Battle of Dual Covenant Theology and the Charge of "Replacement Theology"

Michael Collum said:

The main heresy is saying we're still in the old covenant, this is effectively saying to Jesus that he died in vain.

Click to expand...

Well said.
As Jesus said here:

Luke 5:
37 "And no one is casting young<3501> wine into Old skins, if yet no surely shall be ruined the young wine of the skins,
and it shall be being poured-out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but young wine into New<2537> skins is to be cast
and both are preserved together.
39 And no one drinking Old immediately is willing young,
for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'".
[Matthew 9:17 Mark 2:22]

Galatians 4 is one of the most covenantle chapters of the NT [outside of Hebrews].

Galatians 4
3So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world
8However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, why do you turn back again to the weak and miserable elemental principles, to which you desire to be in bondage all over again?
10You observe days, months, seasons, and years.
11I am afraid for you, that I might have wasted my labor for you.
24These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar.
25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and is being elemental to the Jerusalem that exists now,
for she is in bondage with her children.
26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 8
13 in the to be saying `New<2537>,' He hath made Old the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance.
===============================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 23:38 Behold! left desolate to you is your House
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.

Mark 13:1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”

Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings it has been adorned
==================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and leveled with the ground.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

Revelation 18:19
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>. [Matthew 23:38]

keras said:

We Christians are the ones who produce the fruit. Galatians 5:22-23
We are, therefore; also the 'nation', but not yet as a coherent people group, being still scattered among the nations.
This is soon to change. After the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer, Revelation 6:12-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, we will be motivated to travel to and live in the holy Land; Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, all of the area from the Nile to the Euphrates, that the Lord will make into a garden Land for His people. Isaiah 32:15-18, Isaiah 49:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 51:3, +

We Christians, all who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will live in peace and prosperity in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26
We will choose a leader; Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11 and when an attacking army comes down from the North, as we live peacefully without defenses, Ezekiel 38:10-12, the Lord will destroy them for us. Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:20

All as prophesied, all things that must happen, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

Click to expand...

The parable, Matthew 21:33-41, conveys husbandmen who tend the vineyard for its fruit. The nation would appropriately convey the husbandmen, Ephraim, as the gentiles, who are gathered from all nations, rightly represent the fruit. Ephraim is the nation that God scatters to the nations in Zechariah 10:7-9. This also corresponds to the children of Israel that are sifted in Amos 9:9-12 that they may possess the heathen that are called by Christ's name, which is revealed as "Israel" in Isaiah 49:3. And of course, they also correspond to the woman who is barren and desolate and inherits the gentiles in Isaiah 54:1-3.

I do not agree the church endures the wrath of God (Romans 5:9), which is the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:18), but I do agree they must go through the tribulations that are the antitype of the autumnal festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, starting with the seven seals. My work establishes the correspondence of the apocalyptic horsemen of the seven seals with the historical accounts of the Protestant's rise to prominence and their termination of the churches' influence in our modern-day commerce. Moreover, it establishes the correspondence of the autumnal festivals, regarding the final judgment, and the apocalyptic horsemen of the seven seals.

Jerryhuerta said:

I have to say, Berean2, Douggg does have the correct perception of Replacement theology, while you have the correct perception that the gentiles that go by the name of the Servant in Isaiah 49 are party to the New Covenant.

Click to expand...

There is no 'replacement' of anyone, anywhere.
The true 'church, congregation, ekkelasia, kahal'; call God's people what you like, have always been those with faith in God.
Ancient Israel was never the sole people of God, many people joined them, Ruth being a great example.
Today, it is plain that the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are not the people that God wants in His holy Land, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates, given to Abraham so long ago.
Bible prophesy is clear; soon there will be a dramatic clearance and cleansing in all of the Middle East, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +, and we Christians, from every race, nation and language, will go to live in our inheritance, being the people God always wanted there, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Jerryhuerta said:

The historical understanding, or Replacement theology, doesn't have the scriptural foundation that Ephraim has. It lacks the grammatical-historical hermeneutic. It has the Old and New Testaments at odds with each other. It disregards or spiritualizes the Old Testament. In the historical perception, the Church and the Gentiles are appellations that are theological nonsequiturs; the Church is comprised of people from all nations; it is not a nation, singular. Only the theological perception that Ephraim is the nation bearing the fruit has the true scriptural backing.

Paul declared the fulfillment of Isaiah 54:1 in Galatians 4:27, but the historical perception refuses to deal with the grammatical-historical implications. The grammatical-historical intent of Isaiah’s initial prophecy was that the divorced, barren, desolate and widowhood circumstance of the ten northern tribes would not continue, but in the future their circumstance would be reversed and it would be the nation that inherits the gentiles, verse 3, which inaugurates the promise to Abraham that in him “shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 12:3).

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43)
​

The gentiles represent the fruit, not the nation!

Click to expand...

As Brother BAB2 has earlier shown, there is a single New Testament reference to Ephraim, in John 11:54 as the name of a city.

The tribe of Ephraim is unsaid, unseen, and unknown in the New Testament. It has no theological or prophetic significance therein.

Most nations today are “nations of nations”. That is, their citizens are multiracial, reflecting their origins in nations other than those in which they have settled.

The same is true of the Church, and has been since its New Testament beginnings (Romans 16:25,26; Colossians 1:5,6,23). It is one Nation comprised of many nations. The same was true of Old Testament Israel, which was multiracial from its beginning (Genesis 17:12), and throughout its history (Exodus 12:48,49; Leviticus 19:34; Numbers 15:15; Deuteronomy 10:19; Psalm 146:9; Isaiah 14:1; Ezekiel 47:22). It was thus typical of the New Testament Church which would ultimately transcend and succeed it.

Fruits do not produce a nation, but a nation does produce fruits.

That Nation is the New Testament Church, comprised of the redeemed of every nation, tribe, and tongue, whose members, in faith and obedience to their Head, produce the fruit(s) of the Spirit.

Douggg said:

Who is "we" ? And what is the old covenant of the "we" ?

Click to expand...

I don't understand what you're getting at.

Israel was to be the Covenant Son, they failed;[during the first Exodus]
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jesus is the TRUE Israel.
Jesus is the True Covenant Son.


isa49;
Isaiah 49 King James Version (KJV)
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lordhath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Jesus Christ is the new Exodus
All who are In union with Christ are Israel

jgr said:

As Brother BAB2 has earlier shown, there is a single New Testament reference to Ephraim, in John 11:54 as the name of a city.

The tribe of Ephraim is unsaid, unseen, and unknown in the New Testament. It has no theological or prophetic significance therein.

Most nations today are “nations of nations”. That is, their citizens are multiracial, reflecting their origins in nations other than those in which they have settled.

The same is true of the Church, and has been since its New Testament beginnings (Romans 16:25,26; Colossians 1:5,6,23). It is one Nation comprised of many nations. The same was true of Old Testament Israel, which was multiracial from its beginning (Genesis 17:12), and throughout its history (Exodus 12:48,49; Leviticus 19:34; Numbers 15:15; Deuteronomy 10:19; Psalm 146:9; Isaiah 14:1; Ezekiel 47:22). It was thus typical of the New Testament Church which would ultimately transcend and succeed it.

Fruits do not produce a nation, but a nation does produce fruits.

That Nation is the New Testament Church, comprised of the redeemed of every nation, tribe, and tongue, whose members, in faith and obedience to their Head, produce the fruit(s) of the Spirit.

Click to expand...

The Trinity is also unsaid, unseen, and unknown in the New Testament, yet people have developed theology in support of it. Its truth relies on theology, not on its plain literal expression in scripture. Your reasoning is flawed; the overwhelming theological evidence substantiates that Jacob/Israel/Joseph/Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit in Matthew 21:43. Rather than rely on flawed arguments, deal with the scriptural evidence, the grammatical-historical hermeneutic presented that clearly establishes that Ephriam is restored to God through the body of Christ (Romans 7:1-4), while Judah is cast off, broken from the olive tree, as the builders ordained to reject the cornerstone. Your Replacement theology is heresy.

keras said:

There is no 'replacement' of anyone, anywhere.
The true 'church, congregation, ekkelasia, kahal'; call God's people what you like, have always been those with faith in God.
Ancient Israel was never the sole people of God, many people joined them, Ruth being a great example.
Today, it is plain that the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are not the people that God wants in His holy Land, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates, given to Abraham so long ago.
Bible prophesy is clear; soon there will be a dramatic clearance and cleansing in all of the Middle East, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +, and we Christians, from every race, nation and language, will go to live in our inheritance, being the people God always wanted there, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Click to expand...

Never said I agreed with Douggg, only that he had the correct perception of Replacement theology.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Israel was to be the Covenant Son, they failed;[during the first Exodus]
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jesus is the TRUE Israel.
Jesus is the True Covenant Son.


isa49;
Isaiah 49 King James Version (KJV)
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lordhath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Jesus Christ is the new Exodus
All who are In union with Christ are Israel

Click to expand...

Christ is the Servant that is tasked to "raise up the tribes of Jacob" at the time the "nation" Judah is ordained to abhor the Redeemer (Isaiah 49:6-7). Clearly, Jacob is also Ephraim that is desolate, captive, and removing to and fro (v.21), which we also see in Isaiah 54:1. The Servant is also tasked to be a light to the Gentiles, that he may be God's salvation unto the end of the earth (v. 6). All of which was ordained for the first advent.

Michael Collum said:

I don't understand what you're getting at.

Click to expand...

You had made the statement...

"The main heresy is saying we're still in the old covenant, this is effectively saying to Jesus that he died in vain."

Since you wrote "still in the old covenant", it implies the "we" whoever you are referring to was under some "old covenant".

So I am asking you who is the "we" and what is the old covenant that the we were in?

Are you a Jew who came to believe in Jesus? Gentiles were never under the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Douggg said:

You had made the statement...

"The main heresy is saying we're still in the old covenant, this is effectively saying to Jesus that he died in vain."

Since you wrote "still in the old covenant", it implies the "we" whoever you are referring to was under some "old covenant".

So I am asking you who is the "we" and what is the old covenant that the we were in?

Are you a Jew who came to believe in Jesus? Gentiles were never under the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining.

That's not entirely true, there were a lot of jewish converts from gentile nations. People who choose to place themselves under the law, are under the law.

Jerryhuerta said:

The Trinity is also unsaid, unseen, and unknown in the New Testament, yet people have developed theology in support of it. Its truth relies on theology, not on its plain literal expression in scripture. Your reasoning is flawed; the overwhelming theological evidence substantiates that Jacob/Israel/Joseph/Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit in Matthew 21:43. Rather than rely on flawed arguments, deal with the scriptural evidence, the grammatical-historical hermeneutic presented that clearly establishes that Ephriam is restored to God through the body of Christ (Romans 7:1-4), while Judah is cast off, broken from the olive tree, as the builders ordained to reject the cornerstone. Your Replacement theology is heresy.

Click to expand...

“Trinity” does not explicitly appear in Scripture. “Ephraim” does. We are therefore compelled to abide by what is said, and what is not said, concerning it.

If “Ephraim” can explicitly appear as the name of a New Testament city, then there is no reason that it should not also explicitly appear in association with what you espouse, which is of far greater significance, if what you espouse is Scriptural.

It does not so appear.

Such espousal thus constitutes an importation of “interpretation by imagination” of the type so frequently seen in the dispensational genre.


What is replacement theology, and how is it heresy?

Jerryhuerta said:

Christ is the Servant that is tasked to "raise up the tribes of Jacob" at the time the "nation" Judah is ordained to abhor the Redeemer (Isaiah 49:6-7). Clearly, Jacob is also Ephraim that is desolate, captive, and removing to and fro (v.21), which we also see in Isaiah 54:1. The Servant is also tasked to be a light to the Gentiles, that he may be God's salvation unto the end of the earth (v. 6). All of which was ordained for the first advent.

Click to expand...

Quoted in gal4

Michael Collum said:

Thanks for explaining.

That's not entirely true, there were a lot of jewish converts from gentile nations. People who choose to place themselves under the law, are under the law.

Click to expand...

Persons converting to Judaism are not considered gentiles any longer but Jews (according to Judaism), when they place themselves under the law. To be under the law, a person has to be part of the people who part of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Gentiles were never part of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

________________________________________________________

Old covenant and new covenant are terms pertaining to Israel.

The gospel - the good news - forgiveness of sins and eternal life pertains to the Church.

BABerean2 said:

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Click to expand...

Which gentiles were not part of the old covenant; therefore, new covenant does not apply to gentiles. Old covenant and new covenant are terms applying to Israel.

Christians are heirs to the Abrahamic covenant, which preceded the Mt. Sinai covenant, made so by receiving the gospel - the good news of forgiveness of sins and gift of eternal life, redemption of the soul and redemption of the body.

Douggg said:

Gentiles were never part of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Click to expand...

They were part of every covenant from the beginning of covenant history.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

jgr said:

They were part of every covenant from the beginning of covenant history.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Click to expand...

Genesis 17 is referring to Abraham.