Battle of Dual Covenant Theology and the Charge of "Replacement Theology"

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Yes, and those such as Isaiah are the people of God, just as we are.
The author of the Book of Hebrews revealed that their inheritance is the same as ours.Read Revelation 11:15-18, and maybe your eyes will be "unveiled" about the future judgment of the dead.

.
I had a feeling you were going to bring that passage up again, like a broken record...... ;).
So I created a thread on it just for you...........:angel:

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, time of the dead judged, reward the Saints"

Revelation 11:
14 The woe, the second is passed away<565>.
Behold! the woe, the third coming swiftly<5035>.
15 And the seventh Messenger trumpets, and there became great voices/sounds<5456> in the heaven, saying, "became the kingdom of the world<2889> of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall be reigning into the ages of the ages!"
16 And the twenty four Elders, in view of the God, are sitting upon Their thrones and fall upon Their faces, and worship to the God, 17 saying,
"We are thanking to Thee Lord, the God, the Almighty,
the One being, and and the One was, [and One coming],
that Thou has taken/gotten the power of Thee, the great, and Thou reign.
18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>,
And the time/season<2540> of the dead to be judged<2919>,
And to give the reward/wages<3408> to Thy bondslaves, the Prophets and to the Saints,
and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great
And to destroy/ruin<1311> those destroying/ruining<1311> the land.”
 
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BABerean2

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I had a feeling you were going to bring that passage up again, like a broken record...... ;).
So I created a thread on it just for you...........:angel:

It is not for me.

It is for you.

Until you deal with the judgment of the dead, you will be avoiding the truth.

If you have to ignore it to make your doctrine work, then you have exposed your doctrine as another man-made doctrine.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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It is not for me.
It is for you.
Until you deal with the judgment of the dead, you will be avoiding the truth.
If you have to ignore it to make your doctrine work, then you have exposed your doctrine as another man-made doctrine.

.
;)
 
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Jerryhuerta

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After four millennia of genetic dispersion and diffusion, it is impossible to distinguish Ephraim (or any other tribe) biologically.

The Jewish community itself confirms (and applauds) the reality of its genetic ubiquity.

As does the mathematics.

But then, Israel was genetically multiracial from the beginning (Genesis 17:12), and God's Covenant People have never been distinguished by their physical DNA.

Only by the two chromosomes of their spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

How typical. No matter how diminished their heritage becomes, the descendants of the 10 tribes still remain descendants. God knows who they are; he is omnipotent. Who is in control, God or man?
 
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jgr

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How typical. No matter how diminished their heritage becomes, the descendants of the 10 tribes still remain descendants. God knows who they are; he is omnipotent. Who is in control, God or man?

And from the beginning, what covenant significance did He attach to tribal "descendants"?

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

That's right.

Precisely none.

The exact same covenant was extended impartially to those who were of Abraham's seed, and to those who were not of Abraham's seed.

Physical pedigree was never a covenant requisite.

God has never changed His mind.

The only descendants that He has ever recognized are spiritual descendants.

Those possessing Abraham's spiritual DNA.

Two chromosomes.

Faith and obedience.

Nothing else.
 
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parousia70

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Read the thread.
I have. All the way through.
You never say when it took place.
Do you have an answer as to when it took place?
Do you even know when it took place?

When does scripture say Matthew 21:40-45 takes place?
 
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BABerean2

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How typical. No matter how diminished their heritage becomes, the descendants of the 10 tribes still remain descendants.

1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

.
 
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BABerean2

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Should citizens of another nation(Israel) be allowed to hold key positions in the government of the United States?

Does Dual citizenship= Dual loyalty?

Should a group (AIPAC) which advocates for a foreign government (Israel) be allowed to get wealthy donors to send campaign money to members of Congress, and the president?




.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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And from the beginning, what covenant significance did He attach to tribal "descendants"?

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

That's right.

Precisely none.

The exact same covenant was extended impartially to those who were of Abraham's seed, and to those who were not of Abraham's seed.

Physical pedigree was never a covenant requisite.

God has never changed His mind.

The only descendants that He has ever recognized are spiritual descendants.

Those possessing Abraham's spiritual DNA.

Two chromosomes.

Faith and obedience.

Nothing else.

After years of studying and trying to apologize for some of these same perceptions you do I came to the realization, there had to be a greater truth that ends the debate, at least for myself and a minority in Christianity who have come to the same truth. Try as one wants, one can never prevail against the truth than chosen biological descendants were extremely significant in the promises to Abraham. After all, even the NT affirms that the promises of God were to Isaac and not Ishmael. The promise that a descendant of David/Judah would inherit the scepter and that Joseph would retain the birthright. One is merely kicking against the pricks in their attempts to rationalize away the significance of biological descendants in the promises to Abraham.

Actually, the proper interpretation of scripture, both Old and New Testaments, maintains that the church is a NT phenomenon.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18​

Of course, Christ was speaking of himself. It is not so hard to find Christ, in his divinity, in the OT, but he is bound to certain people, the descendants of Abraham, with VERY few exceptions. It is not until the first advent that he calls for the great commission to the world, through the church, to proclaim the gospel that the gentiles start coming into the fold until they attain hegemony, at least by appearance. But these aforementioned circumstances are not only affirmed in the NT, but the OT has much to say concerning them also. In Isaiah 49 Christ is personified as the Servant who is tasked “to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel” as he is also given “for a light to the Gentiles,” that he may be his Father’s “salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6). No gainsay can prevail against the perception and scriptural proof that these tasks are a NT phenomenon as the Servant is Christ and the commission to take the gospel to the world cannot avoid in saving the elect descendants of Abraham as well as the elect gentiles. In essence the church was founded by Christ, the Servant in Isaiah, to save the “elect” descendants of Israel, both houses, to whom the New Covenant is made, and to gather all the elect gentiles in this age, while both houses of Israel are scattered all over the world, or nations. This is why I used the phrase, at least by appearances. In truth, the preponderance of the descendants lost their identity but God knows who and where they are and as he saves them in this age, he is fulfilling the promises to the descendants of Abraham as he saves the gentiles. And when I state "elect" descendants it affirms they are spiritual Israel also; for one can be a biological descendant of Abraham and his spirititual desendant also.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

.
I'm not quibbling whose a descendant; I'm merely citing prophecy about how Ephraim inherits the gentiles and becomes the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard. You are trying to suppress the prophecies of Ephraim to hold the heresy of Replacement theology.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I have. All the way through.
You never say when it took place.
Do you have an answer as to when it took place?
Do you even know when it took place?

When does scripture say Matthew 21:40-45 takes place?

I stated it on the thread, Dispensationalism refuted. Peter affirms it in his epistles to the elect exiles of the dispersion that the 10 tribes had become a holy nation who previously had been rejected by God, substantiated when he cites Hosea 2:23 in 1 Peter 2:9-10.

It is also substantiated by the fact Ephraim could not return because of the law in Deuteronomy 24:4 that states that a defiled and divorced woman cannot return to her first husband. Romans 7:1-4 affirms the body of Christ released Ephraim from the law and it was then that they were restored and able to be betrothed as in Hosea 2:14-23.
 
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parousia70

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I stated it on the thread, Dispensationalism refuted.
So when you said “read the thread” I was supposed to know you didn’t mean THIS thread, but instead you meant another thread and I was supposed to know what thread that was?
Really?

Romans 7:1-4 affirms the body of Christ released Ephraim from the law and it was then that they were restored and able to be betrothed as in Hosea 2:14-23.

Got a specific year for this at least?

What I asked was “WHEN do you say this happened?”

30 AD?
Nope... we can rule that and anything earlier out, for Matthew 21 is clear, it happens AFTER the Son Is killed..

So, what say you?
50 AD?
70 AD?
90 AD?
Later than that?

Within a decade will do...

So, again, WHEN do you say this happened?

I’m suspicious about why all the gymnastics just to avoid the simple answer to my simple question.
 
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keras

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I stated it on the thread, Dispensationalism refuted. Peter affirms it in his epistles to the elect exiles of the dispersion that the 10 tribes had become a holy nation who previously had been rejected by God, substantiated when he cites Hosea 2:23 in 1 Peter 2:9-10.
The holy people of God, every born again Christian, are from every tribe, race, nation and language on earth. Revelation 5:9-10
But God does have a secret, He knows who and where the 10 tribes are now and it seems that they have, in the main, become Christian. This proves that Jesus's mission did not fail. Matthew 15:24

You display the usual hatred of 'Replacement Theology'. You must do this, as a believer in a 'rapture to heaven', pre, mid, post or whenever, you must have the Jews on earth while you sit in heaven. All totally unscriptural nonsense, a fairy tale of Hollywood proportions.
NO ONE is replaced. There has always been a faithful people of God, from Abel to Elijah's 7000, to the early Jesus followers, until today; every truly born again Christian. Jew, Gentiles, all the faithful peoples.

We never go to heaven, Jesus said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13. + But God does promise to protect and bless His people, as we become the people He wants us to be; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
 
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BABerean2

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I'm not quibbling whose a descendant; I'm merely citing prophecy about how Ephraim inherits the gentiles and becomes the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard.

You cannot have it both ways.
Either you are standing in opposition to what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, or you are not.
Either Paul is confused, or you are confused.



You are trying to suppress the prophecies of Ephraim to hold the heresy of Replacement theology.

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed (Christ), with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:6-8.

It replaces the "son" who is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".


It ignores the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant.

Who do you think Peter was talking to?

If ignores the fact that James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes".

Who do you think James was talking to?

.
 
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parousia70

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I'm not quibbling whose a descendant; I'm merely citing prophecy about how Ephraim inherits the gentiles and becomes the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard.

But WHEN did that Happen?
Or are we still waiting for it to come to pass?
 
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parousia70

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Until you deal with the judgment of the dead, you will be avoiding the truth.

If you have to ignore it to make your doctrine work, then you have exposed your doctrine as another man-made doctrine.


.
Here's my thoughts...
Partial Preterists such as myself understand a somewhat different aspect of resurrection/judgement: the transfer of the OT dead who were being held in Hades/Sheol.

In the same way baptism is related to resurrection (Romans 6:1-11), so too was that key event. Christians have never been unified on the precise date at which the OT dead were permitted to exit Sheol, but nearly all agree it was sometime in the 1st century. (even though some fringe groups hold they are still there today)

Eternal life was granted to the whole body of the saints at AD 70, both the dead and the living. All were changed positionally into redeemed sons of God. The dead, however, were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye at AD 70 and into Heaven. The living now never experience biblical death as did the O.T. saints up to AD 70.

Nearly all Christian groups agree that the dead of Hades exited that place somewhere in the first century, so such a belief is clearly not a Full Preterist Belief.

I am merely pinpointing what I believe was the precise timing and the reason for that timing.

1 Cor. 15:54-56 plainly says that the victory for the dead was over the OT Hades (see literal greek). Moreover, it says that the very thing that had been holding the dead apart from victory was The Law (of Moses). Therefore, this entirely supports the argument that 1 Thess 4 is speaking about the OT dead in Hades who had to await the full end of the Old Covenant age before they would have victory over Hades, where they were at that time residing.

Typically, partial preterists say they expect the following events at some far distant time in the future:

*Resurrection of the Dead
*Final Judgment
*Final Coming of Christ

I believe Rev 20:12-15 is parallel to 1 Cor 15:55-56:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where,O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

--COMPARE TO--

Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne...and the dead were judged...and DEATH and HADES gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. THEN DEATH AND HADES WERE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Therefore any partial preterist who thinks Rev 20 is past, then they must concede that 1 Cor 15:55-56 is past.

Follow?

I believe Partial Preterists such as Dr. Scott Hahn hold these as fulfilled; Like partial preterist me, if he does, then he holds to a separate, future to us, resurrection of the dead that is STRICTLY from creeds and not scripture.

What does scripture teach about the Biblical resurrection of the dead?

(1) Resurrection was "about to" happen in Paul's lifetime -- "there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

(2) Paul expected that he and the first-century Thessalonians would remain alive unto the resurrection -- "we who are living, who do remain over to the presence of the Lord, may not precede those asleep" (1 Thess 4:15)

(3) Resurrection involved the defeat of HADES/PURGATORIO (the place of the OT dead), which was tied to end of the Mosaic Law era -- "then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law" (1 Cor 15:54-56)

(4) Resurrection is always for "the dead," and it involves heavenly, spiritual bodies -- "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly." (1 Cor 15:44,49)

As the Creeds teach a future to us Resurrection/Judgement, and I as a Catholic hold the creeds as authoritative, I affirm a future, separate resurrection/Judgement that the Biblical resurrection/Judgement that took place in the 1st century likely prefigures. The timing and details of which have not been revealed to men. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Here's my thoughts...
Partial Preterists such as myself understand a somewhat different aspect of resurrection/judgement: the transfer of the OT dead who were being held in Hades/Sheol.

In the same way baptism is related to resurrection (Romans 6:1-11), so too was that key event. Christians have never known the precise date at which the OT dead were permitted to exit Sheol.

Eternal life was granted to the whole body of the saints at AD 70, both the dead and the living. All were changed positionally into redeemed sons of God. The dead, however, were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye at AD 70 and into Heaven. The living now never experience biblical death as did the O.T. saints up to AD 70.

Nearly all Christian groups agree that the dead of Hades exited that place somewhere in the first century, so such a belief is clearly not a Full Preterist Belief.

I am merely pinpointing what I believe was the precise timing and the reason for that timing.

1 Cor. 15:54-56 plainly says that the victory for the dead was over the OT Hades (see literal greek). Moreover, it says that the very thing that had been holding the dead apart from victory was The Law (of Moses). Therefore, this entirely supports the argument that 1 Thess 4 is speaking about the OT dead in Hades who had to await the full end of the Old Covenant age before they would have victory over Hades, where they were at that time residing.

Typically, partial preterists say they expect the following events at some far distant time in the future:

*Resurrection of the Dead
*Final Judgment
*Final Coming of Christ

I believe Rev 20:12-15 is parallel to 1 Cor 15:55-56:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where,O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

--COMPARE TO--

Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne...and the dead were judged...and DEATH and HADES gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. THEN DEATH AND HADES WERE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Therefore any partial preterist who thinks Rev 20 is past, then they must concede that 1 Cor 15:55-56 is past.

Follow?

I believe Partial Preterists such as Dr. Scott Hahn hold these as fulfilled; Like partial preterist me, if he does, then he holds to a separate, future to us, resurrection of the dead that is STRICTLY from creeds and not scripture.

What does scripture teach about the Biblical resurrection of the dead?

(1) Resurrection was "about to" happen in Paul's lifetime -- "there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

(2) Paul expected that he and the first-century Thessalonians would remain alive unto the resurrection -- "we who are living, who do remain over to the presence of the Lord, may not precede those asleep" (1 Thess 4:15)

(3) Resurrection involved the defeat of HADES/PURGATORIO (the place of the OT dead), which was tied to end of the Mosaic Law era -- "then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law" (1 Cor 15:54-56)

(4) Resurrection is always for "the dead," and it involves heavenly, spiritual bodies -- "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly." (1 Cor 15:44,49)

As the Creeds teach a future to us Resurrection/Judgement, and I as a Catholic hold the creeds as authoritative, I affirm a future, separate resurrection/Judgement that the Biblical resurrection/Judgement that took place in the 1st century likely prefigures.
Very informative post from the partial preterist 70ad view.
Aren't Catholics Amil also?
 
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parousia70

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Very informative post from the partial preterist 70ad view.
Aren't Catholics Amil also?

Yes. typically.
Catholic Theologian Dr Scott Hahn does affirm the Davidic Monarchy Typology for the Millennium, which I suppose makes Him Post/A/Mil... Kinda like me.

I've recently come to the conclusion that the moniker that best suits my personal eschatological position is "Maximum Partial Preterism".
:)
 
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jgr

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After years of studying and trying to apologize for some of these same perceptions you do I came to the realization, there had to be a greater truth that ends the debate, at least for myself and a minority in Christianity who have come to the same truth.

Faith and obedience have never required an apology.

Try as one wants, one can never prevail against the truth than chosen biological descendants were extremely significant in the promises to Abraham.

You seem unwilling to understand that Israel was multiracial from its beginning, and throughout the entirety of its history. “Biology” was never a covenant qualification. Faith and obedience were the sole and exclusive covenant criteria, as they have always been. The unfaithful and disobedient invariably ended up prematurely dead, irrespective of their biology.

Korah and his followers were fully biologically qualified. It didn't save them from destruction. Nor did it save the thousands who perished in the ensuing plague. (Numbers 16)

The promises were to Christ, and those who are in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,28,29). "There is neither Jew nor Greek" explicitly excludes biology as a covenant criterion.

Provide one Scripture which demonstrates your supersessionist replacement claim that biology supersedes and replaces faith and obedience as God's covenant requisite.

Today, Jewish "biology" is found in virtually the entire human race. The outcome of your claims is thus salvation for all, i.e. universalism.

Actually, the proper interpretation of scripture, both Old and New Testaments, maintains that the church is a NT phenomenon.

The church is not a "phenomenon". It is an ageless vehicle God has used for communing with His people, beginning in the Old Testament. (Acts 7:38)

It is not so hard to find Christ, in his divinity, in the OT, but he is bound to certain people, the descendants of Abraham, with VERY few exceptions.

It is extremely easy to find Christ in the OT, for it is all about Him, as He declared; and the only people he has ever been bound to are the literal and symbolic "7,000" of faith and obedience. (1 Kings 19:18; Acts 10:34,35)

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

And when I state "elect" descendants it affirms they are spiritual Israel also; for one can be a biological descendant of Abraham and his spirititual desendant also.

There is no instance in Scripture where the "elect" are identified biologically.
In every instance, they are identified spiritually, by faith and obedience.

 
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