The Righterzpen: Explain primary and secondary polar bodies then!
I am glad you asked this question! What I said was biological fact that the MATURE ovum (egg) and the mature sperm cell each are haploid, with only 23 chromosomes each (not 46 which is what someone else said). Without going into great detail, the primary & secondary polar bodies have to do with bringing an egg of the woman to maturity, a process called oogenesis. They are by-products that deteriorate & disintegrate (not enough cytoplasm or stored nutrients to feed a developing embryo).
. The cell that will eventually develop into a mature egg is called an oocyte. It has 92 chromosomes initially. It goes through a two stage process called meiosis (Greek term meaning: 'a lessening'). It means lessening because the original oocyte with 92 chromosomes is lessened down to just 23 in the final mature female egg or ovum.
At first there is a diploid oocyte (92 chromosomes--4 identical pairs of chromosomes of the mother) called the primary oocyte. Meiosis I occurs in which synapsis happens & tetrads form. The initial cell now becomes the secondary oocyte (46 chromosomes) & the first polar body (46 chromosomes). The haploid (cut in two now from 92) secondary oocyte undergoes meiosis II forming what is called an ootid (now down to 23 chromosomes) & a secondary polar body(the other 23 chromosomes). The first polar body also undergoes the meiosis II process as well, forming into two polar bodies (each having 23 chromosomes) for a total of three. All three polar bodies at the end of Meiosis II disintegrate leaving only the 'ootid' which undergoes maturation & eventually matures into an ovum or egg, ready to be fertilized by a sperm cell.
Polar bodies do not have enough cytoplasm & nutrients to support an embryo. Even if fertilized, which doesn't happen, it would not survive in humans. The reason I say it wouldn't have a high probability of being fertilized, is because these polar bodies never make it out of the ovary into the fallopian tube where the sperm meets up with the egg.
God designed it that way in human beings! He is wise & knew man would always try to manipulate & mess with what God designed. Remember the tower of Babel? May God have mercy on those messing with what God designed as very good!
So no, God didn't use a diploid polar body to create Jesus. He would HYPOTHETICALLY have been an abnormal female with identical pairs of 23 chromosomes from the mother, not 46 different chromosomes. I say hypothetically, because that is the speculation of this actually happening which wouldn't happen. I hope that helps and helps others to see this supposed happening in Mary's womb would not happen. Down goes another prideful presumption of man.
And by the way, its interesting to see how the Bible describes this process in the Hebrew & Greek terms for made (born) and conceived & the seed of the man or sperm.
Yes, sperm (the man's seed) is mentioned a number of times in the Bible & is shown to be the normal, necessary way for fertilization in human beings. God designed it that way as the NORMAL means of producing offspring.
Gen 38:9 NIV But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his sperm on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.
Leviticus 15:16,18,32 When a man has an emission of
sperm (seed), he must bathe his whole body with water & he will be unclean till evening. If a man sleeps with a woman & has an emission of sperm, both of them are to bathe with water & they will remain unclean until evening. This is the law for the one with a discharge & for the man who has a seminal emission so that he is unclean by it.
Gen 38:18 He said, “What pledge shall I give you?” She replied, “Your signet & your cord & your staff that is in your hand.” So he gave them to her & went in to her & she CONCEIVED (was pregnant) BY HIM.
Women were also known to be fertile & able to have children based on the woman's first menstrual cycle kicking in. The Bible refers to this in various passages also. (e.g., Lev 15:19,20,24,25; 18:19; Ezek 18:5,6)
Evidences (plural) were also given if a husband despising his wife accuses her of unfaithfulness/not being a virgin when married. (Deut 22:13-21 with Deut 17:6)
People emphasize procreation but deliberately or ignorantly fail to mention that God is wonderfully active in the process of conception & growth of the baby in the womb. (Psalm 139). He is the one who continues to breath life & give the spirit within each human being. God is intimately involved in EVERY PERSON BORN. That is why abortion is such a horrendous act. Praise the Lord for those who are pro-life & are active in that movement.
The womb & a woman's reproductive organs are also talked about in the Bible.
Psalm 139:13-16 For you formed my INWARD PARTS; you knit me together in my mother's WOMB. I praise you, for I am fearfully & wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was BEING MADE IN SECRET, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my UNFORMED SUBSTANCE; in your book were written, every one of them, THE DAYS THAT WERE FORMED FOR ME, when as yet there was none of them.
It talks about the spirit & soul (the inward parts of man), it talks about the growth of the baby in the womb (flesh & bones), it talks about the very process of conception, when the egg is fertilized & not yet formed--unformed substance). And the amazing thing that astounds me! God has a book for every person that records every day of that person's life!
Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who MAKES everything.
Don't ever think that God is not intimately concerned about every person that He fashions from conception to death & considers each one wonderfully made.
He most of all was delighted in the miraculous conception & implantation of Jesus in the womb of Mary. My unique & only begotten Son, the only Son having My same nature--as Deity; and yet a physically born baby with flesh & blood. And Jesus was actively involved in that decision with the Father & the Holy Spirit! (Isaiah 48:12,13,16) He came down from Heaven, being sent by the Father & was incarnated--made flesh.
Gal 4:4,5 But when the appointed time had fully come, God sent forth His Son, made (born, come) OF a woman, made (born, come) UNDER the Law, to redeem those UNDER the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons...
What a powerful testimony of the gospel in 2 short verses! The perfect timing of Jesus' birth, both prophetically & the world He was born into. God sent forth His Son, God gave His Son...to redeem & reconcile & bring about adoption as sons, spiritually born from above, a second time.
Then comes the issue of MADE, BORN, COME (YLT) OF a woman.
Matt 11:11 AMONG THEM that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist.”
Job 14:1 “MAN--who is born of a woman--is few of days & full of trouble.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh IS FLESH & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I John 5:6 This is the One who CAME by (Grk 'di' primary preposition denoting the channel of an act of the coming)water & blood, Jesus Christ—not in (Grk 'en' primary preposition denoting position & instrumentality) water ALONE, but in water & blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.
When Jesus was born of a woman & came into this world, the channel of this act was done in both water & blood, an accurate description of physical birth.
Born of a woman is an often repeated, common phrase throughout the Bible, referring to physical human beings. Just as John the Baptist was born of a woman, so was Jesus. Jesus as John was conceived & in the womb of his mother, so was Jesus. Again Scripture leaves us no option to say that Jesus wasn't fully human, of flesh & bones. It is repeated over & over & makes so many comparisons you can't escape it, unless you have believed a lie & have been deceived.
Rom 9:3-5 For I could wish that I myself were cursed & cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, MY OWN FLESH & BLOOD, the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. Theirs is the ADOPTION AS SONS; theirs the divine glory & the covenants; theirs the GIVING OF THE LAW, the temple worship & the promises. Theirs are the PATRIARCHS & FROM THEM--proceeds the HUMAN DESCENT OF THE MESSIAH, who IS God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Gal 4:4 focuses even more closely. The same word is used twice in a row: BORN of and BORN UNDER. In other words, Jesus was a JEWISH MALE HUMAN BEING. Jesus came to the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Salvation comes from the Jews, the gospel is the power of God for salvation to the Jews FIRST, then to the Gentiles. Jesus came born under the Law to redeem those who were born UNDER THE SAME LAW so they might receive the adoption as sons!
H.A.W. Meyer's Commentary says it so well:
This very fact, that Christ, although the Son of God, whom God had sent forth from Himself from heaven, entered into this life as a man through birth from a woman (Rom 5:15; I Cor 15:21; Acts 17:31) &—just as an ordinary man enters into TEMPORAL LIFE AS ONE BORN OF A WOMAN—Paul wishes to bring into prominence as the mode of carrying out the divine counsel. (Rom 8:3; Phil 2:7; Rom 1:3). The supernatural generation which preceded the natural birth was not here in question.
γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον] Luther: “made under the law.” Paul desires to represent the birth of the Son of God not merely as an ordinary human birth, but also as an ordinary Jewish birth (Heb 2:14-17) & he therefore says: “born of a woman, born under the law,” so that He was subjected to circumcision & to all other ordinances of the law, like any other Jewish child. But God caused His Son to be born as an ordinary man & as an ordinary Israelite, because otherwise He could not have undergone death—either at all, or as One cursed by the law (Gal 3:13), which did not apply to those who were not Jews (Rom 1:12)—& could not have rendered the curse of the law of none effect as regards those who were its subjects. (Rom 8:3; Heb 3:14) He redeemed & adopted them!
The truth is, many have become DULL OF HEARING THE WORD OF GOD, HIS VERY BREATHED OUT WORDS! And they have wandered from the truth to their own destruction--how can they escape punishment for ignoring SO GREAT A SALVATION!
'Sanctify them in the truth, Your Word is truth.'
'IF--you continue to remain in My words, THEN you will know the TRUTH & then the truth will set you FREE.'
There is such joy & peace & freedom in knowing & proclaiming the truth! May we as followers of Christ be sanctified-set apart-from the world in God's truth.
The trouble is, many Christians do not know the Scriptures! They don't take into account the WHOLE counsel of God on the subject of conception & birth of human beings, as well as other subjects. There are hundreds of verses throughout the Bible & I am seeking to open eyes to ALL that God says about this subject.
Then we don't need to speculate or presumptuously say something in pride & boastfulness, with no Biblical truth being proclaimed to contrast the lies. That is why heresy pops up, so that it can be exposed as heresy by the truth of the Scriptures!
So the process of conception, impartation of spirit & soul & growth of flesh & bones in the womb until birth is Biblical! These are only some of the verses to show this.
That people can respond in the womb is Biblical also!
Luke 1:31-44 Behold, you will CONCEIVE & GIVE BIRTH TO A SON--{spirits are not born or given in birth, physical babies are}--& you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great & will be called THE Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of HIS FATHER DAVID & He will REIGN OVER the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will NEVER end!” "How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a VIRGIN?” The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you AND the POWER of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be BORN will be called THE SON OF GOD.
Look, even Elizabeth your relative has CONCEIVED A SON in her old age & she who was called barren is in her 6th month.
FOR NOTHING WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.” When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, THE BABY LEAPED IN HER WOMB & Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women & blessed is the FRUIT of your womb! And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped FOR JOY. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.”
Just as Elizabeth your cousin has conceived a son--a physical son--so in the same way you are going to conceive a son--a physical son. The comparison is plain.
And an amazing thing is revealed in Scripture that is missed if you don't know the Greek voice & parsing of the conception of Elizabeth & the conception of Mary.
Elizabeth's conception is the Perfect Indicative ACTIVE - 3rd Person Singular. Can you imagine the active participation, after God's promise of her having a son when she was beyond childbearing--when she had intercourse with Zechariah! That wasn't passive.
But with Mary the conception is Aorist Infinitive PASSIVE--God the Father via the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary at the time of ovulation & brought about conception. Mary was passive in this. God was doing the action. God had to intervene as there was no physical man with physical seed to actively cause the conception. But it was indeed a conception & Jesus was born as a normal human baby.
How did God do it specifically? You will need to have a talk with God on that one. But it definitely was male DNA involved in a miraculous fashion in penetrating Mary's ovum to bring about conception because Mary could not have produced a male child via the DNA in her ovum.
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us & to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law.
Zechariah's now virile seed in Elizabeth's miracle ovum
conceived inside of Elizabeth. God used the normal way of fertilization in a miraculous way. The same was true for Abraham & his wife Sarah. Both became fertile when beyond childbearing, God using His normal design in a miraculous way, Isaac being from the body of Abraham & Sarah!
Remember again God's command to both Adam & Eve: "be FRUITFUL--and multiply!" It took both to procreate a human being, the fruit of their bodies joined together in fertilization to bring forth a human being.
Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
Job 31:15 Did not He who MADE ME IN THE WOMB make him? And did not One FASHION us in the womb?
Job 3:3 “Let the day perish on which I was born & the night that said, ‘A man is conceived.’
Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife & she conceived & bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man WITH THE HELP OF THE LORD.”
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children BY ONE MAN, our forefather Isaac...
Isaiah 49:5 And now the Lord says, He who FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB to be His servant... (Messianic prophecy)
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, O coastlands & give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb, FROM THE BODY OF MY MOTHER he named My name. (prophecy of the Messiah, Christ, the physical descendant of King David)
Rom 1:3 ...Regarding His Son, who was a DESCENDANT of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!
The fruit in Sarah's womb was from both she & Abraham, from their bodies. The same for Elizabeth & Zechariah. And the same was true for Mary, her body & the miracle of the power of God the Father & the Holy Spirit in bringing fertilization & conception of a normal baby boy of flesh & blood from the body of Mary, who was also THE HOLY ONE, THE SON OF GOD. Miraculous--true--but also the process of conception & normal growth in the womb & physical birth of a human being is what God used.
Remember another important point in Genesis 5:1-3: This is the written account (book) of the descendants of Adam. When God created human beings, he made them in His image ('Imago Dei'). Male & female He created them, & He blessed them. And in the day they were created, He called them man (adam-mankind).” When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son in HIS OWN LIKENESS, after HIS OWN IMAGE & he named him Seth.
Phil 2:6,7 Who existing in the form of God...emptied Himself (made Himself of no reputation), taking the form of a servant, being MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS.
Just like Seth was a physical human being made in Adam's likeness as a physical human being, so Jesus as a physical descendant of Adam & David, was also made in human likeness, physically, with flesh & bones. The Scriptures do not give anyone the liberty or presumption to say that Jesus made in human likeness was just appearing as a man but not actually being one. Scripture when viewed holistically, doesn't leave that option!
After the fall, created in God's image & likeness was corrupted, sin & death, both spiritual & physical, entered the world (Rom 5) & the whole universe was corrupted (Rom 8:1-5), because Adam's disobedience led to death & corruption. Another reason the Messiah came into the world & was physically born, 'God with us', was to bring about a new creation (Gal 5:17), being conformed to Christ's image which is the image of God. He imparts through the Holy Spirit a new image created after the likeness of God in true righteousness & holiness! (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10; Gal 6:15). He will reconcile all things to Himself & create a new heavens & earth in which righteousness dwells! Hallel YAH!