When to look for the rapture of the church

Copperhead

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That was pretty much decimated by this video below. Oh.... the video you posted, they used Ray Comfort's name and He actually disassociated himself from that video. And the guy they went to England to talk to about Darby and such, they did such a hatchet job on the editing and took everything out of context that he demanded they remove all of his comments from the video... lawsuit may be coming....

Oh... here is the complete rebuttal. It is not a trailer and you don't have to pay for the whole video like the led astray one.

 
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BABerean2

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Oh.... the video you posted, they used Ray Comfort's name and He actually disassociated himself from that video.

Can you show Ray Comfort saying that, or are we supposed to believe these two?

They start out by equating the word "tribulation" with "wrath".

Apparently they do not know that these two words are not the same in the Greek.

Here is the history of the doctrine written by a Brethren scholar.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Here is a rebuttal of the rebuttal.


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Copperhead

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Can you show Ray Comfort saying that, or are we supposed to believe these two?

Based on how it seems you asked the question, I would guess you have probably made up your own mind anyway and answered it.

The "two guys" did provide evidence of how they twisted the testimony of the pre-trib guy in England and he demanded they remove all of his comments from the video. Well, they didn't so I think that speaks more to the led astray folk's character than it does the "two guys" character. That there really damaged the character of Schimmel (spelling?) and company.

And I could also bring out other videos to rebut that rebuttal and it would become a never ending cycle.

But the evidentiary standard still has not been met by the "led astray" group to be worthy of consideration. I am surprised that the "two guys" in the rebuttal didn't mention it......

The Torah requires that for any matter to be established, it requires the testimony of two or more witnesses. The Bereans in Acts 17:11 gave us the model of that and were commended by the HS. They searched the OT to see if what Paul (NT) taught them was true. Therefore, any position on these matters has to have evidentiary support in the OT along with the NT.

I do not consider any position worth looking at without that standard being met. I am like a jury in a courtroom. If the evidentiary requirement regarding these things cannot be met, the matter is not worthy of my consideration.

And I have seen nothing substantive from any of the mid, post, pre-wrath, etc camps providing evidentiary support from the OT. Just a lot of scripture manipulation of the NT. To be fair, many pre-trib also take some liberties with the NT passages, but that doesn't negate that there is support in the OT for it.
 
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BABerean2

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To be fair, many pre-trib also take some liberties with the NT passages, but that doesn't negate that there is support in the OT for it.


The article below exposes how pretrib author Grant Jeffrey chopped up the writings of the early Church Fathers, in an effort to make your doctrine work.

In other words Jeffrey lied about what the ECF actually wrote.



Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
 
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Copperhead

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The article below exposes how pretrib author Grant Jeffrey chopped up the writings of the early Church Fathers, in an effort to make your doctrine work.

In other words Jeffrey lied about what the ECF actually wrote.



Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

My doctrine! I know I am an old Vietnam Veteran Recon Sergeant but I think the concept was developed by some guys long before I showed up.

Kinda reminds me how parents think. It is “our” child when it is good. When one parent thinks the child has messed up it then becomes “your” child.

Well I can’t accept the credit. It is not “my” doctrine, even though there are some aspects I like. I am more of a patchwork person. Most every concept has its flaws and merits. Even the Calvinism / Arminianism debate. They both are right in what they assert, but they are both wrong in what they deny.

But if it soothes your mind to fit me into a particular theological camp, that’s cool. It takes a lot more than that to make me feel intimidated.

Can’t really speak about Grant Jeffery, but Dr. Ken Johnson has done several books on the ECF writings and it seems from his work he never felt the need to do a hatchet job of editing what they said. I really haven’t looked hard, but I can’t recall anyone taking him to task on his analysis.
 
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BABerean2

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Can’t really speak about Grant Jeffery, but Dr. Ken Johnson has done several books on the ECF writings and it seems from his work he never felt the need to do a hatchet job of editing what they said.

Do you have any of these books by Dr. Ken Johnson on your bookshelf that you can use to share some quotes from the Early Church Fathers for us?

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Copperhead

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Do you have any of these books by Dr. Ken Johnson on your bookshelf that you can use to share some quotes from the Early Church Fathers for us?

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I do have some of Johnson’s books. I am out of state on business. There are quite a few videos of his lectures and such on YouTube. Not sure of what he says in a lot of them but if you want to check them out instead of waiting on me, go for it.
 
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BABerean2

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I do have some of Johnson’s books. I am out of state on business. There are quite a few videos of his lectures and such on YouTube. Not sure of what he says in a lot of them but if you want to check them out instead of waiting on me, go for it.

What the Early Church Fathers said on the subject is found below.

We do not have to buy one of Dr. Ken Johnson's books, or wait on you to find out.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.
 
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Copperhead

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What the Early Church Fathers said on the subject is found below.

We do not have to buy one of Dr. Ken Johnson's books, or wait on you to find out.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

Boy that really exhibits some Godly character! Judge something before you check it out. I am really not surprised. And I am not concerned. I did my part and pointed to one of the researchers I have read. One can lead a horse to water, but not make it drink.

You wanted me to post something from a book from Ken Johnson, but you would not check out a video lecture of his on YouTube. You never really wanted to know.
 
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BABerean2

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This argument will continue in some form or another until Jesus comes and whisks all the believers back to heaven to see their mansions! i think then, the argument will cease.


There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5.

The event is described in chapter 4, and the timing is found in chapter 5.

The verse below proves that the two chapters are connected.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

.
 
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keras

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This argument will continue in some form or another until Jesus comes and whisks all the believers back to heaven to see their mansions! i think then, the argument will cease.
I find it hard to credit, that a group of intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment. A rapture to heaven of the Church, a fable that has consumed tons of paper and ink, still totally without any sure consensus of when it could happen.
All these issues have been argued, fought over even; for a hundred plus years. Doesn't this make people question the validity of those beliefs?

But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age.
That people are unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
Then: 2 Thess 2:12 So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

Fellow Christians, my aim and desire is for all of you and as many as I can reach, to be presented with the scriptural Truth; the undeniable facts of prophecy and a common sense, logical sequence of what will happen in the near future to all of us.

It is a message of hope and God's Promise of protection during a short time of difficulty, and then how He will mightily Bless His faithful people.


All the prophesied events and the full story of the future are set out in 800+ short articles, free to read at: logostelos.info
 
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_Dave_

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But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age

That people are unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
Then: 2 Thess 2:12 So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

Keras, I'm sure you realize, and it should go without saying, that there are those of us who say the same exact thing about people who hold to your particular interpretation of Scripture.

What should lay the argument to rest, however, is the sweet spot in eschatological Scripture that is Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. Paul was a pre-tribber. He taught the Thessalonians about the rapture and the Day of the Lord. They believed him to the degree that when someone gave them a false message about them already being in the Great Tribulation and missing the rapture they thought Paul had lied to them.

There simply is no getting around that absolutely clear, unambiguous message that God gave to Paul to give to us.

'Course, as always, others may disagree.
 
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keras

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That’s because you haven’t figured out the difference between justification and sanctification.
Please explain that difference.
While you are at it, prove your beliefs with scripture. Of what earthly use are we, if we go to heaven?
 
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Copperhead

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Keras, I'm sure you realize, and it should go without saying, that there are those of us who say the same exact thing about people who hold to your particular interpretation of Scripture.

What should lay the argument to rest, however, is the sweet spot in eschatological Scripture that is Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. Paul was a pre-tribber. He taught the Thessalonians about the rapture and the Day of the Lord. They believed him to the degree that when someone gave them a false message about them already being in the Great Tribulation and missing the rapture they thought Paul had lied to them.

There simply is no getting around that absolutely clear, unambiguous message that God gave to Paul to give to us.

'Course, as always, others may disagree.

Especially since it is supported in the OT.
 
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Copperhead

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Please explain that difference.
While you are at it, prove your beliefs with scripture. Of what earthly use are we, if we go to heaven?

What of all the years between Shavuot 32AD and the GT period? You seem to be implying that out of the last 2000 years, only the 7 of the GT means anything. I am sure that is not what you meant, but it comes across that way.
 
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BABerean2

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Paul was a pre-tribber. He taught the Thessalonians about the rapture and the Day of the Lord.



Those is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5.
It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.


.
 
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keras

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What of all the years between Shavuot 32AD and the GT period? You seem to be implying that out of the last 2000 years, only the 7 of the GT means anything. I am sure that is not what you meant, but it comes across that way.
Your reply bears no relation to my question.
We have had nearly 2000 years since 32 AD. It is the Church age, completed by 2032.
The final 7 years of this Church age will be the prophesied seven year treaty, Daniel 9:27, of which the last half of 42 months will be the Great tribulation. Revelation 13:5, of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
 
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