Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

createdtoworship · Mar 10, 2019

Heavan-Rex said:
i did some math and saw one "nice" person dose about 9000septrillion sins a day. every step is sinful everystep you kill billions to trillions of little life forms. yes hell fire for eternity is a bit extreem but on other side of coin eternal life and love is also an extreem reward.

the point is, in the Bible eternal life, and eternal hell fire use the same word.

createdtoworship · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Good grief! Talk about not what the scripture is saying at all!!

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Hell is moved to meet the at they coming---God will raise the wicked dead after the 1000 years to meet their judgement.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
And they will be asking Lucifer the question "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

This says not one word about eternal burning hell or immortality of the soul. Immortal souls is never mentioned in the bible.

Ezekiel 32 is called a Lament over Pharaoh and Egypt---says not one word about everlasting burring hell or immortal souls.

Lazarus is a parable--and the point that Jesus makes is clear---
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is no communicating between the dead and the living, or between the wicked dead and the saved dead--a gulf fixed. If you want to believe the good go to the bossom of Abraham, go ahead--that is one big bossom. A wet fingertip in that kind of burning torment would do nothing! It would burn up before the tongue could be reached!!

I was curious about what you think about verses in revelation:

posted thursday:
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

gradyll said:
the point is, in the Bible eternal life, and eternal hell fire use the same word.

And again---so does Jude:

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? But their punishment is eternal.

createdtoworship · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
And again---so does Jude:

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? But their punishment is eternal.

but as I said in my post from thursday, sodom and gomorrah were a type of eternal fire, we know this from the new testament.

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

createdtoworship · Mar 10, 2019

Mark 14:21
but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.

this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?

I await your responses.

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

createdtoworship · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
In order to believe in an eternally burning hell, you have to believe in the immortality of the soul for which there is no biblical proof--it comes from the Greeks. You also must then believe that God did not tell the truth to Adam and Eve, for He never told them that if they ate of the tree, they would burn in hell forever, but only that they would die. Why would God withhold such information from them?

mmksparbud said:
And again---so does Jude:

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? But their punishment is eternal.

this post addresses the eternality of the soul, and sodom and gomorrah:

Matthew 25:46

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.

Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

Revelation 14:11

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?

Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaneously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...

Rev 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!

This not part of the three arguments for eternal hell, but it is a separate argument that likens the fire from Sodom and Gomorrah to literal hell.

Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?

Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.

Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.

SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.

no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.

vinsight4u · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

gradyll said:
I was curious about what you think about verses in revelation:

posted thursday:
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

gradyll said:
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Yes, their SMOKE goes up forever. Smoke goes up and it just keeps going up. Doesn't say they are burning eternally.

gradyll said:
but as I said in my post from thursday, sodom and gomorrah were a type of eternal fire, we know this from the new testament.

That's right---and they are still not burning---that is the type of hell there will be--the fire does eventually go out.

gradyll said:
Mark 14:21
but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.

this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?

I await your responses.

Why would it would it be confusing---He will pay at the judgement day---he will burn. Just not forever.

I am getting lost---I need to go back I think I missed some things.

Der Alte · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
You need to reread the whole passage without your preconceived ideas.

You presume to lecture me on my understanding of scripture and preconceived ideas and you do the very thing which you accuse me of. The person, not Satan, Isa 14, the whole passage, is about is identified in vs. 4. As I said, the king of Babylon. You ignored that and assumed that Lucifer refers to Satan.
Satan did not rule nations vs. 6

Isa 14:4-19
(4) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(5) The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
(6) He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
(7) The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
(8) Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?…..

The Jews considered this passage to be factual.
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

(11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(16) They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(17) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(18) All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
(19) But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.[/quote]

Satan was not a man. vs. 16

Just read the passages you quote---these say nothing about eternity--these are raised at the judgement day -- don't just read what you want, but the verses before and after.

Perhaps you should go back and take your own advice. I was not talking about eternity. I was talking about the wicked dead in sheol/hades being conscious.

Jesus was not making a statement about the state of the dead with His parable.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Though one rose from the dead, not that they do.

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say here.I don't see how this contradicts anything I said. Jesus was most certainly talking about the state of the dead, the rich guy and Lazarus were both dead. Perhaps they don't rise for the dead but Jesus did and they ignored Him. And notice Jesus said that neither rich guy or Lazarus could go to the other side.

You use more words than anyone I know to say so little. Quite a talent, actually.

While you say nothing at all just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

vinsight4u said:
Check back to the time of the burning bush, that is when Abraham was alive. It is not about eternity, but about the soul now.

I don't understand what you are saying here at all.

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

OK!!! Can you give me time to catch up?? I can't type that fast my fingers are numb and I can't control them very well!!! I'm still trying to finish post #63!!

Der Alte · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
And again---so does Jude:
Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? But their punishment is eternal.

The adjective "aionios"/eternal only occurs once in this verse. This adjective modifies only one noun, i.e. "fire." The verse does not say "eternal vengeance," or "eternal punishment." Is the fire still burning today? Who knows. It was burning in heaven when God cast it down and we didn't see it.

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

gradyll said:
I was curious about what you think about verses in revelation:

posted thursday:
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

You need to back up a bit.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When Jesus comes for the saved---The false prophet, and the beast are destroyed with the brightness of His coming. They, and all the living wicked are killed. The wicked dead remain dead.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is not until after the resurrection of the wicked, after the 1000 years, that they all go into the lake of fire. That is when that battle is fought between Satan and all the wicked and God and His army.

What you don't understand is that the pit that Satan and his angels are bound to is this earth. When Jesus comes, the saved dead are resurrected,and together with the living saved all go to heaven for the 1000 years. The living wicked are all killed, the wicked dead remain dead--and the whole earth laqys is desolation, empty and destroyed.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

The earth has a 1000 year sabbath rest. Which goes with the Jewish 7th year land sabbath.

Exo 23:10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
Exo 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
Lev 25:4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

6 days work, the 7th day sabbath, 6 years the land is worked, the 7th year of rest--6000 years, then the whole earth has a 1000 year rest. Satan and his angels will have an empty planet, th

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

gradyll said:
this post addresses the eternality of the soul, and sodom and gomorrah:

Matthew 25:46

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.

Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.

secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.

thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

Augustine has not the authority to change the word of God. He voiced his opinion--I obviously do not share it. And actually, the sentence is the same---it is eternal life for the saved--it is eternal death to the wicked. Not eternal dying.

The bible doesn't say Satan is eternal. He and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire and be destroyed. The beast and the false prophet are killed at the 2nd coming of Christ--see post #77.

SkyWriting · Mar 10, 2019

gradyll said:
I was asked to move this thread, so that annihilationists could reply so here it is:

Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it? (I apologize already for the length of this first post) please bear with me.

(this is part one, the logical reason for eternal hell)
Part two and three are the Biblical reasons for Hell.

"SINCE THE BIBLE IS A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT HELL IS A LITERAL PLACE?"

The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a “highly” symbolic one, is a false premise. Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism. Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man’s relationship to his Creator. Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan. As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn’t make the Bible a symbolic book. It is simply a book that contains some symbolism.

In November, 1993, evangelist Billy Graham told Time magazine that he didn’t believe in a literal burning hell. He said that the Biblical hell was “possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be—not fire, but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched.” Graham had no Scriptural authority for making such an assumption. A preacher’s duty is to preach all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not speculate about things that might “possibly” be an “illustration.” To make matters worse, Graham “air conditioned” hell by describing it as merely a “thirst for God,” something that wouldn’t move any sinner to repentance. Why didn’t Jesus describe hell this way, rather than leaving its occupants smoking with fire and brimstone? Graham’s symbolism is unscriptural symbolism, as is that of many other preachers.

When the Bible uses symbolism, it is quite obvious. Jesus once said, “I am the door.” (John 10:9) That statement cannot possibly be taken literally, so it must be taken as symbolism. He also said, “I am the good shepherd.” (John 10:14) Jesus wasn’t literally a shepherd, His followers aren’t literally sheep, and literal wolves (John 10:12) are not a threat to Christians. Those are symbolic terms because they can’t be literal.

Hell, on the other hand, can be literal. Is it possible that a Christian can be a sheep with four legs in a pasture? No, that’s not possible. Is it possible that a literal lake of fire can exist somewhere? Yes, just open any standard text book on physical science, and you can see a lake of fire. For that matter, just run an Internet search on “earth’s core,” and you’ll see plenty.

The term “hell” occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally. Every time hell fire is mentioned in the new testament or old, the literal greek or hebrew word is literal fire. Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” To say that “hell” in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains. Are they symbolic as well? “Maybe they are,” one might suggest. Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible. If that’s the case, then why bother reading it at all? Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain. There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application. The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it’s possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal. If it’s impossible, then it’s symbolic (“I am the door,” etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your attention.

(part three is a section answering some critics of eternal hell)

Is Hell Forever? (definition of aion, aionion)

Universalists and Jehovah's witnesses state that Hell is not eternal because aion means age not forever. Many state that because Aion can mean temporary period of time in greek and not forever that aion ALWAYS means temporary! Wrong! . That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. Just because aion means temporal in one instance does not mean it means that in every instance.

if aion universally means temporary then matthew 25:46 states that eternal life is only temporary because it's the same word for both.

Secondly,

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com

If and only If aion means temporary there would be aspects of God that would be temporary because the same greek word is used for God (aion)

The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)

The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)

God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)

God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)

God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)

God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

ABOVE SECTION BY DON HEWEY OF Temporarily Disabled

DEFINITION OF "aionion" IN OUR VIEW OF HELL

BELOW SECTION BY Matt Slick of carm.org

Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.

To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is greek aionion"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.

With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.

This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)

The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."

The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.

Time is an aspect of a deteriorating physical world.
There is no "time" after this world.

"Never ending", "eternal", or whatever you want to call it.
There is no "time".

This solves all the "problems" people have with eternity.

Der Alte · Mar 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Enoch, Judith, the Hebrew canon (of which Enoch nor Judith is amongst) did not exist in the garden of Eden. Just Adam and Eve, God and Satan--and their angels.

What is this supposed to mean? None of the books of the OT were in the garden.

The Apocrypha includes, but is not limited to, works such as Sirach (Ben Sira), Maccabees, Judith, the book of Enoch, Jubilees, the story of Susanna, and Baruch.
What Is the Jewish Approach to the Apocrypha?

What you have quoted is the opinion of one person. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as authoritative to support the belief in hell. 55 Jewish scholars completed and compiled the JE.

mmksparbud · Mar 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
You presume to lecture me on my understanding of scripture and preconceived ideas and you do the very thing which you accuse me of. The person, not Satan, Isa 14, the whole passage, is about is identified in vs. 4. As I said, the king of Babylon. You ignored that and assumed that Lucifer refers to Satan.
Satan did not rule nations vs. 6
Isa 14:4-19
(4) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(5) The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
(6) He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
(7) The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
(8) Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
(11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(16) They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(17) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(18) All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
(19) But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Satan was not a man. vs. 16[/QUOTE]

You presume to tell me what it says--I resume to tell you what it says--just fair!
If you wish to believe that the King of Babylon wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, that he fell from heaven, and that he was called the son of the morning--ok. I do not believe that and will firmly stand by Lucifer, who had been called the
ל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

That was before he fell after that he was Satan, the accuser. It's a free country---so far--you can believe what you prefer. No, Satan was not a man--He was the covering cherub before he was thrown out of heaven.

I also believe that this obviously is also about Satan--Lucifer--and not the King of Tyrus. I'm sure you believe otherwise. Here again, the King of Tyrus was never in the garden of Eden, nor was he an anointed cherub on the mountain of God.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

no it just means death

it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire.

it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

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