming in the clouds,from now on as Jesus said or sometime before he died or sometime after Caiaphas died?
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DavidPT
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I like your analogy, that proved your point IMO. Yet I reason this a bit differently than you do. What was happening to Jesus at the time? He was being judged and sentenced. So when He said But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven, I take that to mean He was indicating that one day in the future the tables will be turned. IOW because He will be sitting on the right hand of God, and because He will physically return at some point, that being what coming on the clouds of heaven representing, they will then be standing in front of Him to be judged and sentenced.
Before you dismiss my theory altogether, do you or do you not agree that someday in the future after Christ has physically returned, those He was talking to at the time, they will be standing in front of Him to be be judged and sentenced because Jesus would be sitting on the right hand of God, thus would have been given the authority to do so?
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Yes, from now on means 'from now on'. But....what Caiaphas saw was Jesus exhibiting His power and glory by fulfilling what He said He would - and taking the corrupt religious system from those that bore no fruit. He also "set things right" by avenging for all the innocent blood that was shed. This wasn't an empty threat that Jesus made - He followed through on it (yet, at the same time, brought salvation). The shekinah glory that the Jews had been waiting for had finally come:
Matthew 23:29-36 ~ “On you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah” (v. 35).
Ezekiel 43 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)
The Divine Glory Returns to the Temple
43 Then he brought me to the gate, the gate facing east. 2 And there, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east; the sound was like the sound of mighty waters; and the earth shone with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision that I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like the vision that I had seen by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5 the spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me out of the temple. 7 He said to me: Mortal, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet, where I will reside among the people of Israel for ever. The house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their whoring, and by the corpses of their kings at their death. 8 When they placed their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they were defiling my holy name by their abominations that they committed; therefore I have consumed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away their idolatry and the corpses of their kings far from me, and I will reside among them for ever.
Ezekiel 43 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)
The Divine Glory Returns to the Temple
43 Then he brought me to the gate, the gate facing east. 2 And there, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east; the sound was like the sound of mighty waters; and the earth shone with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision that I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like the vision that I had seen by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5 the spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me out of the temple. 7 He said to me: Mortal, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet, where I will reside among the people of Israel for ever. The house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their whoring, and by the corpses of their kings at their death. 8 When they placed their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they were defiling my holy name by their abominations that they committed; therefore I have consumed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away their idolatry and the corpses of their kings far from me, and I will reside among them for ever.
1 Corinthians 3:16 ~ Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?
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claninja
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I agree, which was well before this:
matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
So if Caiaphus died in 36 ad, how could he from now on see Jesus sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds, if the coming on clouds is only an end time event?
So, before you can ask a preterist to provide an eye witness of Jesus coming on the clouds, we first have to make sure that your interpretation of "coming on the clouds" is correct.
matthew 26:64 said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven
When Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13-14 by ascending to the Father.
So again, In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:
So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?
If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?
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The trouble I see with that viewpoint is that is completely dismisses what Jesus did on the cross. There's a great deal of importance there (at the cross) that's being overshadowed by a future hope (that, in your belief, is left unfulfilled).
It's counter-intuitive that His brutal death was a victory - but that's what I believe Jesus was saying was the beginning of Him exerting His power, glory, and sovereignty.
Have you seen this - the Greek Orthodox icon of the Victory of Christ?
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
– St Paul the Apostle
At the centre of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ and His Resurrection from the dead. As such, the Icon of the Resurrection is the most celebrated, the most common, the most cherished, the most instructive.
It is all of these things because the Orthodox Icon of the Resurrection is not content with simply showing us the Risen Christ, or the empty tomb; the Victory shown in the Icon of the Resurrection is complete.
Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
-Paschal (Easter) Hymn
Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades, or Hell. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.
In the Icon, Jesus Christ stands victoriously in the centre. Robed in Heavenly white, He is surrounded by a mandorla of star-studded light, representing the Glory of God. Christ is shown dramatically pulling Adam, the first man, from the tomb. Eve is to Christ’s left, hands held out in supplication, also waiting for Jesus to act. This humble surrender to Jesus is all Adam and Eve need to do, and all they are able to do. Christ does the rest, which is why He is pulling Adam from the tomb by the wrist, and not the hand.
Surrounding the victorious Christ are John the Baptist and the Old Testament Righteous(Abel is shown as the young shepherd-boy). Those who predeceased Christ’s crucifixion descended to Hades, where they patiently waited the coming of their Messiah. Now they are freed from this underworld, and mingle freely with Christ and His angels. ~ The Resurrection | Icon of Victory
Some key features:
- Christ’s cape/robe is flowing upward, this symbolizes his radical descent into Hades to save those who have died in the flesh.
- The golden bars by his feet are the gates of Hades, which he has broken and torn apart. There are keys floating in the abyss below, which symbolizes that he has entered and conquered both death and Hades.
- You may also note the skeletal figure who is chained up: that is Death and/or Satan. He has been bound and killed by Christ, which is why all throughout Pascha we sing “Christ has trampled down death by death.” The icon depicts Hebrews 2:14, “that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil.” The power of the devil and death have been destroyed through the life-giving death of our Savior.
- The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment.
- To the left, we see three characters: David and Solomon, two of his ancestors according to his fleshly nature. We also see, closest to him, John the Baptizer, who was his forerunner in both life and death.
- The figures on the right vary from icon to icon, but usually represent Old Testament prophets and saints such as Moses, Able as a shepherd, and the three youths who were thrown into the fiery furnace (Daniel 3).
- The blue shape around Christ is called the Mandorla (which is Italian for almond, which describes its shape). The Mandorla is the uncreated, eternal light of Christ. In the writings of the Eastern Orthodox mystics, God is often prayerfully experienced as light. This is not simply a pretty bright light. It is the same light which filled the apostles with wonder when they witnessed His Transfiguration. It is the light which Christ Himself described as the power of the Kingdom of God (Mark 9:1 Matt 16:28 Luke 9:27). It is the light that filled the once perpetual darkness of Hades when Christ descended and brought life into the realm of death. It is also the light that is seen when one purifies their heart and mind (Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.)
- The Mandorla becomes progressively darker as it moves toward its center, which is Christ. If God is represented by light, the Mandorla may seem confusing. However, those who seek God will find that the more they know Him, the less they comprehend Him. To know God, to experience Him, is to walk in the darkness of His light, to enter into the mystery of His presence.
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That is a quote from a Jewish site I quoted
So I suggest you take it up with them.
It was not presented to us in the form of a quote...
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What Christ did on the cross fulfills the prophecy first made in Genesis 3:15.
What He did will also eventually completely reverse the fall of Adam.
There will be no more death.
Do you think Christ will never return from heaven?
.
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I'm in agreement with the Orthodox church - that He "trampled down death" and defeated death (already). Certainly there is still sin and death in this world - but as He wasn't bound by physical death, neither are we.
From the meaning of the icon of the Victory of Christ:
- The golden bars by his feet are the gates of Hades, which he has broken and torn apart. There are keys floating in the abyss below, which symbolizes that he has entered and conquered both death and Hades.
- You may also note the skeletal figure who is chained up: that is Death and/or Satan. He has been bound and killed by Christ, which is why all throughout Pascha we sing “Christ has trampled down death by death.” The icon depicts Hebrews 2:14, “that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil.” The power of the devil and death have been destroyed through the life-giving death of our Savior.
- The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment.
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