Trees falling in the forest

com7fy8 said:

Usually, it seems to me, people don't want to admit that God is in all-control . . . even of humans; because ones don't want it to be true that they themselves are not really in control.

But you say, "Does God have to" > if you feel loaded down with too many things to take care of, keeping track of every single tree in a forest might seem too much to handle. Therefore, you might feel it could be too much for God to bother with?

But God is caring; whatever He does is caring. You, I think, know how while you are doing caring things, it is not a burden, or not as much. God, I think, is a micro-Carer . . . like a micro-manager, except He is caring for every electron flying around a nucleus . . . or through it. And He is fast enough to make it happen and keep track of it all.

The fact that physical things keep on functioning the way they do, in spite of all the evil, is a direct demonstration which can help us see how stable God is, even while at His high level of function to maintain the universe, and how He is quite capable of taking care of us.

I understand that there is a reason why people of physics and medical science keep finding out that there is more to try to find out > because God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and these ways are now working in all His creation.

But even though we can't figure out His ways, these ways are living in His love; as much as we submit to living in God's love, we can benefit from these ways.

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*edited for better clarity (or tried to)*

God is definitely in control.

Clearly.

But....we are discussing how He controls things.

And it's speculation.

Perhaps less speculative (at least in my view) is when it's about things that don't affect us, like (ok, I'll give you a less unsure example) -- what controls the moons orbiting Pluto.

What controls the moons orbiting Pluto is said to be the laws of gravity (Newton's are a good approximation, Einstein's are more exact).

But...see, gravity, existing, was created by the Lord God, maker of heaven and Earth.

See? It's His gravity, which He created. See? So, He's definitely in control, either way -- if you think His gravity controls those moons, or if you think gravity is a science delusion. Either way, He is in control. We are only discussing merely the how.

But it involves speculation (more so) when it's stuff nearby to us, like cancer or accidents.

Especially when it is things that directly affect us, then we are talking more speculation. Does God specifically intervene to cause cancer? ( my guess is no, but He can definitely intervene if we pray about it)

FireDragon76 said:

On the other hand, people may be attracted to this "Omni-God" because they want to be absolved of responsibility by denying their own agency.

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good point

So, if I understand that God is in all-control, I need to still know I am accountable to Him, about what I do. I do have responsibility, though I believe God has control.

The Bible is very clear that even though God is in all-control . . . which I believe, anyway, and I acknowledge you possibly do not > still, the Bible says we will reap what we sow.

And what you reap is a lot more than those little seeds you have sown.

Galatians 6:7-8

FireDragon76 said:

Including childhood cancer and tsunamis?

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I think my posts can very definitely help that question. Unless I've written even less clearly than usual.

com7fy8 said:

good point

So, if I understand that God is in all-control, I need to still know I am accountable to Him, about what I do. I do have responsibility, though I believe God has control.

The Bible is very clear that even though God is in all-control . . . which I believe, anyway, and I acknowledge you possibly do not > still, the Bible says we will reap what we sow.

And what you reap is a lot more than those little seeds you have sown.

Galatians 6:7-8

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You know, it would be very interesting (please consider this emphasized) to look at any verse about God being in control in full context to get precisely what is meant by the full meaning of the verse as completed by the verses nearby (or more distant) it relies on for it's full meaning. I feel sure God is in control, but I don't expect He causes cancer. And at the moment, those fit together without any trouble for me, since I think cancer is caused by nature, and we are in mortal bodies by His intent we be in mortal bodies. And I have total belief, full certainty, in His promises, that we will live again after this body is returned to 'dust'.

Halbhh said:

Does God cause cancer?

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I understand that every thing is in God's management. He does not necessarily actually cause evil, but He is in control of which way evil is allowed to go. So, it is all in His control, but not caused by Him.

But on a personal level, I simply pray and trust God with what becomes of me. I don't try to dictate what can happen or not happen to me. And it is important not to let evil impress me and get the better of me.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

Also, even if evil comes our way > while we are trusting the LORD, He has things working for us, somehow better than if we were not believers. It is better to go through things with Jesus, than without Jesus.

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

From this, I see how God is doing some kind of good to every person, but the benefit is most of all to "those who believe", because we keep trusting and obeying Him . . . better and better submitting to how He rules us in His peace keeping our hearts and minds while personally enlightening us and guiding us . . . in this peace > Colossians 3:15.

So, seek first God's kingdom, "and all these things shall be added to you." (in Matthew 6:33) If we unconditionally seek God for Himself, we are guaranteed all the love and blessings and healing that He has for us, whatever He knows He means by this. And He has the control to make sure this happens!

And He is committed to making your prayer work, if He commands us to pray for people. So, in case you know someone dear to you who has cancer > your prayer helps, somehow.

How could we possibly know unless God Himself tells us? All that can be known can only be known by the revealed, not the hidden and inscrutable, will of God. And we find the revealed will of God through where He has made Himself known, through Christ, through His word, through His Sacraments. Which is why we can know, for example, that it is the will of God that all be saved and none should perish.

The whole problem here is that trying to divine the inscrutable will of God by beginning with abstract philosophical concepts is that it is mere theology of glory. Here is how Luther speaks of such vanity,

"That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the »invisible« things of God as though they were clearly »perceptible in those things which have actually happened« (Rom. 1:20; cf. 1 Cor 1:21-25).

This is apparent in the example of those who were »theologians« and still were called »fools« by the Apostle in Rom. 1:22. Furthermore, the invisible things of God are virtue, godliness, wisdom, justice, goodness, and so forth. The recognition of all these things does not make one worthy or wise." - Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, Thesis 19

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 said:

Including childhood cancer and tsunamis?

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Evil does not change what is true about God. Satan has evil things which are a design strategy to trick us into thinking God is not in control. Be careful what you allow to control your attention and your thinking about God, please.

Now > if it were true that God were not in control > who is the problem, then? An amount of cancer is because of how humans have not done things right. A child might have been exposed to second-hand smoke, or chemicals in the drinking water, or the mother while pregnant could have been doing drugs or nicotine or alcohol abuse . . . maybe. There might be pure cases of childhood cancer, which are not the scientifically known fault of human stuff, but a lot is what could have been prevented according to scientific ideas about things. And, by the way, sin is in the mix; ones understand how sin has possibly effected humans, beyond what is scientifically known.

So, if God were not in control, then how come humans in so much control have not done what is evidently needed????? I don't think there was evolution which produced us humans who have done things the way we do > you don't see our sort of craziness in animal and plant nature. Sin is the problem. And only Jesus is our way out. Boasting human control is not what we need.

If humans have such control, why do they keep living where there can be tsunami disasters? They could move inland, among other things. Why don't trailer park people have little holes dug under their floors so they can drop in at the moment they get an alarm or hear a tornado coming?

if humans really are in control

You might hear of ones who jumped in a bath tub. They could think of that, but how is it that so many people have not thought of preparing by having at least a hole under their trailers or houses . . . with a trap door, at least, so that in an instant they could just drop in?

Well, they do have some sort of control, though they don't use it for things like that, to do what could help them. They use their control to smoke, and then try to get a cure for cancer, among other things.

Well, God is in control, but there are things He does not do. But He is doing us a lot more good, than we have been doing. If it were not for God overruling evil, it would have done a lot more. If free will reigned . . . how could things be??

"God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" (in James 4:6, in 1 Peter 5:5).

Halbhh said:

I feel sure God is in control, but I don't expect He causes cancer.

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As I have offered, I think there is a difference between causing and being in control of which way things can go. Jesus told Satan what Satan had permission to do to Job, for one example. So, even if sin has something to do with cancer, still it is under God's rulership of what sin can cause or not.

But, from your point of view . . . perhaps > ones are saying that in our bodies, all the time we have some number of cancers, but our immune system keeps canceling them out. And ones seem to be saying that if we let ourselves give in to stress, the stress can compromise our natural immunity so then is when a cancer can take over.

So, at a natural level, there could be how we can control cancer > prevention being so better than trying to cure.

But I personally believe that God has the overall management of what succeeds in working and what doesn't. And if someone is not living for God, the person's sin can make the person more able to give in to stress so then he or she is more capable of getting cancer.

And I do not assume I have been living right so I don't get it; God is our Judge. Also, like I offered, I don't try to dictate what I might be allowed to get. But seek God for Himself, and keep doing this, no matter what. And care about others as though it is me. Care about others just as much as I care about me

Halbhh said:

You know, it would be very interesting (please consider this emphasized) to look at any verse about God being in control in full context to get precisely what is meant by the full meaning of the verse as completed by the verses nearby (or more distant) it relies on for it's full meaning.

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Ok, so let's take Romans 9:21 which says, I understand, that God is our Potter who makes one person a vessel "for honor" and another "for dishonor". Now, my context which I have been feeding on, in this, is what says God chooses what He does with every person. Then I consider how a potter is in full contact with the clay and in full control of what is done with the clay, and then judges what the potter has made with the clay. So there is such personal contact with every lump of clay, plus total control, and even judging.

But someone else will see a different context, including how they already have dictated how humans have their own autonomous control . . . though the Bible does not say many things which directly could be taken to mean this. Still, ones bring this context. And ones have decided the context is with how in earlier scripture God says He is the Potter who has been managing the nation of Israel; and so they claim this passage is not for us as individuals, but for the whole nation of Israel.

So, we can create more than one overall context, for a given scripture.

And what we want to believe can be our context. And ones have loaded the dice, by saying if God has control, then He must be some horrible dictator. But God is good and kind and loving; His being in control is better than us being in control. If we were fully in control, at certain times in our lives . . . where might we be now? . . . how might things be now??

God can use evil people's intentions for good. I think the time in Egypt is a great example for this.

[Gen 50:19-20 ESV] But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

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God also creates evil (hebrew "ra"). He did create the ancient serpent Satan who "was a murderer from the beginning" for a reason.

[Isa 45:7 ESV] I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

[Isa 54:16 ESV] Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

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How else can we know good and evil and truly understand the depths of God's goodness unless we went through the trials he has set before us? It may sound absolutely terrible to some but I don't think God does these things for his amusement, but for our good. I think he suffers whenever one of us suffers (because he loves us) and he did personally come down to taste our sufferings himself. Those times probably aren't his favorite part of creating mankind in his image. Could Adam and Eve understand "thirsty" or "starving" or "lonely" unless they experienced it?

RaymondG said:

Nothing happens outside of God. And All things work together for the good to them that love the Lord.

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DamianWarS said:

tell that to the tree

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Why?
Are trees among those who love the Lord?

I feel that God's will is not the right way to regard the everyday occurrences that happen to us.

It isn't the right connotation or rather, our limited human understanding of cause / effect can not properly understand the whats, whys, and hows of the universe.

A tree destroys your house, you ask "Why me" but then 10 years later, something good happens to you (you find love and get married) however it would not have happened to you if the tree had not destroyed your house... that is, the tree set events in motion that eventually led to you finding your wife...

Or maybe not you, but someone else. Your life is changed, you do an action you would not have done, that action enables someone else's life to move in a significant direction that otherwise would not have done so...

In any event, I feel we should not look at things as "God's will". Everything is God's will which is logically the same as nothing being God's will. In effect, this makes the universe random or rather, the net effect is that the universe is random.

IN a way that makes sense. A random universe would be the best way to enable "free will" and to judge people accordingly.

Imagine if only good things happen to people who act good and bad things happen to people that act bad, under such a universe you'd never know the true character and/or soul of someone. You could "act" good solely out of self preservation knowing that if you "act" bad then bad things will happen to you. So you act good when in reality you are evil to the core...

ok now I'm rambling so I'll just stop here

com7fy8 said:

Ok, so let's take Romans 9:21 which says, I understand, that God is our Potter who makes one person a vessel "for honor" and another "for dishonor". Now, my context which I have been feeding on, in this, is what says God chooses what He does with every person. Then I consider how a potter is in full contact with the clay and in full control of what is done with the clay, and then judges what the potter has made with the clay. So there is such personal contact with every lump of clay, plus total control, and even judging.

But someone else will see a different context, including how they already have dictated how humans have their own autonomous control . . . though the Bible does not say many things which directly could be taken to mean this. Still, ones bring this context. And ones have decided the context is with how in earlier scripture God says He is the Potter who has been managing the nation of Israel; and so they claim this passage is not for us as individuals, but for the whole nation of Israel.

So, we can create more than one overall context, for a given scripture.

And what we want to believe can be our context. And ones have loaded the dice, by saying if God has control, then He must be some horrible dictator. But God is good and kind and loving; His being in control is better than us being in control. If we were fully in control, at certain times in our lives . . . where might we be now? . . . how might things be now??

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Well, ok, we agree about many things already (as you know) but can't expect to understand all things the same (and no 2 do so far as I have found, once you get down into details; example: God is in control we agree on, but our details will differ, of course). Maybe instead of saying we won't understand everything just the same...I should say we won't be able to ferret out a way to perfectly communicate, and won't be able to undo the Tower of Babel perfectly, that we may agree on things even we don't think we do, and won't be able to figure that out. I like and agree with your final paragraph though. He does a much better job with us believers than we could do on our own!! (It not important to address except when it trips up a seeker, and blocks them, but 'double predestination' is a doctrine we should eschew) (I wonder though if Sproul could help. let's see: ah, here's his take: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul not endorsing, just finding in order to look at... Ok, after a quick look, what makes sense about election to me is that it's open to all, and we can enter it, but some have not yet, and many won't, but that was not set in stone for them, but truly left on some soul level as a choice in some way for them, so the 'preterition' as being preset, predetermined is really is a wrong, wrong, notion (see I said so twice))

HTacianas said:

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does the tree fall apart from the will of God?

If a tree falls on your house and destroys it, does the tree fall apart from the will of God?

Is it God's will that your house is destroyed?

"All things are best ascribed to God" - saying of the ancient Essenes

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Yes, Yes, Yes...

The tree falling in the forest is of no consequence to anything.
The tree falling on your house will set in motion a number of things.. People you will meet in dealing with insurance and repair... people who hear about it..People who respond in charity and prayer to your situation.. the list is relatively endless.

All these things will bring into play events that are in God's will and plan.

First and foremost is your actions and reactions with all of the intermingled people, events, stresses and responses.....

You may never know the outcome. However, all things happen for the glory of God.

His student said:

Why?
Are trees among those who love the Lord?

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Great question. I thought of 2 things: some ask what about dogs in 'heaven' (and they may instead mean the 'new Earth' though they don't often know about it), and then 2nd, that all mortal bodies (trees, dogs, people) will return to dust here, but we are to live again, so it's like "sleep" or perhaps even like going through a door, because when you sleep you don't have awareness of time passing, so it's like going from consciousness to a new consciousness.

All of these questions/aspects don't make sense except that we consider the reality of the afterlife.

See, if my friend dies from cause A, and I wonder why, don't I know that the body in question was "dust" and "to dust you shall return", or did I forget?

DamianWarS said:

tell that to the tree

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I think the trees would enjoy dying for the well being of the plants and forest and animals around them. Not so sure about have they feel about being cut down for paper, though.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Though I believe this with my whole heart, I have to admit that it is hard to find the good in stressful situations. Sometimes it is years before you can see the good, especially when it is concerning things like death or sickness, or divorce.

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To find good, we must assume ourselves to be surrounded by bad. Jesus said to take no thought for the evils of tomorrow....or for your life. He will keep in perfect peace them whose mind is stay on Him. "then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

com7fy8 said:

Possibly, the tree has no say in the matter so the tree has no need to be told anything, but God has all the say

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The tree know that there is no death....so they dont think about it....and cant fear it. They need not be told anything.

FireDragon76 said:

Including childhood cancer and tsunamis?

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Our thoughts are not Gods thoughts. But let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Once this takes place there will be few things that you will view as negative....and no thing that you cannot see God in.

In the same way that gravity is a law of nature so is cause and effect. It seems to me that God controls thru those natural laws such as ‘you are what you eat’ so that carcinogenic foods cause cancer etc. So to overcome those natural laws takes the form of miracles that is another form of God in control. Falling off a cliff and landing in a deep haystack could be one example. Or overcoming a terminal illness that was basically caused and effected by bad eating habits. Falling off the cliff and dying from dis-ease is according to the laws of nature but God can still work thru miracles. Testing Him on miracles does not always have the desired results from our standpoint but it stands to reason that the results are for the good from God’s point of view.

HTacianas said:

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does the tree fall apart from the will of God?

If a tree falls on your house and destroys it, does the tree fall apart from the will of God?

Is it God's will that your house is destroyed?

"All things are best ascribed to God" - saying of the ancient Essenes

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Well. For one your analogies are very different.

Sure the tree in forest falls due to the will of God. That tree is there growing not bothering anybody. One day it will fall over. It's just physics. An appointed day the tree will fall.

A tree hitting a house is a different matter. That homeowner should have paid attention to his or her house to know what tree is in danger of hitting the house when it falls and have that tree cut down.

When that tree falls and destroys the house....can't blame God. Sure it's God's will the tree fell at a particular time. But it's entirely the homeowners fault if that tree destroys their house. Don't blame God for what the homeowner's responsibility was in cutting that tree down.

christine40 said:

neighbor's tree fell on our house (twice)
both times labelled "act of God" by insurance company
one time it was remnants of a hurricane that came through

even though it was neighbor's trees, OUR insurance paid since trees landed on our house
very, very stressful getting all repairs done

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And did your insurance go up because of the claims?