Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

T. Taylor · Mar 12, 2019

T. Taylor said:
From the apocryplal writings and qumran scrolls:

58. He hath shut the sea in the midst of the waters, and with his word hath he hanged the earth upon the waters. 59. He spreadeth out the heavens like a vault; upon the waters hath he founded it.

2 Esdras, 16

4 'O you that have made the earth, hear me, that have fixed the firmament by the word, and have made firm the height of the heaven by the spirit…

2 Baruch, 21

3 But also the heavens at that time were shaken from their place…

2 Baruch, 59

3. That hast raised up the heaven and founded the earth upon the waters, That hast fixed the great stones upon the abyss of water…

Joseph & Aseneth, 12

And these shall serve to lay the foundations of the heaven, And to strengthen the earth, And to renew all the luminaries which are in the firmament.

Jubilees, 19:25

And He thundered at them in [His] power, and all the foundations of the earth [tr]embled, [and the wa]ters burst forth from the abysses. All the windows of heaven opened, and all the abyss[es] overflowed [with] mighty waters. And the windows of heaven [emptied out] rain and He destroyed them by the Flood...

4Q370 (4Q185)

The foundations of the firmament scream at your judgement...

4Q418

From the Book of Enoch:

"1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation 2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four 3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven. 4 I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and 5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths 6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones, 7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone. 8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the 9,10 throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards 12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'"
Book of Enoch, Chapter 18

"1 And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven rests, and the portals of the heaven open. 2And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and 3 I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their 4 times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies."
Book of Enoch Chapter 33

11 And the other Angel spoke to me, the one who went with me and showed me what is secret; what is first and last in Heaven, in the heights, and under the dry ground, in the depths, and at the Ends of Heaven, and at the Foundations of Heaven, and in the Storehouses of the Winds.
Book of Enoch Chapter 60

17 And through it the earth was founded upon the water, and from the hidden recesses of the mountains come beautiful waters, from the creation of the world and for ever. 18 And through that oath the sea was created, and as its foundation, for the time of anger, he placed for it the sand, and it does not go beyond it, from the creation of the world and for ever. 19 And through that oath the deeps were made firm, and they stand and do not move from their place, from the creation of the world and for ever.20 And through that oath the Sun and the Moon complete their course and do not transgress their command, from the creation of the world and for ever. 21 And through that oath the stars complete their course, and he calls their names, and they answer him, from the creation of the world and for ever.
Book of Enoch Chapter 69

[emphasis added by me]

From Ante Nicene Fathers:

…For man, being below, begins to build from the earth, and cannot in order make the roof, unless he has first laid the foundation… Wherefore, also, the prophet mentioned that the creation of the heavens first of all took place, as a kind of roof, saying: “At the first God created the heavens”—that is, that by means of the “first” principle the heavens were made, as we have already shown. And by “earth” he means the ground and foundation, as by “the deep” he means the multitude of waters… The heaven, therefore, being like a dome-shaped covering, comprehended matter which was like a clod. And so another prophet, Isaiah by name, spoke in these words: “It is God who made the heavens as a vault, and stretched them as a tent to dwell in.” The command, then, of God, that is, His Word, shining as a lamp in an enclosed chamber, lit up all that was under heaven, when He had made light apart from the world
THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS, CHAPTER XIII, REMARKS ON THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, 155

…to Him is for us to know who stretched out and vaulted the heavens, and fixed the earth in its place like a centre, who gathered the water into seas and divided the light from the darkness, who adorned the sky with stars and made the earth to bring forth seed of every kind, who made animals and fashioned man.
A PLEA FOR THE CHRISTIANS By Athenagoras the Athenian, CHAPTER XIII

The first and only (one God), both Creator and Lord of all, had nothing coeval with Himself; not infinite chaos, nor measureless water, nor solid earth, nor dense air, not warm fire, nor refined spirit, nor the azure canopy of the stupendous firmament.
Hippolytus, The Refutation of All Heresies, Book X, Chapter XXVIII, p. 271

... the absolutely perfect Founder of all things, who has suspended the heavens in lofty sublimity, has established the earth with its lower mass, ... For in the solid vault of heaven He has both awakened the light-bringing Sunrisings; He has filled up the white globe of the moon in its monthly waxings as a solace for the night;... and He has willed all these things in their legitimate tracks to circle the entire compass of the world, so as to cause days, months, years, signs, and seasons, and benefits of other kinds for the human race.
…
Novatian, A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter I, p. 1072

Hence it is that He also sitteth above the Cherubim; that is, He presides over the variety of His works, the living creatures which hold the control over the rest being subjected to His throne: a crystal covering being thrown over all things; that is, the heaven covering all things, which at the command of God had been consolidated into a firmament from the fluent material of the waters, that the strong hardness that divides the midst of the waters that covered the earth before, might sustain as if on its back the weight of the superincumbent water, its strength being established by the frost. And, moreover, wheels lie below—that is to say, the seasons—whereby all the members of the world are always being rolled onwards;
Novatian, A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter VIII, p. 1083

The sun, with its ceaseless courses and unequal intervals, completes its annual circles, and either at his rising draws forth the day for labour, or at his setting brings on the night for repose; and at one time by his departure farther towards the south, at another time by his approach nearer towards the north, he causes the vicissitudes of winter and summer, so that both by the moistures and frosts of winter the earth becomes enriched for fruitfulness, and by the heats of summer either the produce of grass is hardened by maturity, or that which is in moist places, being seethed and heated, becomes ripened. ...
LACTANTIUS, A TREATISE ON THE ANGER OF GOD, CHAP. XIII, p. 412

Thou art blessed, O Lord, the King of ages, who by Christ hast made the whole world, and by Him in the beginning didst reduce into order the disordered parts; who dividedst the waters from the waters by a firmament, and didst put into them a spirit of life; who didst fix the earth, and stretch out the heaven, and didst dispose every creature by an accurate constitution. For by Thy power, O Lord, the world is beautified, the heaven is fixed as an arch over us, and is rendered illustrious with stars for our comfort in the darkness. The light also and the sun were begotten for days and the production of fruit, and the moon for the change of seasons, by its increase and diminutions; and one was called Night, and the other Day. And the firmament was exhibited in the midst of the abyss, and Thou commandedst the waters to be gathered together, and the dry land to appear.
LACTANTIUS, CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, BOOK VII, XXXIV, p. 706

For Thou art He who didst frame the heaven as an arch, and “stretch it out like the covering of a tent,” and didst found the earth upon nothing by Thy mere will; who didst fix the firmament, and prepare the night and the day;
LACTANTIUS, CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, BOOK VIII, XII, p. 729

“In the beginning, when God had made the heaven and the earth, as one house, the shadow which was cast by the mundane bodies involved in darkness those things which were enclosed in it. ... And now the water which was within the world, in the middle space of that first heaven and earth, congealed as if with frost, and solid as crystal, is distended, and the middle spaces of the heaven and earth are separated as by a firmament of this sort; and that firmament the Creator called heaven, so called by the name of that previously made: and so He divided into two portions that fabric of the universe, although it was but one house. The reason of the division was this, that the upper portion might afford a dwelling-place to angels, and the lower to men. ...
Recognitions of Clement, Book I, Chapter XXVII, p. 125

For as those who build circular domes, unless they bind the fastening of the central top, the whole falls at once; so also the circle of the world, which we see to be brought together in so graceful a form...
Recognitions of Clement, Book VIII, Chapter XVIII, p. 288

When the old man had said this, I Clement began to speak as follows: “God by His Son created the world as a double house, separated by the interposition of this firmament, which is called heaven; and appointed angelic powers to dwell in the higher, and a multitude of men to be born in this visible world…
Recognitions of Clement, Book IX, Chapter III, p. 312

[emphasis added by me]

T. Taylor · Mar 12, 2019

T. Taylor said:
From Ante Nicene Fathers:

…For man, being below, begins to build from the earth, and cannot in order make the roof, unless he has first laid the foundation… Wherefore, also, the prophet mentioned that the creation of the heavens first of all took place, as a kind of roof, saying: “At the first God created the heavens”—that is, that by means of the “first” principle the heavens were made, as we have already shown. And by “earth” he means the ground and foundation, as by “the deep” he means the multitude of waters… The heaven, therefore, being like a dome-shaped covering, comprehended matter which was like a clod. And so another prophet, Isaiah by name, spoke in these words: “It is God who made the heavens as a vault, and stretched them as a tent to dwell in.” The command, then, of God, that is, His Word, shining as a lamp in an enclosed chamber, lit up all that was under heaven, when He had made light apart from the world
THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS, CHAPTER XIII, REMARKS ON THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, 155

…to Him is for us to know who stretched out and vaulted the heavens, and fixed the earth in its place like a centre, who gathered the water into seas and divided the light from the darkness, who adorned the sky with stars and made the earth to bring forth seed of every kind, who made animals and fashioned man.
A PLEA FOR THE CHRISTIANS By Athenagoras the Athenian, CHAPTER XIII

The first and only (one God), both Creator and Lord of all, had nothing coeval with Himself; not infinite chaos, nor measureless water, nor solid earth, nor dense air, not warm fire, nor refined spirit, nor the azure canopy of the stupendous firmament.
Hippolytus, The Refutation of All Heresies, Book X, Chapter XXVIII, p. 271

... the absolutely perfect Founder of all things, who has suspended the heavens in lofty sublimity, has established the earth with its lower mass, ... For in the solid vault of heaven He has both awakened the light-bringing Sunrisings; He has filled up the white globe of the moon in its monthly waxings as a solace for the night;... and He has willed all these things in their legitimate tracks to circle the entire compass of the world, so as to cause days, months, years, signs, and seasons, and benefits of other kinds for the human race.
…
Novatian, A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter I, p. 1072

Hence it is that He also sitteth above the Cherubim; that is, He presides over the variety of His works, the living creatures which hold the control over the rest being subjected to His throne: a crystal covering being thrown over all things; that is, the heaven covering all things, which at the command of God had been consolidated into a firmament from the fluent material of the waters, that the strong hardness that divides the midst of the waters that covered the earth before, might sustain as if on its back the weight of the superincumbent water, its strength being established by the frost. And, moreover, wheels lie below—that is to say, the seasons—whereby all the members of the world are always being rolled onwards;
Novatian, A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter VIII, p. 1083

The sun, with its ceaseless courses and unequal intervals, completes its annual circles, and either at his rising draws forth the day for labour, or at his setting brings on the night for repose; and at one time by his departure farther towards the south, at another time by his approach nearer towards the north, he causes the vicissitudes of winter and summer, so that both by the moistures and frosts of winter the earth becomes enriched for fruitfulness, and by the heats of summer either the produce of grass is hardened by maturity, or that which is in moist places, being seethed and heated, becomes ripened. ...
LACTANTIUS, A TREATISE ON THE ANGER OF GOD, CHAP. XIII, p. 412

Thou art blessed, O Lord, the King of ages, who by Christ hast made the whole world, and by Him in the beginning didst reduce into order the disordered parts; who dividedst the waters from the waters by a firmament, and didst put into them a spirit of life; who didst fix the earth, and stretch out the heaven, and didst dispose every creature by an accurate constitution. For by Thy power, O Lord, the world is beautified, the heaven is fixed as an arch over us, and is rendered illustrious with stars for our comfort in the darkness. The light also and the sun were begotten for days and the production of fruit, and the moon for the change of seasons, by its increase and diminutions; and one was called Night, and the other Day. And the firmament was exhibited in the midst of the abyss, and Thou commandedst the waters to be gathered together, and the dry land to appear.
LACTANTIUS, CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, BOOK VII, XXXIV, p. 706

For Thou art He who didst frame the heaven as an arch, and “stretch it out like the covering of a tent,” and didst found the earth upon nothing by Thy mere will; who didst fix the firmament, and prepare the night and the day;
LACTANTIUS, CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, BOOK VIII, XII, p. 729

“In the beginning, when God had made the heaven and the earth, as one house, the shadow which was cast by the mundane bodies involved in darkness those things which were enclosed in it. ... And now the water which was within the world, in the middle space of that first heaven and earth, congealed as if with frost, and solid as crystal, is distended, and the middle spaces of the heaven and earth are separated as by a firmament of this sort; and that firmament the Creator called heaven, so called by the name of that previously made: and so He divided into two portions that fabric of the universe, although it was but one house. The reason of the division was this, that the upper portion might afford a dwelling-place to angels, and the lower to men. ...
Recognitions of Clement, Book I, Chapter XXVII, p. 125

For as those who build circular domes, unless they bind the fastening of the central top, the whole falls at once; so also the circle of the world, which we see to be brought together in so graceful a form...
Recognitions of Clement, Book VIII, Chapter XVIII, p. 288

When the old man had said this, I Clement began to speak as follows: “God by His Son created the world as a double house, separated by the interposition of this firmament, which is called heaven; and appointed angelic powers to dwell in the higher, and a multitude of men to be born in this visible world…
Recognitions of Clement, Book IX, Chapter III, p. 312

[emphasis added by me]

CHAP. XXIV.—OF THE ANTIPODES, THE HEAVEN, AND THE STARS.

How is it with those who imagine that there are antipodes opposite to our footsteps? Do they say anything to the purpose? Or is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads? or that the things which with us are in a recumbent position, with them hang in an inverted direction? that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards to the earth? And does any one wonder that hanging gardens are mentioned among the seven wonders of the world, when philosophers make hanging fields, and seas, and cities, and mountains? The origin of this error must also be set forth by us. For they are always deceived in the same manner. For when they have assumed anything false in the commencement of their investigations, led by the resemblance of the truth, they necessarily fall into those things which are its consequences. Thus they fall into many ridiculous things; because those things which are in agreement with false things, must themselves be false. But since they placed confidence in the first, they do not consider the character of those things which follow, but defend them in every way; whereas they ought to judge from those which follow, whether the first are true or false. What course of argument, therefore, led them to the idea of the antipodes? They saw the courses of the stars travelling towards the west; they saw that the sun and the moon always set towards the same quarter, and rise from the same. But since they did not perceive what contrivance regulated their courses, nor how they returned from the west to the east, but supposed that the heaven itself sloped downwards in every direction, which appearance it must present on account of its immense breadth, they thought that the world is round like a ball, and they fancied that the heaven revolves in accordance with the motion of the heavenly bodies; and thus that the stars and sun, when they have set, by the very rapidity of the motion of the world are borne back to the east. Therefore they both constructed brazen orbs, as though after the figure of the world, and engraved upon them certain monstrous images, which they said were constellations. It followed, therefore, from this rotundity of the heaven, that the earth was enclosed in the midst of its curved surface. But if this were so, the earth also itself must be like a globe; for that could not possibly be anything but round, which was held enclosed by that which was round. But if the earth also were round, it must necessarily happen that it should present the same appearance to all parts of the heaven; that is, that it should raise aloft mountains, extend plains, and have level seas. And if this were so, that last consequence also followed, that there would be no part of the earth uninhabited by men and the other animals. Thus the rotundity of the earth leads, in addition, to the invention of those suspended antipodes. But if you inquire from those who defend these marvellous fictions, why all things do not fall into that lower part of the heaven, they reply that such is the nature of things, that heavy bodies are borne to the middle, and that they are all joined together towards the middle, as we see spokes in a wheel; but that the bodies which are light, as mist, smoke, and fire, are borne away from the middle, so as to seek the heaven. I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another; but that I sometimes imagine that they either discuss philosophy for the sake of a jest, or purposely and knowingly undertake to defend falsehoods, as if to exercise or display their talents on false subjects. But I should be able to prove by many arguments that it is impossible for the heaven to be lower than the earth, were is not that this book must now be concluded, and that some things still remain, which are more necessary for the present work. And since it is not the work of a single book to run over the errors of each individually, let it be sufficient to have enumerated a few, from which the nature of the others may be understood.
LACTANTIUS, THE DIVINE INSTITUTES, BOOK III, OF THE FALSE WISDOM OF PHILOSOPHERS, p. 138

CHAP. XXXIX.—OF VARIOUS PHILOSOPHERS, AND OF THE ANTIPODES.
These things, truly, are of small importance, but they arise from the same falsehood. Xenophanes said that the orb of the moon is eighteen times larger than this earth of ours; and that within its compass is contained another earth, which is inhabited by men and animals of every kind. About the antipodes also one can neither hear nor speak without laughter. It is asserted as something serious, that we should believe that there are men who have their feet opposite to ours. The ravings of Anaxagoras are more tolerable, who said that snow was black. And not only the sayings, but the deeds, of some are ridiculous. Democritus neglected his land which was left to him by his father, and suffered it to become a public pasture. Diogenes with his company of dogs, who professes that great and perfect virtue in the contempt of all things, preferred to beg for his support, rather than to seek it by honest labour, or to have any property. Undoubtedly the life of a wise man ought to be to others an example of living. If all should imitate the wisdom of these, how will states exist? But perhaps the same Cynics were able to afford an example of modesty, who lived with their wives in public. I know not how they could defend virtue, who took away modesty.
LACTANTIUS, THE DIVINE INSTITUTES, BOOK III, OF THE FALSE WISDOM OF PHILOSOPHERS, p. 362

That is it for now.

lasthero · Mar 12, 2019

Jokes aside, watching two people argue over what the same words mean is fascinating.

Yekcidmij · Mar 12, 2019

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Looks like a semi horn torus (or maybe a cutaway of a horn torus). Do you think the earth is shaped like a semi horn torus? I've never met a semi-horn-toruser before...

I mean, it looks like if you're standing in say, the middle of the US and look up toward the zenith at a low angle (maybe 20 degrees from the horizon?) you should see Argentina in the sky.

Speedwell · Mar 12, 2019

lasthero said:
Jokes aside, watching two people argue over what the same words mean is fascinating.

What's really bizarre is that anyone thinks its an essential point of Christian doctrine.

T. Taylor · Mar 12, 2019

Speedwell said:
What's really bizarre is that anyone thinks its an essential point of Christian doctrine.

It is not an essential point of Christian doctrine indeed but it belongs to the foundations of faith.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Mar 12, 2019

Speedwell said:
What's really bizarre is that anyone thinks its an essential point of Christian doctrine.

Very much an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin class of argument.

Speedwell · Mar 12, 2019

T. Taylor said:
It is not an essential point of Christian doctrine indeed but it belongs to the foundations of faith.

I really don't see how the shape of the Earth is foundational to the Christian faith. It is no more relevant than the size of the Moon or the number of planets in the Solar System.

FEZZILLA · Mar 14, 2019

Astrophile said:
In fact this is incorrect. Isaiah 40:22 is part of Deutero-Isaiah, which was written during the period 550-539 BC - Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia . According to Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood, the Greek philosopher Pythagoras was already speculating about the possibility that the Earth was a sphere; since he lived from about 582 to 500 BC, he was a contemporary of Deutero-Isaiah. However, in my opinion this has no bearing on the interpretation of Isaiah 40:22.

Sorry but the 21st century atheist view isn't supported by ancient Jewish tradition. Wiki is a bad site and I correct their mistakes all the time and have been doing so for years now. Isaiah was written in 700 B.C. I also bet the composition of any Greek work containing Pythagoras was probably written at a much later date as is the case with all other Greek works of antiquity.

FEZZILLA · Mar 14, 2019

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
• Aurelius Ambrosius (Ambrose) the bishop of Milan. (337-397 A.D.)

"But they say that The Sun can be said to be alone, because there is no second sun. But the Sun himself has many things in common with the stars, For He Travels Across The Heavens, he is of that ethereal and heavenly substance, he is a creature, and is reckoned amongst all the works of God. He serves God in union with all, blesses Him with all, praises Him with all. Therefore he cannot accurately be said to be alone, for he is not set apart from the rest."

Exposition of the Christian Faith, Book 5, Chapter 2

CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition of the Christian Faith, Book V (Ambrose)

From This Site: Philip Stallings: The Biblical Flat Earth: Quotes Of The Early Church Fathers And Protestant Reformers

Your post has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Yes, Ecc.1:5 says the sun moves around the earth. But not a word of the Book is prophecy. Ecclesiastes was a journal of Solomon's life, his search for wisdom and his conclusion. Many early Christians read Ecc.1:5 and trusted that Solomon had it right. But Solomon's one err in Ecclesiastes was that of the sun. Perhaps when Solomon fell into paganism he held to that belief. Job 38:12, 14; Psalm 19:4 has the sun fixed in its position --- a tent for the sun. The rest of the passage is figurative.

Most of the early church fathers believed the sun move. Though not all of them did. It all depended on how well they understood tricky passages like Job 38:12, 14 (earth facing the sun--the dayspring--while it is rotating, turning) or Psalm 19:4 (sun's position in a tent -- or solar system. Joshua 10 passage had very little influence over the matter if any. But Ecc.1:5 is most often quoted by the church fathers in regards to the sun. Again, not a word in Ecclesiastes is prophetic text. The entire Book of Ecclesiastes comes from Solomon's perspective of life.

FEZZILLA · Mar 14, 2019

Not one quote you cited said anything about flat earth. But lets examine the Pseudepigrapha book of Enoch which is not even on par with the Apocrypha books.

T. Taylor said:
From the Book of Enoch:

"1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation 2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four 3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven. 4 I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and 5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths 6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones, 7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone. 8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the 9,10 throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards 12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'"
Book of Enoch, Chapter 18

"1 And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven rests, and the portals of the heaven open. 2And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and 3 I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their 4 times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies."
Book of Enoch Chapter 33

11 And the other Angel spoke to me, the one who went with me and showed me what is secret; what is first and last in Heaven, in the heights, and under the dry ground, in the depths, and at the Ends of Heaven, and at the Foundations of Heaven, and in the Storehouses of the Winds.
Book of Enoch Chapter 60

17 And through it the earth was founded upon the water, and from the hidden recesses of the mountains come beautiful waters, from the creation of the world and for ever. 18 And through that oath the sea was created, and as its foundation, for the time of anger, he placed for it the sand, and it does not go beyond it, from the creation of the world and for ever. 19 And through that oath the deeps were made firm, and they stand and do not move from their place, from the creation of the world and for ever.20 And through that oath the Sun and the Moon complete their course and do not transgress their command, from the creation of the world and for ever. 21 And through that oath the stars complete their course, and he calls their names, and they answer him, from the creation of the world and for ever.
Book of Enoch Chapter 69

[emphasis added by me]

The foundation of the earth is molted rock.

As far the rest of it, why does everybody think in 2D? Now the term "ends of the earth" isn't a problem. What I do find problematic is "I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven." This does seem to support the flat earth view which correlates with "the waters of death" mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh which represented the edge of the world where sailing ships fall off. So when I read anything ancient I try to be fair to the text and understand what it means without forgetting about the skepticism. Sometimes it takes much time to solve these things if there is indeed a solution. So the fair treatment of the Enoch passage above would be to explain the extreme ends of the earth as in height and not just the breadth of the earth. The earth that rest on the heaven could be possibly speaking about (a) the first heaven which ends after we leave our Exosphere which is the last atmospheric layer of earth. When we leave the Exosphere we have entered into space, or the 2nd heaven. So perhaps Enoch is talking about the ends of the earth as in height. Or (b) it may be connected to the earth's suspension in space (the 2nd heaven), as the earth is being explained by resting on the heaven (Job 26:7).

“These are the two great luminaries. Their roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and the magnitude of their roundness is equivalent for both. There are seven (more) portions of light that move in the sun’s sphere than in the moon’s and it increases in measure until they seventy of the sun are competed” (Enoch 78:3-4).

The sun’s sphere? So the sun and moon are spheres but the earth is a flat disc? Is this how flat earthers want us to understand it? Flat earthers also try to say this verse supports their flat earth assumptions. But if this is speaking about a flat earth, then it is speaking about a vertical flat earth! For the author of Enoch compared the curvature of the sky to the roundness of the sun and moon. Since the sun and moon appear vertical to us, therefore the earth would also be seen as vertical from the moon. Thus if we are to accept a flat earth interpretation, the flat earthers have to explain how water and people etc. keep from falling off this vertical earth with no gravity! Its simple to see how the author of Enoch is comparing the sphere of the sun to roundness of the earthly sky.

Flat earthers also claim the Bible teaches us how the moon--literally--gives off its own light. Verses in the Bible that mention the moon giving light are not to be taken literally in terms of 21st century linguistics and science. Since flat earthers have Canonized Enoch, lets see what Enoch says about the moon and its light:

“Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which (direction) of the bright sun it is beamed. During all the seasons when the moon is made to run its cycle, the light is being beamed into it (the moon) facing the sun until the illumination (of the moon) is complete in the course of fourteen days; and when it is lit completely, it radiates light in the sky” (Enoch 78:10-11).

So here, in the book of Enoch, we read how the sun beams light into the moon from the sun. This does not support the FE model either!

FEZZILLA · Mar 14, 2019

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Circles can be flat :

And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel, 'An end! The end is coming on The Four Corners Of The Land.
• Ezekiel 7:2

And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From The Four Corners Of The Earth.
• Isaiah 11:12

After this I saw four angels standing At The Four Corners Of The Earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
• Revelation 7:1

and will come out to deceive the nations which are in The Four Corners Of The Earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
• Revelation 20:8

Isaiah 40:22,

"That he sytteth vpon the Circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitours of the worlde are in coparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heaues as a coueringe, that he stretcheth them out, as. a tent to dwell in" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" (ESV).

"It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants are as grasshoppers,
who stretches out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in" (MEV).

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...ZrqUKrI32f-pYRji_DQ7io9Se-u4H6zbQ_7r3IoBrmJJ0

Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d..._vUs1MqHn8rZ0-vsijY75pyprlwpDoHuqVWsQ8xKkacc4

The English Definition of circle and all its synonyms
I found great synonyms for "circle" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Right off the bat I found "sphere, globe, horizon, round."

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circle

It says: "2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth."

An orb. Lets see what an orb is in English
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - orb

So an orb describes a sphere or a globe.

The English definition of globe
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - globe

"GLOBE, verb transitive To gather round or into a circle."

The English Definition of sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - sphere

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens."
"4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere."

Strong's H2329, "circle" and "circuit"

The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

The English definition of circular
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circular

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

The definition of circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - compass

"COMPASS, verb transitive
1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Now lets look at synonyms for sphere
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Circle is a synonym for sphere.

Synonyms for orb
I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

It says "sphere, ball, circle, round."

So it is very clear there is more than one application for the word circle. The application that best fits Proverbs 8:27 and Isaiah 40:22 is globe/sphere/orb.

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

Revelation 7:1

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Flat earthers read this verse absolutely literally. The Book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy which contains lots of symbolism and figurative expressions for the purpose of explaining much deeper spiritual events which will take place in the last days. Hence, Revelation is not meant to be understood so literally as flat earthers read it.

The "four corners of the earth" is an expression which means "the extremities of the earth" in all cardinal directions (north, east, south, west -- the four points of a compass). Revelation 7:1 also alludes to the four spirits of heaven as mentioned in Zechariah 6:5,

"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth."

Believer's Bible Commentary -- Rev.7:1-4,

"7:1-4 The vision of the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed."

The passage is figurative because capturing deep spiritual revelation is hard to put down in any common language. Thus the four winds are the winds of change which will bring about a terrible destruction upon the earth and in all four quarters of the earth. But God delays this coming storm of disaster by holding back the winds of change -- which are also not to be understood as literal winds.

And again we see "the four corners of the earth" in Isaiah 11:12,

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

The word "corners" is Strong's H3671 כָּנָף kânâph, which is also used in Isaiah 24:16,

"From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

In this verse the expression is defined as "the extremities of the earth" according to the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon. But kânâph is not just used in context of the entire globe. It is also used to express a regional area as further expressed in Ezekiel 7:2,

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land."

It is very clear by reading the verse that kânâph is used as an expression for all four directions and not a reference to the shape of the earth itself. The Bible uses many expressions which are meant to be understood from a deeper spiritual perspective and not from a literal or scientific expression.

The Greek word used in Rev.7:1 is Strong's G1137 γωνία gōnía. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it as "the four extreme limits of the earth, Revelation 7:1; Revelation 20:8."

Rev.20:8 says,

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Once again γωνία (gōnía) is used to express the far reaches of the earth in all four quarters (i.e., directions). It is not saying the earth is flat.

Common Sense

From the 1st century on up to the present now, Christian leaders have always taught globe earth. But why would the early church fathers teach globe earth from the Bible if Scripture says its flat? The Bible does not teach flat earth and if it did you better believe the early church fathers would have left for us a flat earth tradition. But they didn't. They didn't because Scripture teaches globe earth. Rev.7:1 is an expression which was never intended to describe the literal shape of the earth. The early church fathers were not Godless men, but had a very strong knowledge of Scripture which is why they were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Gospel after they were gone. So they knew about verses such as Isaiah 40:22 -- "the circle of the earth." So why would the Apostle John contradict Isaiah? He wouldn't and he didn't.

Verses like Isaiah 40:22 are about the shape of the earth. Rev.7:1 is not about the shape of the earth. Whenever the Bible speaks about the shape of the earth its in context with God's creation and dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. Rev.7:1 simply expresses the extremities of the earth.

SeventyOne · Mar 14, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Your post has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Yes, Ecc.1:5 says the sun moves around the earth. But not a word of the Book is prophecy. Ecclesiastes was a journal of Solomon's life, his search for wisdom and his conclusion. Many early Christians read Ecc.1:5 and trusted that Solomon had it right. But Solomon's one err in Ecclesiastes was that of the sun. Perhaps when Solomon fell into paganism he held to that belief.

You do realize that you just had to willingly deny scripture to maintain your personal belief, right? You are no more credible than the atheists you keep coming against on the topic.

lasthero · Mar 14, 2019

SeventyOne said:
You are no more credible than the atheists you keep coming against on the topic.

It's worth noting that vast majority of posts in this topic are from other Christians.

SeventyOne · Mar 14, 2019

lasthero said:
It's worth noting that vast majority of posts in this topic are from other Christians.

I'm not referencing the actual posters as much as the numerous times he references his perception of the point of view of atheists in the past.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 14, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Isaiah 40:22,

"That he sytteth vpon the Circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitours of the worlde are in coparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heaues as a coueringe, that he stretcheth them out, as. a tent to dwell in" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" (ESV).

"It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants are as grasshoppers,
who stretches out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in" (MEV).

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...ZrqUKrI32f-pYRji_DQ7io9Se-u4H6zbQ_7r3IoBrmJJ0

Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d..._vUs1MqHn8rZ0-vsijY75pyprlwpDoHuqVWsQ8xKkacc4

The English Definition of circle and all its synonyms
I found great synonyms for "circle" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Right off the bat I found "sphere, globe, horizon, round."

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circle

It says: "2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth."

An orb. Lets see what an orb is in English
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - orb

So an orb describes a sphere or a globe.

The English definition of globe
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - globe

"GLOBE, verb transitive To gather round or into a circle."

The English Definition of sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - sphere

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens."
"4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere."

Strong's H2329, "circle" and "circuit"

The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

The English definition of circular
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circular

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

The definition of circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - compass

"COMPASS, verb transitive
1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Now lets look at synonyms for sphere
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Circle is a synonym for sphere.

Synonyms for orb
I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

It says "sphere, ball, circle, round."

So it is very clear there is more than one application for the word circle. The application that best fits Proverbs 8:27 and Isaiah 40:22 is globe/sphere/orb.

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
View attachment 252870

Revelation 7:1

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Flat earthers read this verse absolutely literally. The Book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy which contains lots of symbolism and figurative expressions for the purpose of explaining much deeper spiritual events which will take place in the last days. Hence, Revelation is not meant to be understood so literally as flat earthers read it.

The "four corners of the earth" is an expression which means "the extremities of the earth" in all cardinal directions (north, east, south, west -- the four points of a compass). Revelation 7:1 also alludes to the four spirits of heaven as mentioned in Zechariah 6:5,

"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth."

Believer's Bible Commentary -- Rev.7:1-4,

"7:1-4 The vision of the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed."

The passage is figurative because capturing deep spiritual revelation is hard to put down in any common language. Thus the four winds are the winds of change which will bring about a terrible destruction upon the earth and in all four quarters of the earth. But God delays this coming storm of disaster by holding back the winds of change -- which are also not to be understood as literal winds.

And again we see "the four corners of the earth" in Isaiah 11:12,

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

The word "corners" is Strong's H3671 כָּנָף kânâph, which is also used in Isaiah 24:16,

"From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

In this verse the expression is defined as "the extremities of the earth" according to the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon. But kânâph is not just used in context of the entire globe. It is also used to express a regional area as further expressed in Ezekiel 7:2,

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land."

It is very clear by reading the verse that kânâph is used as an expression for all four directions and not a reference to the shape of the earth itself. The Bible uses many expressions which are meant to be understood from a deeper spiritual perspective and not from a literal or scientific expression.

The Greek word used in Rev.7:1 is Strong's G1137 γωνία gōnía. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it as "the four extreme limits of the earth, Revelation 7:1; Revelation 20:8."

Rev.20:8 says,

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Once again γωνία (gōnía) is used to express the far reaches of the earth in all four quarters (i.e., directions). It is not saying the earth is flat.

Common Sense

From the 1st century on up to the present now, Christian leaders have always taught globe earth. But why would the early church fathers teach globe earth from the Bible if Scripture says its flat? The Bible does not teach flat earth and if it did you better believe the early church fathers would have left for us a flat earth tradition. But they didn't. They didn't because Scripture teaches globe earth. Rev.7:1 is an expression which was never intended to describe the literal shape of the earth. The early church fathers were not Godless men, but had a very strong knowledge of Scripture which is why they were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Gospel after they were gone. So they knew about verses such as Isaiah 40:22 -- "the circle of the earth." So why would the Apostle John contradict Isaiah? He wouldn't and he didn't.

Verses like Isaiah 40:22 are about the shape of the earth. Rev.7:1 is not about the shape of the earth. Whenever the Bible speaks about the shape of the earth its in context with God's creation and dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. Rev.7:1 simply expresses the extremities of the earth.
View attachment 252871

"Globe" Of The Earth

It's Still Flat. It Still Has Corners And It Still Is A Circle:

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 14, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Your post has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Yes, Ecc.1:5 says the sun moves around the earth. But not a word of the Book is prophecy. Ecclesiastes was a journal of Solomon's life, his search for wisdom and his conclusion. Many early Christians read Ecc.1:5 and trusted that Solomon had it right. But Solomon's one err in Ecclesiastes was that of the sun. Perhaps when Solomon fell into paganism he held to that belief. Job 38:12, 14; Psalm 19:4 has the sun fixed in its position --- a tent for the sun. The rest of the passage is figurative.
View attachment 252868

Most of the early church fathers believed the sun move. Though not all of them did. It all depended on how well they understood tricky passages like Job 38:12, 14 (earth facing the sun--the dayspring--while it is rotating, turning) or Psalm 19:4 (sun's position in a tent -- or solar system. Joshua 10 passage had very little influence over the matter if any. But Ecc.1:5 is most often quoted by the church fathers in regards to the sun. Again, not a word in Ecclesiastes is prophetic text. The entire Book of Ecclesiastes comes from Solomon's perspective of life.

The Sun and Moon Move. The Earth Does Not.

The Earth has A CornerStone. Spinning Balls Don't Have A Cornerstone.

“Where were you when I Laid The Foundation Of The Earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched The Line Upon It?
On What Were It's Bases Sunk,
Or Who Laid IT'S CORNERSTONE,

• Job 38:4-6

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 14, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Yes, Ecc.1:5 says The Sun Moves Around The Earth.

This is where you should have ended your post.

FEZZILLA said:
But Solomon's One Err in Ecclesiastes was that of The Sun.

God Doesn't Make Mistakes. Especially when it comes To His Word. He wouldn't of even aloud these Scriptures to be written down as Holy Scripture if it wasn't true.

FEZZILLA · Mar 14, 2019

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
This is where you should have ended your post.

God Doesn't Make Mistakes. Especially when it comes To His Word. He wouldn't of even aloud these Scriptures to be written down as Holy Scripture if it wasn't true.

This is where you are short handed about Canonical Books. Books like Ester never mention God. Ecclesiastes is a work attributed to Solomon dealing with his life's journey and quest for wisdom. Prophecy is Divine revelation spoken through the prophet. Solomon made no prophecies in Ecclesiastes. There is no "Thus saith the LORD" in the Book. This does not mean Ecclesiastes is not inspired Scripture, but it does mean that Ecclesiastes is not a Book of prophecy as it contains no revelation in the Book. Ecclesiastes is a Book of wisdom and people would do well to pay attention to it. But God did not make a mistake...Solomon did. Solomon also had at one point fallen into idolatry as well. Its in Scripture because its a very important part of Jewish antiquity. And a clear read of Song of Solomon reveals the romantic side of Jewish life.

Moses was a prophet.
Samuel was a prophet.
David was a prophet.
Elijah was a prophet.
Isaiah was a prophet.
Jeremiah was a prophet.
Ezekiel was a prophet.
Daniel was a prophet.
Amos was a prophet.

The words spoken by these prophets and others not mentioned are spoken by God through the prophet. Not every Book in the Bible is a Book of prophecy.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 14, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
This is where you are short handed about Canonical Books. Books like Ester never mention God. Ecclesiastes is a work attributed to Solomon dealing with his life's journey and quest for wisdom. Prophecy is Divine revelation spoken through the prophet. Solomon made no prophecies in Ecclesiastes. There is no "Thus saith the LORD" in the Book. This does not mean Ecclesiastes is not inspired Scripture, but it does mean that Ecclesiastes is not a Book of prophecy as it contains no revelation in the Book. Ecclesiastes is a Book of wisdom and people would do well to pay attention to it. But God did not make a mistake...Solomon did. Solomon also had at one point fallen into idolatry as well. Its in Scripture because its a very important part of Jewish antiquity. And a clear read of Song of Solomon reveals the romantic side of Jewish life.

Moses was a prophet.
Samuel was a prophet.
David was a prophet.
Elijah was a prophet.
Isaiah was a prophet.
Jeremiah was a prophet.
Ezekiel was a prophet.
Daniel was a prophet.
Amos was a prophet.

The words spoken by these prophets and others not mentioned are spoken by God through the prophet. Not every Book in the Bible is a Book of prophecy.

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Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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